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UPS 747-400 Crash In Dubai - Part 2  
User currently offlineNZ1 From Australia, joined May 2004, 2276 posts, RR: 25
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 47558 times:
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Continuation from UPS 747-400 Crash In Dubai (by jfklucky777 Sep 3 2010 in Civil Aviation)

117 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 47570 times:

Referring to following reply in Part 1 by Kaitak:

I recall that there was a Malaysia A330 a few years back, on which Mercury leaked ... and the aircraft was declared a write-off.

According to this report the chemical spill involved "oxalyl chloride" , not mercury.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000315-0


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2097 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 46803 times:

Yes, yes, yes. Of the several papers here in the UAE reporting on this crash, one said it crashed two minutes after takeoff and the other said it was an hour, and was already to Bahrain.

I now realized it was well into the flight and not 2 minutes when problems began. I now see similarities with SwissAir 111 (I stand corrected), and SAA 747 combi crash in the Indian Ocean.

It just goes to show how unreliable media reports can be. I first heard about the first report of this crash on FoxNews, and they said cars were hit and burning on the highway... Not.


User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 46681 times:
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Pardon my lack of knowledge, but I have a couple of questions for those of you in the Aviation Industry.

1. What can the Flight Data Recorder tell the investigators about the fire and what caused it?

2. Does the FDR record flight crew voice communications?

Thanks very much and may those two Brave Pilots Rest in Peace.

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 46510 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
1. What can the Flight Data Recorder tell the investigators about the fire and what caused it?

2. Does the FDR record flight crew voice communications?

The FDR or DFDR (digital flight data recorder) records hundreds of different flight parameters. When connected to a computer, investigators are able to translate those parameters into a visual three-dimensional display to view all parameters acting together to see exactly what motions the aircraft went through. Their reliability used to be fairly sketchy, but I believe the newer boxes have better and more reliable technology.

The FDR does not record crew voice comms, the CVR or Cockpit Voice Recorder does, which is a separate piece of equipment -- the second "black box". It records at least 30 minutes prior to the accident or incident using a continuous reel of magnetic tape, although the FAA recommends that newer boxes record up to two hours or more. The reliability of these are typically quite good, particularly because they can continue to operate despite the aircraft losing electrical power.

Future units will likely use more digital instrumentation, and thus much more reliable, combined with research being done so that the units self-eject from the aircraft prior to impact. This would spare the units from the impact and potential subsequent fire, submersion into water, etc. This could have potentially helped to solve the mystery of Air France flight 447 last year.

I hope that helps answer your questions! I'm sure others on here will have much more to add than me though.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6065 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 46428 times:

It may sound like invasion of privacy but should'nt cameras now be installed through out the belly hold, cabin and cockpit and fuselage like on the A380 tail, though seeing chaos in the last minutes wont be pleasent especially in the cabin.

User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 46365 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
It may sound like invasion of privacy but should'nt cameras now be installed through out the belly hold, cabin and cockpit and fuselage like on the A380 tail, though seeing chaos in the last minutes wont be pleasent especially in the cabin.

A bit like JetBlue flight 292 at LAX several years ago when the nose gear was turned 90 degrees and had to burn off fuel for several hours. Because the aircraft had live DirecTV, all of the passengers were watching the constant coverage of the flight and then landing live on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and the like. I suppose it could have freaked some people out because they had different "experts" come on and describe what could go wrong, but most passengers said that they were comforted by the experienced pilots they interviewed who said the landing should be uneventful -- not to mention the cabin crew did a great job keeping people informed and calm. There were some flames and sparks but, as expected, it was uneventful; it just ruined the nose gear.

Anyway, using cameras mounted on the aircraft, internally and externally, would be quite useful if they were recorded to the FDR, so that in the event of an accident/incident, it would aid the investigation. It could obviously be useful in this case, particularly if a fire originated in the cargo hold. It would be very interesting if future FDR designs utilize such technologies.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 6065 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 46318 times:

Thats exactly what I meant in my post, no way did I suggest live footage on IFE for all on board.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
Anyway, using cameras mounted on the aircraft, internally and externally, would be quite useful if they were recorded to the FDR, so that in the event of an accident/incident, it would aid the investigation. It could obviously be useful in this case, particularly if a fire originated in the cargo hold. It would be very interesting if future FDR designs utilize such technologies.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 46234 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 7):
Thats exactly what I meant in my post, no way did I suggest live footage on IFE for all on board.

Oh no, of course not, I was just using the incident with JetBlue as a reason NOT to do so!

I really hope that the manufacturers look into recording the cameras on the FDR, as well as having the FDR and CVR self-eject prior to impact. It would greatly enhance the ability for air accident investigators to gather evidence and data. While recording the cameras wouldn't provide any numerical or quantitative data, it could absolutely provide some types of information that no FDR is capable of.


User currently offlineRubberJungle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 45229 times:

Looks like a confirmation of fire, of some description, on board

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-ups-747-had-smoke-in-cockpit.html


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 45212 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
1. What can the Flight Data Recorder tell the investigators about the fire and what caused it?

a lot. It probably has clues or information about temperatures on board and also they can combine it with the cockpit voices and information from the tower, the load sheets and the wreckage and see if and which instruments failed in what time order to see how the fire developed.
For instance if multiple systems were lost as first emergency event, it suggest some short circuit or explosion which caused the fire. If a single system failed, it might have caused a chain reaction. But if the fire was known already by the crew it before instruments or the aircraft lost control it suggests a cargo fire, combined with the wreckage and damage they can probably piece conclusions together.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 44410 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 4):
Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 10):

Thank you both very much!   

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 43544 times:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/2010309040072
Pilots identified as Captain Doug Lampe, 48, of Louisville, KY & First Officer Matthew Bell, 38, of Sanford, FL.
Given that UPS Worldport is here at SDF, this has been a big story around here; around 1/3 of UPS' 2,800 pilots live in the Louisville area.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13197 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 43466 times:

What kind of cargo that could trigger or support a fire on this flight? Is Dubai used as a hub to transfer cargo from Asia (especially China) to get to Europe? My logic is that there is probably almost nothing produced in Dubai that could be a risk cargo unless it some technical items being sent for repair or replacement back to Europe.

User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2607 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 43308 times:

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 9):
Looks like a confirmation of fire, of some description, on board

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

INteresting that the article mentions that the CVR was found but not the FDR so far. Hope that one can be located as well, it may have some valuable info about what happened.

From the 1st thread:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 238):

the shipper need to have a contract in place, they do not do ad-hoc shipping of DGs for unknown shippers.

I know, that's a part of my job


Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe that shipments from unknown shippers CAN go on cargo aircraft, but not on pax aircraft. It's at the carrier's discretion in the case of cargo aircraft.


User currently offlineguillermo From Italy, joined Feb 2001, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 42952 times:

Quoting tdscanuck, reply #240, Part 1:
It's not a problem of quality, it's a problem of density and design requirements. Aircraft, by necessity, run a lot closer to their design margins than most other industries. On top of that, the cockpit (and EE bay immediately below) is an *incredibly* densely packed area in terms of number of wires and amount of power flowing. That's a fallout of the fact that all the control is in the cockpit. Even if you're perfect 99.99% of the time, that still gives you a statistically significant number of bent or pushed back pins, nicked insulation, etc.


Thanks for your feedback. Your point is certainly true, after all the aircraft industry must be economically sustainable in the long term, otherwise it clearly would disappear. However, I am only wondering if things could be made in a different way. In my opinion, it is not strictly true that there is absolutely impossible to avoid high power density areas within the cockpit, since you can place the power control interfaces near to the power sources and distribution nodes, the devices' protections near the respectives power devices and still control remotely from the cockpit all this stuff via low power lines (signal lines), or perhaps even better via optical fibers. This is technically possible, as for example it is current to my knowledge in the power generation and distribution industry. Top notch engineers like those ones working at Boeing or Airbus surely knows this, of course. Perhaps the costs of deploy such kind of system -low power cockpit- for new types (e.g. development, hardware, redundant security, certifications related issues, etc.) are too high to afford?

Regarding the fire extinguishing system: instead of this, if it were so costly and complex to deploy it, wouldn't it help to interface via a selection valve the pressurization system with the engines' air admissions ducts, that is to say, the area just before the fan? This is a low pressure area, so connecting the cargo decks with this zones would help to reduce air pressure -and hence oxygen level- inside them even flying at low altitude, and therefore would help to contain the propagation of fire, and also remove part of the smoke away. Kinda of a pressurization counterpart.

Just my 1 cent.
Guillermo.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 42449 times:

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 9):
Looks like a confirmation of fire, of some description, on board

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

It does not confirm a fire, just that there was a lot of smoke. You can have smoke in a airplane with no fire, if something causes insulation, wiring, plastic, etc. to heat up hot enough to melt and produce smoke.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 13):
What kind of cargo that could trigger or support a fire on this flight?

Batteries for cell phones and laptop computers have caused fires on aircraft in the past. So will O2 generators (like in the ValueJet fire and crash). Chemicals that if come in contact with each other can also cause fires and smoke or toxic smoke. Also vehicles with some fuel in the fuel tank, if not grounded to the airplane can ignite (sloshing gasoline produces its own static electricity). But vehicles are usually tied down with chains to floor fittings, and provide a good ground. Oil/gas well drilling equipment that is not fully purged/cleaned by the shipper can also ignite.

I don't know what type of cargo was aboard the UPS-6 B-747-400F, but this was one of the 8 new build B-744Fs ordered by UPS back in 2005. So it had a nose cargo door and was not one of the converted B-747-400 former passenger jets UPS now has (I believe they now have all 8 new build "F" models and 4 or 5 converted "BCF" models in their fleet).


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 42029 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
1. What can the Flight Data Recorder tell the investigators about the fire and what caused it?

The FDR on an aircraft of this vintage is likely recording essentially all parameters the aircraft knows about (this got a lot better when the industry went to bus-architecture). A fire in a compartment with fire detection is pretty easy, since you can see which detector alerted when. A fire in the flight deck, however, would have to be back-derived from temperature measurements and looking at the order in which various parameters started to drop off the data stream, since this tells you when various components and/or wires stopped transmitting.

To do this well requires intimate knowledge of the detailed layout of every avionics box and wire bundle, but that's what investigations are for. If they recover the FDR (wreckage recover should be pretty straighforward), they should have a good idea.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
2. Does the FDR record flight crew voice communications?

No. As previously noted, FAR's require that that actually be done in a separate box (the CVR). But yes, the cockpit voice communications (both in the flight deck and over the radios) are all recorded.

Quoting guillermo (Reply 15):
In my opinion, it is not strictly true that there is absolutely impossible to avoid high power density areas within the cockpit, since you can place the power control interfaces near to the power sources and distribution nodes, the devices' protections near the respectives power devices and still control remotely from the cockpit all this stuff via low power lines (signal lines), or perhaps even better via optical fibers.

This is exactly what newly designed aircraft do (e.g. 787/A350). But the technology to do this (reliable light high-current solid-state switches) wasn't available at the time most aircraft in service were built. As a result, things like the 747-400 are running around with a tremendous amount of relays, conventional circuit breakers, and high-current wiring near the flight deck.

Quoting guillermo (Reply 15):
Regarding the fire extinguishing system: instead of this, if it were so costly and complex to deploy it, wouldn't it help to interface via a selection valve the pressurization system with the engines' air admissions ducts, that is to say, the area just before the fan? This is a low pressure area, so connecting the cargo decks with this zones would help to reduce air pressure -and hence oxygen level- inside them even flying at low altitude, and therefore would help to contain the propagation of fire, and also remove part of the smoke away. Kinda of a pressurization counterpart.

This is possible in concept, but probably not possible on already built aircraft because the fuselage structure isn't designed to support any significant amount of negative pressure. You'd need to be very careful not to accidentally crumple the fuselage.

Tom.


User currently offlinevlada From Serbia, joined Aug 2005, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 40830 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 13):
What kind of cargo that could trigger or support a fire on this flight?

Batteries for cell phones and laptop computers have caused fires on aircraft in the past. So will O2 generators (like in the ValueJet fire and crash). Chemicals that if come in contact with each other can also cause fires and smoke or toxic smoke. Also vehicles with some fuel in the fuel tank, if not grounded to the airplane can ignite (sloshing gasoline produces its own static electricity). But vehicles are usually tied down with chains to floor fittings, and provide a good ground. Oil/gas well drilling equipment that is not fully purged/cleaned by the shipper can also ignite.

Is there any regulation as to what kind of materials/cargo can't be carried around in an airplane (cargo or passenger)?


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 40456 times:

Quoting vlada (Reply 18):
Is there any regulation as to what kind of materials/cargo can't be carried around in an airplane (cargo or passenger)?

Yes, lots, but it depends a lot on what type of airplane, what other kinds of equipment the plane is equipped with, where you put it, how much there is, how it's packaged, etc., etc.

There isn't that much stuff that you *can't* ship by air at all, but you might have to do a lot of strange things to ship some stuff.

Tom.


User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2220 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 40261 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
I believe they now have all 8 new build "F" models and 4 or 5 converted "BCF" models in their fleet).



UPS 747-400 fleet contained 12 aircraft, incl. one stored.

N570UP till/incl. N577UP 8x new built 747- 44AF
N578UP and N579UP 2x converted 747-45EBCF (ex. Eva Air combi aircraft)
N580UP (stored at Roswell) 1x used 747-428F (ex. Cargolux, first built 744F aircraft, Air france NTU)
N581UP 1x used 747-4R7F (ex. Cargolux)



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 39918 times:
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Quoting vlada (Reply 18):
Is there any regulation as to what kind of materials/cargo can't be carried around in an airplane (cargo or passenger)?

Yes, but it's pricey...

http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/dgr/Pages/software.aspx



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7131 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 38904 times:

One consideration for improving recorder reliability is instead of having the recorders onboard to have the information continually broadcast to a maintenance site, and then it would be instantly available without having to search for physical recorders. With satellite communications that is now possible; of course it would raise privacy issues, but in this case I think the safety issues (especially after AF 447) should override them.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 38814 times:

Quoting vlada (Reply 18):
Is there any regulation as to what kind of materials/cargo can't be carried around in an airplane (cargo or passenger)?

If you are a pax and approach the TSA area, there is sign or two telling you what is taboo on the plane. There is one usually at the counter saying same regarding checked baggage.

For cargo, the boys working the cargo desk with explain it. They know the drill quite well.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently onlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 38084 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
It may sound like invasion of privacy but should'nt cameras now be installed through out the belly hold, cabin and cockpit and fuselage like on the A380 tail, though seeing chaos in the last minutes wont be pleasent especially in the cabin.

This has been discussed more than once. Cameras in cockpits would as you say be an instrument to use in post crash investigations. Two reasons have prevented it´s use like this and the first is as you indicate privacy. Pilot unions have objected against the use of such cameras and secondly it would be too costly in and industry where profits are rare these days.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
25 tdscanuck : This is done now; it's just not the full data stream. It's a bandwidth problem...any one aircraft can do it no problem. We don't have the satellite c
26 rfields5421 : Some other reasons against cameras in the cockpit. 1) What are they going to show? If they are detailed view enough to show actual instruments and but
27 Navigator : The quality of such equipment would probably be good enough to show all actions taken by the crew. The cooperation amongst the crew members is someth
28 tdscanuck : You already get that from a modern FDR...it shows the state of every cockpit control. The only crew action that a camera shows you that isn't on the
29 Post contains images Navigator : Aircrash investigators get a hell of a lot out of that waving The cooperation between crew members is one of the most important clues in getting to k
30 JBirdAV8r : Just listening to the CVR will tell you that...among other things. A camera would do almost no good in that situation. Again, CVR/FDR will tell you a
31 Navigator : No you do not get that information from the CVR/FDR. You can not see if the PF or PNF pushed a certain button you only see that it was pushed. You ne
32 spacecadet : Not really true - an HD camera can have a wide field of view *and* show all of the actual instruments. HD cameras need not be giant hulking things on
33 aa61hvy : You are correct on the pax aircraft contract. Unknown shippers cannot ship DG on [legit] cargo airlines, there needs to be a paper trail. But if you
34 BMI727 : A camera in the cockpit would not provide a whole lot of useful additional information for accidents like this one. However, it could provide valuabl
35 guillermo : I understand your point, but: what percentage of aircraft with a fire on board would not end in a write off even with fatalities as a result? I think
36 PlanesNTrains : In ATWOnline it mentions that the aircraft was unable to maintain altitude. One person commented that this might point to a disabled Autopilot, but I
37 okie : Lots of assumptions but really we do not know if the original source of the smoke was from freight, wiring, a deflated tire, electronics, ACM, bypass
38 PITrules : "Unable to maintain altitude" at first might imply mechanical failure, but it also might refer to their conditions in flight, such as the dire need t
39 Post contains links 737FSPilot : Here is a link to the UPS Website concerning the crash: http://www.pressroom.ups.com/Press+R...ses/Statement+on+Aircraft+Incident R.I.P UPS Crew Best
40 PlanesNTrains : It is certainly not possible in any way for us to figure things out at this point. More than anything, what caught my eye earlier in these threads on
41 BMI727 : The best you could hope for is maybe being able to see where the smoke initially came from.
42 tdscanuck : Newer FDR's show both...you track both command and actual. Command is the state of the control, actual is the state of the thing you're commanding. T
43 Gonzalo : In addition, with a crumpled fuselage the aerodynamics could change a lot making the aircraft uncontrollable anyway. As usual, we have to wait for th
44 KC135TopBoom : If UP-6 had made it to the runway at DXB, would this crew have survived? Once on the ground with a burning aircraft, they still have to get out. There
45 fn1001 : Regarding the discussion about cameras in the cockpit and the accident in DXB I we should not forget that it seems that the smoke was so dense, that t
46 N685FE : I have seen quite a few vechials shipped while at work. They all have been loaded onto a shipping pallet then strapped down and secured to the pallet
47 spacecadet : Yes, but a camera would see how thick the smoke was, which is important information too. It could potentially even identify a possible source for it,
48 ZANL188 : Commercial aircraft generally do not have a floor that's capable of supporting a vehicle, so the vehicle is tied down to a pallet and then loaded. No
49 guillermo : Of course, you are perfectly right. When I was replying your post I was thinking in a situation were the plane would remain on one piece, strong enou
50 Post contains images Gonzalo : Sorry, but this is what you said in your original post : Sounds like a major change to me, maybe is not "major" in terms of extension or components i
51 ltbewr : Any additional fire suppression equipment would add weight, which means less cargo capacity and/or fuel burn as well as more complexity to aircraft sy
52 Post contains links N685FE : It's a matter of what the airline values, it's people, aircraft, cargo, ect., or every dollar it can make. FX has completed and gotten approval for a
53 Post contains images swissy : Not always.... we drove them on/off most of the times without any issues ...
54 ZANL188 : I'd like to know the aircraft and circumstances... Did you have a subfloor installed?
55 Post contains images swissy : MD11... and we left empty pallets (cookie sheets) on the floor just to make sure not to break the floor... or we moved them to the front before we dr
56 ZANL188 : That's a subfloor... My point is that you could not load the vehicles directly on the aircrafts floor, let alone drive them off on the floor.
57 Post contains links and images ferengi80 : Apologies if this has been posted before, I had a look through part 1 also but cannot see it. Although I am not a fan of the Daily Mail, I saw this li
58 BMI727 : I think it is disingenuous at best to frame it that way. While FedEx is usually on the forefront of developing and introducing new technology, and sh
59 N685FE : You can see it how ever you want but that's what it boils down too. I'm not putting fx above everyone else, we all know they have had their share of p
60 ZANL188 : Per AvHerald the FDR was recovered today...
61 BMI727 : Certainly there are, but I don't think UPS is one of them.
62 N685FE : I never said they were, you are lumping them into that statement. A company that continues to upgrade it's equipment and be among the leaders in the i
63 traindoc : We also have to consider sabotage as a cause. Even though Dubai is more Western friendly than other parts of the Middle East, the U.S. is still "The G
64 Post contains links PITrules : "WASHINGTON – The fire that broke out in a UPS plane that crashed last week in Dubai, killing both pilots, appears to have begun in a cargo compartm
65 JBirdAV8r : Well, switch position on startup pretty much covers it, doesn't it? It ultimately matters little who throws the switch; it matters when it was thrown
66 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Does anyone know whether the UAE have any fighter squadrons on alert around DXB or another nearby area? If you have a loaded 744F flying blind towards
67 Post contains images CBPhoto : Along the lines on what I had thought all along from the first thread. Odds are, if it is a cargo aircraft and it did catch fire, it was the cargo th
68 PlanesNTrains : I'm guessing that they meant "render assistance" and not "shoot down". IOW, another set of eyes to help them get to a safe landing. -Dave
69 Post contains links PITrules : The little evidence compiled so far suggests otherwise: "The plane's pilots also told air traffic controllers that a fire had broken out in the main
70 wjcandee : Respectfully, I think the real benefit of this tool is not to nitpick, but to do overall quality control. It would have picked up the Pinnacle 41,000
71 ZANL188 : This kind of workplace monitoring is common in todays world... Why should pilots be immune? I suggest the video only be used in the event of an accid
72 Zeke : UAE have an airbase near AUH with fast jets, I think the closest fast jets on alert would have been at the Al Udeid Air Base, in Qatar. However I am
73 CBPhoto : Opps..my bad, I misread what I though ULMflyer said in his post! Yes..that might have been a wise decision if they could have scrambled some jets to
74 JBirdAV8r : I agree with you. I'm not condemning FOQA; I'm just trying to dispel this notion that pilots somehow ride roughshod over their cockpits with zero acc
75 ZANL188 : Isn't that how CVR & FDR data is being used currently(at least in the US that I'm aware)? Why would a video recording be different?
76 morvious : Could you explain to me what CFIT means? Thanks.
77 Post contains images BMIFlyer : Controlled Flight Into Terrain Well, US and UK fighters, yes. The UAE base is Minhad (OMDM) not far from Dubai city.
78 Bralo20 : CFIT = Controlled Flight Into Terrain Generally used when a plane that is capable of flying (thus no obvious technical issues) flies into terrain.
79 rfields5421 : While the fire on this UPS B744 was obviously serious and endangered the crew - I've seen nothing to indicate the aircraft fell from the sky in a div
80 rfields5421 : I find this a bit of interesting and encouraging information. We know that most modern aircraft with larger airlines transmit some near realtime data
81 Aesma : I have read both threads entirely, a disturbing accident for sure ! Magnetic tape on this new airplane, I don't think so. Solid state recorders have b
82 justloveplanes : Has any consideration ever been given to increased external air exchange, especially in the cockpit, to deal with smoke? Something like an emergency v
83 tdscanuck : Yes. Most aircraft have something like this, typically a combination of special flow schedules within the ECS system and/or an auxiliary scoop. You n
84 PITrules : Agreed. The system is primarily used for dispatch reliability. If a malfunction is known ahead of time, maintenance folks can meet the aircraft when
85 Zeke : Basically when the aircraft is still controllable, but for whatever reason the crew unknowingly allows a somewhat airworthy aircraft to fly into the
86 PITrules : CFIT implies "controlled" flight into terrain. Even if they were conscious I'm not sure how this could be considered "controlled" flight if they could
87 Post contains links PITrules : You just gotta love the government... In 2006 UPS had a near disaster in PHL with an on board fire. The NTSB recommended main deck fire suppression. T
88 tdscanuck : Freighter crews are too small to swing the FAA's cost/benefit calculations (the count lives, not cargo). The only way to move that number, unfortunat
89 PITrules : Or have a cargo plane go down in a populated area. In both of these accidents the aircraft flew over densely populated areas just moments before they
90 Post contains links Pihero : The 747 has a smoke evacuation port on top of the flight deck. As far as I know, it has been demonstrated many times that its usefulness is very much
91 rfields5421 : Yet Air France operations was not aware of any alerts or issues from the A330 aircraft until maintenance discovered the messages after the aircraft h
92 spacecadet : Sure about that? "Controlled flight" doesn't mean a human has to be controlling it, at least linguistically. The airplane is still responding to cont
93 Post contains links N685FE : A quick search produced this AC, issued for GA pilots but terminology is the same. Advisory Circular 4/1/03 AC: 61-134 pg 3 http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulat
94 N685FE : When the fire damaged the aircraft to the point that major systems were failing, at that point it is no longer airworthy. The aircraft still remains u
95 Aesma : AFAIK we don't know anything about that. What you say makes sense, but then we have to distinguish between several kinds of CFIT. Helios Airways Flig
96 trigged : I agree. If the aircraft had suffered a failure of systems due to fire damaging wiring, control cables, etc. then the "Controlled" part is not applic
97 MD88Captain : These arguments for cockpit video are irksome to professional pilots. They are so clueless that they have a real chance of getting regulatory attentio
98 Aesma : Smoke is only one potential problem (and might I add, does not cause a majority of crashes), the camera would be there to help in any investigation, a
99 KC135TopBoom : The argument from the pilot's union has no logic, either. The claim it invades privacy is an empty claim. No other worker has a right to privacy in h
100 Post contains images morvious : Thank you all guys. That makes this thread a whole lot easier to understand
101 Post contains links PITrules : 'UPS 6' was retired immediately after the accident; however a few weeks later in use just one more time http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UPS6 "Fly W
102 Post contains links LAXintl : Our favorite laptop batteries might be behind this tragedy. Full story http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...fire_cargo_UPS_crash_203408-1.html And F
103 Post contains links and images srbmod : Lithium batteries factored into the fire that destroyed a UPS DC-8 that landed at PHL (UPS 1307) back in 2006. Much like in the UPS 6 crash, products
104 Post contains links UPS Pilot : There is a pilot site out there that has a lot of mis information from a small group of disgruntled cargo pilots. UPS has been and always will be conc
105 SEPilot : Assuming that the lithium batteries did in fact cause this crash, I am surprised that after the accident in 2006 that more safety measures weren't pu
106 Post contains links PITrules : Here is a HD version of that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6bEroKmQhg&feature=related Sending a dedicated 744 to "just" bring them back w
107 UPS Pilot : "why UPS lobbied for a cargo exemption for TCAS. Only after India required TCAS did UPS install it." PIT you should know that UPS pioneered ADS-B tec
108 PITrules : Those other classes of fire are surrounded by Class A fuel: Packaging, cardboard, boxes, etc. If the fire could be kept from spreading through all th
109 Post contains links wjcandee : Um...it's filled with filtered cockpit air. So it's the same stuff that's between you and the instrument panel, just without the smoke in it. http://
110 UPS Pilot : PIT, I agree that the more time the better. The Fed Ex system uses Argon with foam generators. A spike punctures the can setting off the fire warning
111 UPS Pilot : wjcandee, I'm aware its not pure 100% oxygen in the EVAS. I'm more concerned using it if smoke is detected and the smoke is coming from the panel. The
112 Post contains links PITrules : You don't think that FedEx is going through all this trouble and expense if they weren't sure it worked, do you? Because those are the fleets that ne
113 UPS Pilot : PIT Rules, "You don't think that FedEx is going through all this trouble and expense if they weren't sure it worked, do you?" I also remember how much
114 PITrules : I don't have an axe to grind; just disappointment by some of the things I have seen as it relates to the UPS safety culture. In fact I have not comme
115 UPS Pilot : I wasn't implying you. I do know though. I can see by your comments regarding me being a manager and your comment of "I'm glad you see it at a wonderf
116 stratosphere : FedEx uses AHM also on the 777 and MD-11's
117 stratosphere : His profile says he is a 757/767 pilot
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