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Air Algerie Might Be Banned From EU!  
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2463 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13908 times:

According to many articles on the web (mostly French), Air Algérie might be banned from EU as early as 5th Nov 2010. EU is considering putting them on the black list if they don't improve their safety and maintenance standards and bring them to European Levels. The articles say that EU has discovered many safety flaws in AH's procedures ranging from unsafe cargo transportation to irregularities to air crew licenses.

This is one of the articles.

http://www.elwatan.com/actualite/air...la-montre-31-08-2010-88314_109.php

This is really worrying as I am supposed to fly them tomorrow 6th September from Algiers to Tunis on a 738.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRubberJungle From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13704 times:

Not surprising. Flight International said a few weeks ago that the EU was stepping up its checks on Air Algerie. Never a good sign.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-safety-checks-on-air-algerie.html


User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1100 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13697 times:

Isn't this what happened to EgyptAir as well? MS was "threatened" with an EU Blacklisting, which in turn forced MS to get their act together. I bet AH will end up not getting banned but we will see.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
This is really worrying as I am supposed to fly them tomorrow 6th September from Algiers to Tunis on a 738.

You will be fine!


User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12135 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
This is really worrying as I am supposed to fly them tomorrow 6th September from Algiers to Tunis on a 738.

If you knew they were not up to par why would you book with them, or did you have no other option?



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineGoblin211 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12109 times:

I honestly, wouldn't be worried. In the U.S. we've had our own problems with a/c such as the fines on WN and they're still flying!!! I'm sure it's just legal stuff.


From the airport with love
User currently offlineAH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 11479 times:

Hi,

Very interesting! Did not know about this at all and I just came back from Algeria 2 weeks ago!

As far as I know AH has had I believe 2 accidents in its long history, both relatively recent (by that I mean the 2000s). One was a Hercules cargo flight that crashed on its way back from FRA and the other a 732 that crashed after take off from TMR (Tamanrassett).

I haven't flown AH internationally since 2003 (CDG-ALG-CDG), but I fly them domestically all the time to Annaba from Alger. Other than having the misfortune to fly the ATRs this summer, I have never had a problem with AH.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
This is really worrying as I am supposed to fly them tomorrow 6th September from Algiers to Tunis on a 738.

You will be fine my friend. My only advice is if your flight is leaving between 11am - 3pm, make sure to get to the passport controls VERY early, it is a mess at that time! Have a fun/safe flight.

Cheers,
Imad



Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2463 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 11291 times:

Quoting q120 (Reply 3):
If you knew they were not up to par why would you book with them, or did you have no other option?

I did not know by the time I booked the flight. And I was actually looking forward to add them to my logbook as I have never flown them before.

Quoting AH332 (Reply 5):
You will be fine my friend. My only advice is if your flight is leaving between 11am - 3pm, make sure to get to the passport controls VERY early, it is a mess at that time! Have a fun/safe flight.

The flight leaves at 16:00 so I guess it won't be a problem.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinevarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1581 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10849 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 6):
I did not know by the time I booked the flight. And I was actually looking forward to add them to my logbook as I have never flown them before.

I am sure you'll be OK my friend!!!!!!!!!!
AH flightdeck crew are good, there are some minor glitches which the EU is having in its radar
And you know how it works...if you don't threaten, people tell you all the time "no problem,we'll see tomorrow..."



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10042 times:

Quoting AH332 (Reply 5):
As far as I know AH has had I believe 2 accidents in its long history, both relatively recent (by that I mean the 2000s).

Being or not on a black list is not a question of how many accident an airline had.
Some airlines on the EU back list actually never had any serious accident in the past 10 years...


User currently offlineBrusselsSouth From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9484 times:

Banning AH from EU would cause quite a mess seeing how their network concentrates on point-to-point Algeria-EU routes (save from some Africa/ME destinations and the few long hauls to Canada/China).

The impact would be particularly important on the dense France - Algeria routes.

I guess some retaliation could be expected from the Algerian government (owner of AH) under the form of restrictions/revokation of rights for EU airlines which have profitably returned to the Algerian market in the last few years (AF, LH, IB, AZ, TP, JK, ZI, ...).

This being said I actually see this as some threatening by the EU rather than a real possibility.

Quoting AH332 (Reply 5):
the other a 732 that crashed after take off from TMR (Tamanrassett).

I remember being interested by the investigation about this accident, and reading the final investigation report, as it was released around the time of my first AH flight (ATR-72 domestic).

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2003/7t-z030306a/pdf/7t-z030306a.pdf

I don't have time to read it now, but if I remember correctly, while no significant shortcomings were found in the state/maintenance of the aircraft involved, it revealed some major failures in flight deck procedures / discipline such as :

Quote:

- The pre-start-up and pre-takeoff checklists were not performed. The emergency
procedures were not mentioned.

- There was no communication between the Captain and the co-pilot concerning
an emergency situation (identification of the nature of the problem).

- the perfunctory flight preparation, which meant that the crew were not equipped
to face the situation that occurred at a critical moment of the flight;

- the absence of any teamwork after the engine failure, which led to a failure to
detect and correct parameters related to the conduct of the flight (speed, rate of
climb, configuration, etc.);

etc...

I know quite a few Algerians who regularly complain about AH (customer service, delays) and who now try to avoid it when they travel to Algeria. My own experience of domestic AH flights showed an evident lack of organization, which lead me to wonder how more critical aspects were managed.

Regards
BrusselsSouth


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9363 times:

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 7):
AH flightdeck crew are good, there are some minor glitches which the EU is having in its radar

If the EU threatens an airline with a blacklisting or starts thinking about it, then there are serious things wrong with that airline, otherwise they wouldn't do so!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
Being on a black list is not a question of how many accident an airline had.

Indeed.

You're a dangerous airline not only if you end up in dangerous situations all the time, but also when you don't do everything possible to avoid ending up in dangerous situations in the first place...

Seems like Air Algerie is accused of just that indeed: not being ready when things would go wrong. That things haven't yet, isn't so much proof of how good they are as some here seem to think, but rather just how lucky they have been so far.

The EU blacklisting is a wonderful tool to increase safety standards of airlines outside of the jurisdiction of the EU and has already lead to several airlines being forced to raise the standards: seems like Air Algerie is the next one to undergo the 'special treatment'.  

[Edited 2010-09-06 04:39:00]

User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9065 times:

It's always surprising me to see African carriers on the EU black list. I'm just reading a book »La face cachée d'Air France» or in English «The hidden face of Air France» and my conclusion is that Air France should be put on the black list. But we all know that this will never happen even if the rate of accident is highest that the one of many african carriers.

User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8936 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 11):
It's always surprising me to see African carriers on the EU black list. I'm just reading a book »La face cachée d'Air France» or in English «The hidden face of Air France» and my conclusion is that Air France should be put on the black list. But we all know that this will never happen even if the rate of accident is highest that the one of many african carriers.

Accidents can happen for a multitude of reasons, however.

Whereas no company is exempted from having an accident, ALL airlines should be able to avoid incidents (and accidents) by following manufacturer's guidelines on how to maintain their planes to the letter, or by having standard, abnormal and emergency operating procedures for crews in place not only in theory, but also in real.

Airlines that think it is okay for their crews to skip checklists from time to time when time pressure is met or feel crew briefings aren't an important CRM tool for which even an all important slot should be missed if not completed in time, airlines that let their crews fly with expired licenses (even if for just a few days) or airlines that think maintenance intervals can be stretched a bit should be banned from flying in the EU; it's as simple as that really.

Whether or not these airlines happen to have better accident rates than those who do take basic safety tools serious has nothing to do with it really.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7932 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 11):
It's always surprising me to see African carriers on the EU black list. I'm just reading a book »La face cachée d'Air France» or in English «The hidden face of Air France» and my conclusion is that Air France should be put on the black list. But we all know that this will never happen even if the rate of accident is highest that the one of many african carriers.

You should send your conclusion to the French DGAC, as obviously, you are an Aviation Expert, just as the journalists who wrote that book ...   


User currently offlinefoxxray From France, joined May 2005, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

I remember being parked next to an Air Algérie 727 at Metz Nancy Lorraine (back in 2004) with two bald tires on the same diabolo... i was really surprised but the crew wasn't (apparently) !!!!

They load a lot of weird stuff into the baggages hold such as car doors, tires, bumper, cooked food into large containers without any protection, very old television, outdoor lounge chairs...

When i used to land regularly at Metz Nancy Lorraine, ramp agent told that AH was never (really never) on time !


User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 10):
If the EU threatens an airline with a blacklisting or starts thinking about it, then there are serious things wrong with that airline, otherwise they wouldn't do so!

I could not agrea more. I am surprised that some people are so easy on this subject.
Better safe then sorry I say.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5973 times:

Quoting foxxray (Reply 14):
I remember being parked next to an Air Algérie 727 at Metz Nancy Lorraine (back in 2004) with two bald tires on the same diabolo... i was really surprised but the crew wasn't (apparently) !!!!

Lots of airlines fly with bald tires, depending on the tyre up to 4-6 layers of fabric may be visible with the tyre still ok.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2463 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5968 times:

Well, I have made it safely Tunis on flight AH4000 this afternoon. The flight departed with a 40min delay because one of the air crew was late. Not very professional indeed.

One AH pilot was amongst the passengers and he told me that it happens frequently that some of the crew turn up late for their flights. He also told me that most of the pilots at AH are observing Ramadan which made me a bit nervous especially that the air crew on the 16:00 flight would have had a long day without food and water.

The flight was on a 737-600 which was a bit dirty! Trip report to follow.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6122 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

I think the idea of the black list is rather good, but it has drawbacks. You must be able to put any airline on the list if it deserves it, without political intervention. This is not guaranteed here. Also, you induce a false sense of security for some travellers : if it's not on the list it's a safe airline. But of course some airlines are not on the list just because they do not fly to the EU.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 16):
Lots of airlines fly with bald tires, depending on the tyre up to 4-6 layers of fabric may be visible with the tyre still ok.

/Lars

OK for what ? Sustaining a landing without bursting ? Or provide adequate friction when braking ? It's not the same thing.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMHTripple7 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1100 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
But of course some airlines are not on the list just because they do not fly to the EU.

The EU seems to have no problem blacklisting carriers who never have or never will fly to Europe. This is where people will get the assumption that if a carrier is not on the EU Blacklist, then it's safe.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
OK for what ? Sustaining a landing without bursting ? Or provide adequate friction when braking ? It's not the same thing.

actually it is, I've seen several manulas perscribing change of tires only when 4-6 layers of fabric was visible. If it was dangerous I hardly doubt that regulators what allow that. The main problem about wearing the tires down to the fabric is that they cannot be recapped which means you must buy a new tyre which is expensive.
Looking at Dunlops General Practices manual, for non retreadable tyres: page 306
(1) Remove and discard a non-retreadable tyre if it is worn to these limits:
(a) For a bias (cross-ply) tyre, the first time the casing ply can be seen (at the
location where the wear occurs most quickly).
(b) For a radial-ply tyre, the first time the nylon belt can be seen (at the location
where the wear occurs most quickly)
And then look at figure 4 on page 10
http://www.dunlopaircrafttyres.com/tech_support/dm1172/DM1172.pdf

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6122 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5783 times:

Quoting MHTripple7 (Reply 19):
The EU seems to have no problem blacklisting carriers who never have or never will fly to Europe. This is where people will get the assumption that if a carrier is not on the EU Blacklist, then it's safe.

I know. Entire countries are banned. But nonetheless, other aren't, just because the country is not as bad, and the carrier is regional, so the EU can't know if it's safe or not.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 20):

Interesting. I'm not sure I understand correctly. Can you see the fabric on one little sport and be OK, or can you fly with all the tire worn to the fabric ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAH332 From Algeria, joined Mar 2007, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5636 times:

Hi,

Quoting BrusselsSouth (Reply 9):
I know quite a few Algerians who regularly complain about AH (customer service, delays) and who now try to avoid it when they travel to Algeria. My own experience of domestic AH flights showed an evident lack of organization, which lead me to wonder how more critical aspects were managed.

Hello BrusselsSouth, I hope all is well with you and your family!  

Unfortunately it seems to be the way things are in Algeria. We Algerians, even those living abroad, know the mentality and don't expect much when we are there. There is no such thing as customer service, organization, etc. I guess for us Algerians it's part of the charm of the country and it'd be weird if we went and saw things organized or had proper customer service!

That being said I see improvements every time I go, but we still have a long, long road ahead of us.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 17):
Well, I have made it safely Tunis on flight AH4000 this afternoon. The flight departed with a 40min delay because one of the air crew was late. Not very professional indeed.

Glad you made it safely! Looking forward to your trip report, and try not to be too hard on AH!   hahaha

Cheers,
Imad



Bledi Heya Al Djazaeer! // Next Flights: AB MIA-DUS-ORY, AF ORY-MRS-ALG
User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

I'm an aviation enthusiast since 1971 and I noticed a lot of things regarding Arab carriers VS Air France. More that, I did 2 master degrees about air transport. I'm not following the journalist because I'm always suspicious about them. I have worked with flying instructors and with people working for airliners such as Air Canada and Air France and the overall record of Air France is not as good as the one of British Airways or Lufthansa. Nobody is forced to believe me but when
I'm writing about something it's not my own perception it's because I made some research.


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 23):
Nobody is forced to believe me but when I'm writing about something it's not my own perception it's because I made some research

FWIW, contrary to what you propose, no EU carrier can be blacklisted since the idea of the blacklist is to keep non-EU carriers which are not respecting minimum safety standards out of our skies thus protecting European pax flying on foreign airlines.

Since EU carriers are supervised by the aviation authorities of one of the EU member states, they are automatically following all European standards.

If not, then the appropriate worst-case sanction for not doing so is to suspend their AOC all together, meaning not only are they then banned from flying to/from the EU like in case of blacklisting, but rather are they grounded completely....

I should say understanding all this is elementary.


25 CHRISBA777ER : It would be a shame if they were - loving seeing their A330s into LHR.
26 Aesma : Let's say there are safety concerns with AF (some would say it's also a cultural thing in France). Are you sure you want to compare them with others
27 foxxray : Lots of airlines fly with both bald tires on the same diabolo ???? tell which, so i can avoid them... As a pilot, during pre flight inspection, i alw
28 Post contains images TS-IOR : Is observing Ramadan a reason or an excuse ?! Most of Tunisair, Nouvelair, and all other Muslim crews fast during Ramadan and that doesn't affect thei
29 AIR MALTA : It neither a reason nor an excuse. It was a comment from my side. I have to tell you the truth. I am not comfortable flying an airplane where the cre
30 LIPZ : Not strictly related to the topic, anyway Air Algérie will drop Algiers to Milan and Moscow flights next month. Instead they plan to increase Barcelo
31 AH332 : Hi, That's a shame! I was skeptical on the Milan route since AZ/AP couldn't make it work. But Moscow has been in the AH network for a long time, albei
32 LIPZ : Sorry I was wrong. Moscow is confirmed, always just 1 time per week. : - )
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