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On What Routes Did WN Fly The Boeing 727?  
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7761 times:

It's known that WN operated a total of 7 Boeing 727s at different times in its life, most notably as an antitrust settlement from Braniff. Here's a discussion on this topic on a.net from a while back: Southwest Used 727's? (by EmSeeEye Sep 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

The extra seats (155) must have been a challenge to fill, but I cannot find any reference of their short use. On what routes were these 727s operated?


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 861 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7752 times:

My mom flew the WN 72S from PHX-HOU. She recalls the flight came in from either SAN or LAX. I had a chance to see it while I was passing through HOU once. It caught me off guard, when I saw it land.
JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlinedadoftyler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7710 times:

Looking back at our schedule from 1986 they pretty much few longhauls SAT/HOU-PHX/LAX but there were lots of shorthaul flighs packed in to "connect the dots." And we had 149 seats on the 727's. No 4th flight attendant. It was a gracious plenty of legroom!!!!!

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7624 times:

They were quite regular sight at LAX.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7624 times:
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The first time they flew them DAL-Houston. 12 flts/day (guessing 6 each way). 2nd time was out towards West Coast from Texas.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7509 times:

Also flew SAT to LAS in 1985. I very well remember the trip, as the 727 was basically a novelty for WN.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5600 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7440 times:

I just took a quick spin thru the photo database here and found pix of the WN 727 taken at Love Field, LAX and at SAN. So those are 3 definite confirmations!

bb


User currently onlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7422 times:

HOU-DEN and HOU-MSY as well.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7241 times:

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 4):
The first time they flew them DAL-Houston. 12 flts/day (guessing 6 each way). 2nd time was out towards West Coast from Texas.

When specifically were those times? The EIS dates for each of the 7 birds is not listed in RZjets (by the month).

Quoting traindoc (Reply 5):
Also flew SAT to LAS in 1985. I very well remember the trip, as the 727 was basically a novelty for WN.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
They were quite regular sight at LAX
Quoting dadoftyler (Reply 2):
Looking back at our schedule from 1986 they pretty much few longhauls SAT/HOU-PHX/LAX but there were lots of shorthaul flighs packed in to "connect the dots." And we had 149 seats on the 727's. No 4th flight attendant. It was a gracious plenty of legroom!!!!!

It seems that WN preferred them flying "long haul" relative to WN's network, but flights to LAX would have connected through PHX, correct?

Were these 727 flights specifically outlined in the timetables apart from the typical 732 flights?



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7122 times:

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 8):
When specifically were those times? The EIS dates for each of the 7 birds is not listed

according to airlinerlist.net:
N408BN lsd 1 march 79-14 jan 80
N564PE lsd 26 aug 83-21 aug 85
N561PE lsd 27 aug 83-31 aug 85
N551PE lsd 15 feb 84-15 feb 85
N569PE lsd 2 may 84-30 sep 85
N563PE lsd 17 may 84-31 oct 85
N566PE lsd 22 may 84-31 oct 85



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6395 times:

Were these 727 flights specifically outlined in the timetables apart from the typical 732 flights?


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6356 times:

Actually, I think the fist 727 was N406BN, not N408 as reported above.

In addition, N406BN did have 155 seats rather than 149.

And yes, it was used alm ost entirely between Dallas and Houston although I believe it had one leg each day to HRL and maybe one to MSY.

10 minute turns on "Salvage One" (as N406 was semi-affectionally called) were painful, to say the least.


User currently offlineABQ707 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

I remember seeing one at ABQ in the mid 80's IIRC. Paint job didn't exactly match either, it was more "beige" than the SWA baby puke brown.  


First flight TWA 707 ABQ to BWI 1964
User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6311 times:
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Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
I just took a quick spin thru the photo database here and found pix of the WN 727 taken at Love Field, LAX and at SAN. So those are 3 definite confirmations!

I actually saw the WN 727 at SAN several times in 1984. It arrived in the afternoon.



PSA Gives you a lift!
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6183 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 11):
Actually, I think the fist 727 was N406BN, not N408 as reported above.

Yes it was a typo, N408BN was not with Southwest, I meant N406BN



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 11):
And yes, it was used alm ost entirely between Dallas and Houston although I believe it had one leg each day to HRL and maybe one to MSY.

WN definitely flew them between MSY and HOU. I do remember seeing them, when I started working with Piedmont. IIRC the 722 used to park on B1 normally.

Later

MD


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

I don't have my batch of WN timetables handy at the moment.. can anyone confirm if these 727 flights were specifically highlighted in the timetables separately from the B732-operated flights?


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinecontrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

At one time WN was flying a 727 on the TUL-DAL-HOU route. I saw one of them in TUL a couple of times.

I remember that the 727 looked very strange in WN colors.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlinetxagkuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Not sure about the second iteration of 727 use.... but during the original single leased 727 from Braniff (it was punishment for Braniff having violated anti trust statutes, although operating N406BN was almost punishment itself at times) there was no special annotation or flight numbers associated with the aircraft.

Dispatch, crew scheduling, and DRC knew which flights on which dates it would be on. It had a different "lid" than flights with 737-200s. But just looking at a flight schedule you would not be able to tell.


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

Quoting txagkuwait (Reply 18):
Dispatch, crew scheduling, and DRC knew which flights on which dates it would be on. It had a different "lid" than flights with 737-200s. But just looking at a flight schedule you would not be able to tell.

Lid? Is that slang for capacity?



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinerwfa From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

I remember seeing them in OKC as well, not sure of the destinations though.

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5360 times:

I know for a fact that they showed up in ELP fairly regularly...I flew one from ELP-LAX with my folks once  


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinetxagkuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Quote:
Lid? Is that slang for capacity?

In a way, yes, but more than that.

In the era before yield management....when Southwest charged a peak and an off peak fare based upon day of the week/time of day, each flight had a specific number of passengers it was bookable to.

The lid was set in accordance with certain no show factors which varied, once again by time of day and day of the week. The lid varied also by time of the year - flights during holiday periods were booked way high, as people tended to book reservations very early, their plans would change, and they would forget to call and cancel their reservations. That was one reason why airlines used to say that flights "fell apart" during the holidays.

At WN an "A" lid was 107, and it went up by increments of 5.

IIRC the 737-200s had 118 seats back then and the 727-200 had 155. Most 737-200 flights varied between a D and a H lid (122 to 147 seats sold) while the 727-200 varied between a J and an O lid (157 to 182 reservations).

After a while the lid on the 727 was lowered a bit,in many casers. N406BN tended to break more often than one would like, and it was never fun to sub an aircraft with 118 seats for one with 155 that just happened to be booked to 167. What saved WN's bacon a lot is that flights ran every half hour between Dallas and Houston and it was a generally accepted practice that people booked a flight when they thought they would most likely be able to leave in the afternoon. Thenm when they finished up their business meetings they would just head out to the airport and standby for whatever was the next flight to leave. Thus you might have people booked at 4:30 or 5 or maybe even 6 who were able to leave at 3 or 3 o'clock. The same thing happened on flights after 7 pm.....the 7:39 and 8 and 8:30 was when everyone wanted to leave....but they filled up first. So people would book at 10:30 or 11:30 pm but they would go out to the airport and stand by and get on earlier, leaving the last flight of the night basically empty.

I wouldn;t call lid sland, I wsould refer to it more as jargon....or a technical term to describe how high you booked the flight. It was based on historical data, and occasionally the circumstances would not align themselves with history which is when you would have a nasty oversale.


User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5145 times:

That was very informative! Thank you.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineswabrian From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

If you all will read the Airways special I did on SWA's 35th Anniversary, there is an article on the 727s with dates of use, and an interview with a Captain who flew them. The first use was the a/c leased from BN in 1979 as part of the anti-trust settlement and all it did was fly between DAL and HOU. It was only used about 10 month. Then in the mid 1980s, we leased from PeopleExpress a total of 6 727-200s (which were former BN). These held 149 seats, and they operated between MSY and Calif via Texas and PHX. The FEs were Line Mechanics. The public timetable didn't specifically list the aircraft type on a flight (the fine print did say flights will be operated by either 737s or 727s), but I am guessing the type was loaded in the res system and in the OAGs. These aircraft were in service for 2 years or so.

25 mrskyguy : Which issue was this one?
26 e38 : mrskyguy With reference to the routes, I had the following flights on a Southwest 727: December 29, 1979: Southwest flight 49 - Houston Hobby to New O
27 SPREE34 : I rode them several times between PHX and ABQ.
28 type-rated : I flew on WN 727's a few times and I seem to remember the brown leather seats in them, right from BN.
29 Post contains links and images mrskyguy : That was called the "Halston" scheme, which was Braniff's late change away from the Girard/Pucci theme (bright, colorful, very 1960s) to a theme whic
30 laddb : I am so glad I saw this. I remember my dad swearing he flew a 727 from MSY to HOU once back sometime in the 80s when he traveled a lot. I never believ
31 swabrian : It was an Airways special. They have done them on PA, TW, WN, AS, and BN. The WN one is still for sale on their web site.
32 swabrian : I have interior photos--not very good quality, but on the batch of 6 from PE, the seats had the standard WN seat coverings for the time.
33 mrskyguy : I'd love to see those, BL.
34 L1011 : I flew on N564PE from HOU to MSY on 8/1/84. It was listed in the OAG as a 72S. That's why I picked that flight. I was expecting a PeoplExpress interio
35 type-rated : I remember the brown leather seats because of the X pattern stitching on the seat back, right where the middle of your back goes while sitting in them
36 mrskyguy : Completely off subject, but a worthy anecdote! I love that sort of stuff.
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