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WN Pilots, FAs To Meet On 738 Fleet  
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3571 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8295 times:

Southwest pilots are concerned about productivity issues when WN is retiring older lower capacity aircraft and replacing them with higher capacity. FAs say if type is added their contract automatically reopens for negotiation but are excited.

http://atwonline.com/news/other-headlines/2010-9-02?cid=nl_atw_dn

Doesn't the 738 add jobs for FAs going from 3 to 4 cabin crew?


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

I understand the pilots concerns on this... possibly WN not needing as many pilots, but in reality in THIS situation, what are the odds of the pilots throwing a wrench into things? Is this something they can work out?


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

I don't really see WN cutting frequencies just because they added 50ish seats to a route but I could be wrong.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1973 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8147 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
I don't really see WN cutting frequencies just because they added 50ish seats to a route but I could be wrong.


The -300s are starting to have some issues and are costing quite a bit. So I think that WN may retire a -300 for each -800 they get. If that's the case then there shouldn't be a problem with needing pilots. However, if WN wanted to keep the number of seats and reduce airplanes, then 4 -800s could do the job of 5 -300s, presuming 175 seats on an -800.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineasuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8115 times:

The larger aircraft will help them squeeze as much capacity as they can out of slot controlled airports.

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13649 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8081 times:
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Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 3):
if WN wanted to keep the number of seats and reduce airplanes, then 4 -800s could do the job of 5 -300s

  

And this is precisely the concern the pilots have; WN could theoretically fly the same number of ASMs with fewer airframes, meaning the potential for fewer pilot jobs.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8061 times:

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 4):
The larger aircraft will help them squeeze as much capacity as they can out of slot controlled airports.

When you look at the number of a/c (400+), crews and existing schedules, the slot issue at a handful of airport is the least of their concerns. WN's entire business plan will be affected, I do not think they will be getting a sub fleet of a/c and crews just to serve slot restricted airports, definately not productive and efficient. Once they start down the road of larger a/c it will be fleet wide, even though it will take years to replace the entire fleet, the consequences of that are huge compared to slot restrictions.
This may be a good indication of where the base 737 replacement a/c will start, at least seat wise.


Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
I don't really see WN cutting frequencies just because they added 50ish seats to a route but I could be wrong.

Based on their existing load factors, maintaining the same frequency with more empty seats is not a good idea. WN's business is frequency which naturally results in lower load factors, if 50+ seats are empty why carry around and pay the extra f/a, unfortunately, the extra f/a is mandated based on seat not pax count.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 1):
I understand the pilots concerns on this... possibly WN not needing as many pilots, but in reality in THIS situation, what are the odds of the pilots throwing a wrench into things?

Pilot counts will decrease over time if larger a/c are introduced into the fleet, just as f/a counts will increase, both are concerned with jobs and the end result of larger a/c is certain, how you get there is the tricky part.
In an ideal world simply retraining the pilots as f/a's would solve the problem.


User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

Well, it looks like this order is one step closer to reality!

User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1074 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

I see it as a mixed fleet in the future. There is a place for the 700 based on right sizing; and a place for the 800 as well based on right sizing.

User currently offlinepink77W From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7613 times:

Fewer pilots, but higher profits, which means more pilots.

User currently offlineWNcrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7536 times:

I "see" what the pilots are saying.... but isn't it better to have a job that's secure than to be worried about how fast your seniority is moving? At least that's how I feel personally. We can't always be moving up at the same pace... it's just not realistic.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinejreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7314 times:

Besides aren't the 300's flown on shorter routes, anyway? They wouldn't use an 800 on a short route just to replace one flight!

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7161 times:

Quoting WNcrew (Reply 10):
I "see" what the pilots are saying.... but isn't it better to have a job that's secure than to be worried about how fast your seniority is moving? At least that's how I feel personally. We can't always be moving up at the same pace... it's just not realistic.

Indeed. Also, I suspect this wouldn't be a big problem since you could just slow down hiring and let people retire on their own schedule.

On the other hand, adding the 738 doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in payroll. It could even boost it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5193 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7116 times:

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 11):
Besides aren't the 300's flown on shorter routes, anyway? They wouldn't use an 800 on a short route just to replace one flight!

Its about capacity, and 300s are used all throughout the system.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6313 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
On the other hand, adding the 738 doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in payroll. It could even boost it.

Indeed. I wonder whether the pilots - regardless of what they say - are really after a higher pay rate for the 738.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2670 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Southwest pilots are concerned about productivity issues when WN is retiring older lower capacity aircraft and replacing them with higher capacity.

Sounds like the pilot's term is a little off - I'd not use the term "productivity". Productivity increases if each pilot carries more passengers. So it sounds like WN pilots may be interested in keeping the productivity lower with 73G, 733 and 735 aircraft.

Obviously, to keep WN efficient, 738 aircraft would be flown by the same pilots as 73G, 733 and 735 aircraft, making an increase in pay a nightmare to schedule and/or tabulate.

If the pilots want higher pay for the 738, then it would only make sense if they get less pay for flying the 735. Does anyone know if WN cuts pay for 735 flying?

[Edited 2010-09-02 18:18:33]

User currently offlineWNcrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 15):
Does anyone know if WN cuts pay for 735 flying?

No they do not.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

Quoting WNcrew (Reply 16):
No they do not.

Has WN ever had multiple pilot pay scales? I'm wondering about the 727 days...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineWNcrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Quoting WNcrew (Reply 16):
No they do not.

Has WN ever had multiple pilot pay scales? I'm wondering about the 727 days...

I actually don't know anything beyond their current contract, and even then my knowledge is limited as I'm a FA. I just know now that fleet-wise it's all the same across the board.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4660 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

WN still has 735's ?


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3086 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
WN still has 735's ?

25 of them.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

I'd like to make a comparison between the current pilot position and a previous position involving WN's customer service agents and see what people think.

Pilots - bigger planes
Customer Service Agents - check-in kiosks

Isn't the concept the same - doing more with less?
Full disclosure - I am a WN CSA.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5079 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

WN could use the 800! Why not? Put them on routes that support it, and bam, it makes the company more money. Makes total sense to me.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4508 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting asuflyer05 (Reply 4):
The larger aircraft will help them squeeze as much capacity as they can out of slot controlled airports.

Is it just me, or did a lot of people ignore this comment? That's why WN would bother with larger aircraft to begin with--pack more pax into airports where they are capacity-limited, by either slots (say LGA) or maybe by gate space (like LAX, where WN has wanted to add more capacity). Thus more profits, and certainly not fewer pilot jobs. There's no practical reason otherwise. Why on earth, for example, would they want to unnecessarily reduce frequency by replacing a larger number of smaller aircraft with a smaller number of larger aircraft? It makes no sense in their business plan.

And given the new need to fill 18 daily departures at EWR, WN may not be "actively retiring" as many planes as they might have thought a few months ago. Another airport where 738's might be helpful.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2670 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 23):
Why on earth, for example, would they want to unnecessarily reduce frequency by replacing a larger number of smaller aircraft with a smaller number of larger aircraft? It makes no sense in their business plan.

Maybe to make a larger profit. They have numerous markets where there is so much frequency that removing a flight would not create much of a hole in the schedule but save operating costs which would be offset by minimal extra operating cost of a 738 vs. 73G.
I think introduction of the 738 would be at least a slight change to the business model.


25 OyKIE : It is nice to see that WN management meets with their employees this early in the process. They have yet to decide if they will actually buy the 738,
26 par13del : Yes, the concept is the same. Devils advocate, the primary difference is that if the CSA's go on strike temp staff can keep the planes flying, if the
27 Cubsrule : LGA operates as a "true spoke," though - and that's somewhere the 738s may go.
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