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Possibility Of Southwest B738s To Hawaii?  
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13288 times:

In a previous discussion, the possibility of SWA flying to Hawaii from it's CA destinations was discussed: Southwest In.. Hawaii? (by MrSkyGuy May 5 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Now with SWA in discussions to acquire Boeing 738s, do you think the likelihood of SWA finally testing Hawaii are stronger? Granted the 738s are being pursued to improve seat count to airports with limited space and/or slots where growth is constrained, but part of me believes that while this is true it's also a great excuse to introduce the new fleet type which could then be used for alternate capabilities (such as Hawaii, the Caribbean, etc).

Before the naysayers start slinging the "never gonna happen" mud, consider that SWA is no longer the airline that avoids congested areas, refuses direct legacy competition, etc.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12951 times:

Bringing the 738 on board really doesn't change anything as far as Hawaii goes. The 73G's are more than capable and they've still not made the move. The costs involved with ETOPS certification and equipping the aircraft for overwater ops, basically creating a subfleet, doesn't fit the business model. Especially when most of the seats will be award seats!! There's bigger fish still to fry than Hawaii.

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12923 times:

Does the 737-800 have the legs?

AS uses only 737-700 and still has to stop in OAK several times a year.

Looks like ATA used to use the -800? How did that go in the Winter?

Anyone else fly the -800 to Hawaii?


User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2058 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12786 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
Does the 737-800 have the legs?

SY has flown their 737-800's to HNL from IWA and VCV, on DOD flights.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12773 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
AS uses only 737-700 and still has to stop in OAK several times a year.

Actually just the opposite, AS uses only the 737-800 on flights to Hawaii. I don't think their 73Gs are even ETOPS certified.

Quoting catdaddy63 (Reply 2):
Bringing the 738 on board really doesn't change anything as far as Hawaii goes.

Operationally, no. Economically, it certainly does change things.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12754 times:
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Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
AS uses only 737-700

I've never seen an Alaska 737-700 on a Hawaii route. They use the -800.


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12690 times:
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Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
AS uses only 737-700 and still has to stop in OAK several times a year.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Actually just the opposite, AS uses only the 737-800 on flights to Hawaii. I don't think their 73Gs are even ETOPS certified.
Quoting clickhappy (Reply 6):
I've never seen an Alaska 737-700 on a Hawaii route. They use the -800.

That's right. AS only uses those 73H's that are ETOPS. Not all of the AS -800's are ETOPS. None of the 73G's are ETOPS, nor do they plan retrofitting or obtain any. I believe the remainder of the AS 738's to be delivered are ETOPS.

Quoting ADent (Reply 3):
Does the 737-800 have the legs?

Of course! ATA flew 73H's to Hawaii from OAK. Westjet flies 738's regularly between YVR-Hawaii. Finally AS flies 73H's from SEA/PDX/SMF/OAK/SJC/SAN-Hawaii.

Does CO still fly SNA-Hawaii or LAX-Hawaii using 737NG's?


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12615 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Does CO still fly SNA-Hawaii or LAX-Hawaii using 737NG's?

I think so, but I thought they were using -900ERs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9664 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12469 times:
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Was Air Pacific the first airline to send 737's from Hawaii to North America?

User currently onlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12443 times:

I do believe that if WN orders 738s, they will come EOW.


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12399 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Does CO still fly SNA-Hawaii or LAX-Hawaii using 737NG's?

I think so, but I thought they were using -900ERs.

CO uses the 737-700 SNA-HNL.

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 9):
Was Air Pacific the first airline to send 737's from Hawaii to North America?

I believe Aloha started service to the mainland in February 2000 using the 737-700. Air Pacific began NAN-HNL-YVR with the 737-800 in October 2000. The HNL-YVR sector was dropped at the end of November 2008.


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12339 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
I believe Aloha started service to the mainland in February 2000 using the 737-700.

Right, and to make that even more impressive.. they operated it from John Wayne. Hard to imagine a B737-700 flying full from SNA's little postage stamp airport, but they did it.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2442 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12136 times:

The whole reasoning behind a "Possible WN 738 Order" is so that they can accommodate more passengers at slot restricted airports. Airports such as LGA, MDW, SNA, etc. Although with WN its always "Never Say Never", IMHO they will code share there again before flying there with their own metal. Lets face it, if WN wanted to go to Hawaii with their own metal, their -700s could do the job.

[Edited 2010-09-06 06:49:40 by srbmod]


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12099 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 12):
Right, and to make that even more impressive.. they operated it from John Wayne. Hard to imagine a B737-700 flying full from SNA's little postage stamp airport, but they did it.

Part of the reason AQ lasted as long as they did while bleeding money from the interisland fare war was because their transpacific flights were still profitable. They also leased a single 73H from HV several months before shutting down, in addition to their fleet of 73Gs.


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Quoting mrskyguy (Thread starter):
Before the naysayers start slinging the "never gonna happen" mud, consider that SWA is no longer the airline that avoids congested areas, refuses direct legacy competition, etc.

Getting ETOPS certification is not a small step. It's possible WN could work something out, but I'm skeptical for now.


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1984 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11902 times:

I just read today in the Pilots union magazine that they will all be going to DAL for ETOPS training. Take what you will from that.


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently onlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11868 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 15):
I just read today in the Pilots union magazine that they will all be going to DAL for ETOPS training. Take what you will from that.



ETOPS doesn't necessarily mean Hawaii, they could want ETOPS for a more direct route to the Caribbean, maybe they wanna fly BOS-LGW. There could be tons of answers.

Pretty sweet that we may see a WN ETOPS bird though!



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User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11765 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
ETOPS doesn't necessarily mean Hawaii, they could want ETOPS for a more direct route to the Caribbean,

The only part of the Caribbean that would require ETOPS is a small strip south of Bermuda and north of the Bahamas and Hispanola. Now, they would have to traverse this area on a direct route from the Northeast to Puerto Rico, but I can't imagine that in itself would justify the cost and effort of ETOPS certification. JetBlue seems to manage just fine.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11623 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 14):
Getting ETOPS certification is not a small step. It's possible WN could work something out, but I'm skeptical for now.

That's a good point, but my old objection to that was the issue of keeping aircraft on a closed loop. I believe WN could do this based on how they've operated LGA through BWI and MDW, but that's a slightly different ball of wax.

The most interesting part of WN's business model for a Hawaii expansion is the simple fact that WN existing network would directly feed the Hawaii structure.. no regionals or crazy routings with different PAX loads to work out. In typical WN fashion, it would be simple.. for Hawaii operations, that is.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1984 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10864 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
The only part of the Caribbean that would require ETOPS is a small strip south of Bermuda and north of the Bahamas and Hispanola. Now, they would have to traverse this area on a direct route from the Northeast to Puerto Rico, but I can't imagine that in itself would justify the cost and effort of ETOPS certification. JetBlue seems to manage just fine.

Wow, I didn't know that. So B6 doesn't have ETOPS? Also, can you fly FLL/MCO-SJU without ETOPS?

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 18):
The most interesting part of WN's business model for a Hawaii expansion is the simple fact that WN existing network would directly feed the Hawaii structure.. no regionals or crazy routings with different PAX loads to work out. In typical WN fashion, it would be simple.. for Hawaii operations, that is.

I picture a mainland/interisland type of deal = LAX-HNL-OGG-OAK. That would really maximize the aircraft. I can't tell you how many current WN planes have routes where the aircraft is flying all day long, then when you think it can't fly one more, they squeeze out a BUR-LAS leg or whatever... something in the 45min range. But I totally see some sort of minor interisland routings between the mainland segments.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13752 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10741 times:
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Quoting mrskyguy (Thread starter):
Now with SWA in discussions to acquire Boeing 738s, do you think the likelihood of SWA finally testing Hawaii are stronger?

No, because they need ETOPS certification before looking at Hawaii, and it's not a simple matter of training pilots - your company has to develop their ETOPS program from the ground-up and get it approved by the DOT first. Odds are, if they announced it tomorrow it would take WN 12-18 months to get it done.

And as has already been pointed out, the 73G actually has superior range to the 738/73H, so if WN had wanted to look at Hawaii service they could have started ETOPS planning long ago. The fact that they haven't is telling.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 19):
I picture a mainland/interisland type of deal = LAX-HNL-OGG-OAK.

Wouldn't that create an ETOPS engine cooldown problem?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10697 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 19):
Wow, I didn't know that. So B6 doesn't have ETOPS? Also, can you fly FLL/MCO-SJU without ETOPS?

If you go to gcmap.com in the map section you can choose ETOPS 60, which is basically the base for all airlines. Going more than 60 minutes from land will require ETOPS certification. Anyway, the dark areas on the map will show what parts of the world are no go for non-ETOPS planes. (you can zoom in by inputting a route)

As far as JetBlue goes, I am almost positive that they do not have ETOPS certification. You might be confusing being overwater equipped with ETOPS, which are not the same things. JetBlue certainly is overwater equipped, but not ETOPS, though I forget the maximum distance from land non-overwater equipped planes may go, but flying to Bermuda certainly exceeds it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5738 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10575 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
though I forget the maximum distance from land non-overwater equipped planes may go

50NM



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7663 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9684 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Thread starter):
Granted the 738s are being pursued to improve seat count to airports with limited space and/or slots where growth is constrained, but part of me believes that while this is true it's also a great excuse to introduce the new fleet type which could then be used for alternate capabilities (such as Hawaii, the Caribbean, etc).

There are a number of Caribbean countries WN could fly to without ETOPS using their existing equipment, including their oldest models of 737's.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
JetBlue certainly is overwater equipped, but not ETOPS, though I forget the maximum distance from land non-overwater equipped planes may go, but flying to Bermuda certainly exceeds it.

We had threads last year discussing WN getting overwater equipped a/c to allow more direct routes, have to verify whether they actually did equip some a/c.


User currently onlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9452 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
but flying to Bermuda certainly exceeds it.

They currently fly to BDA with there 190s, which are not ETOPS equipped.



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User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9384 times:
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Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 12):
Right, and to make that even more impressive.. they operated it from John Wayne. Hard to imagine a B737-700 flying full from SNA's little postage stamp airport, but they did it.

I believe AQ's first mainland destination was OAK...not SNA.


25 Pohakuloa : We regularly see the 73G (SNA route I believe), 738 and 739ER here in Honolulu in CO colors. Nice to see the variation even if it is "just" a 737. I
26 EricR : I think Hawaii is the most likely destination. However, I wouldn't rule out CUN / CZM.
27 BMI727 : Destinations on the Yucatan Peninsula would not require ETOPS.
28 mrskyguy : I didn't say anything about it being the first.. my point was more to the capabilities of jet to depart SNA loaded and fly non-stop to HNL. That is i
29 RobK : Fact is that nowhere in N America/Mexico/Canada/Caribbean requires ETOPS, so if WN are sending their pilots for ETOPS training then they're either gon
30 2175301 : Or both.... I actually think that SW could do limited international expansion very successfully with ETOPS planes. I doubt that SW would do ETOPS sol
31 RobK : Highly unlikely it'd be the NAT. The B738 doesn't have the legs for it without load restrictions, plus factor in shitty weather conditions over the o
32 mrskyguy : With you there, and it (apart from ETOPS costs) holds the lowest barriers to entry. Perhaps they'd set it up in a way similar to how COA did it, with
33 QANTAS747-438 : Exactly. As I've stated before, I know about the cost of ETOPS and the low yields that Hawaii could bring. But why, then, would WN go through the ETO
34 CALPSAFltSkeds : I think the costs of ETOPS and Hawaii yields would require the 738 on most if not all operations. There will be some weight restrictions westbound in
35 Post contains images mrskyguy : Im not so certain that where others have failed WN would fail also.. ATA had pretty good yeilds with Hawaii, and I suspect Allegiant will do well als
36 EA CO AS : Who says they are? Sorry, but "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" isn't credible in my book.
37 mrskyguy : Well, sure.. but after all, this is a.net. We're at times often worse than PPRUNE when it comes to rumors.. However, one can't ignore that there's qu
38 QANTAS747-438 : It wasn't heard from a guy who heard from a guy. I read it in the Pilots Union magazine as a quote from Gary Kelly.
39 mcg : In my mind there is no question that WN will fly to Hawaii, simply because I think their customer base wants them to. I can't tell you when they will
40 N471wn : And I agree 100% as there is so much pent up demand for reasonable ticket prices to Hawaii. Alaska and Hawaiian airlines are having a field day (take
41 mrskyguy : I agree, and as I pointed out above:
42 CALPSAFltSkeds : WN would have to figure out how to handle FF awards with Hawaiian service. My guess is WN would require two certificates for an award and have blackou
43 QANTAS747-438 : Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure either, but I seem to remember them charging double-points for WN flts. But you bring up a good point - since ATA's downf
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