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BE Announce BHD-LPL, EMA, BRS  
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Following FR’s announcement that it'll cease all its flights to/from BHD* – namely STN, BRS, EMA, LPL, and PIK – BE, the dominant carrier at BHD, has predictably announced new routes to/from BHD:

Per this link**, “Flybe will operate up to two daily flights to Bristol, two daily flights to East Midlands and up to four daily flights to Liverpool with fares starting at just £24.99 one way, including taxes and charges for each of the three new services. In addition, the airline will increase its daily service to Glasgow with an additional flight to cope with additional anticipated demand.”

Note that EMA (my local airport) will be a new airport for BE. I recall that BE used to serve LPL from BRS - and, if I remember properly, with frequencies up to 4x per weekday.

Those reading this might be interested in FR’s traffic on its routes to/from BHD in 2009***:

STN = 328,619
BRS = 79,014
EMA = 162,271
LPL = 158,172
PIK = 91,672

* http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryana...close-belfast-city-base-1-aircraft
** http://www.flybe.com/news/1009/06.htm
*** http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...om_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2009.pdf

[Edited 2010-09-07 02:29:26]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Currently (FR) > To be (BE)
BHD-LPL: 3x daily > 4x daily
BHD-EMA: 3x daily > 2x daily
BHD-BRS: 2x daily > 2x daily
BHD-PIK: 1x daily > 1x daily added to their BHD-GLA schedule
BHD-STN: 4x daily > 0.

Frequencies stay pretty much similar (except STN), but the capacity decrease is huge.
FR uses their B738 while BE will use a DHC-8-400 Dash 8Q for the LPL route.

As an example, let's take the Belfast - Liverpool route.

BHD-LPL: FR currently flies 3x daily each way (max 189pax), BE will fly 4x (max 68pax).
Return BHD-LPL in FR, random midweek dates in October, £16.
Return BHD-LPL in BE, random midweek dates in November, £98.
Return BFS-LPL in U2, random midweek dates in November, £38.
Seems like the route will be operated by DHC-8-400 Dash 8Q.

My opinion is: Current FR passengers choose to fly Ryanair either because of their low fares or because of the BHD airport convenience (much closer to Belfast city center than BFS). Those passengers that travel FR for the low fares will have to move to Belfast Intl Airport BFS and fly EasyJet. Those that what they want is the convenience of BHD airport will use FlyBE and pay higher fares.

I wish FlyBE good luck on this... They will need it.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3001 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

easyJet might pick up some of the slack to BHD from the London airports...

Earlier this year, easyJet switched their LTN to BFS service to BHD. At the same time they also reduced frequency from 3-4 flights a day to just 2 from LTN - An early morning and early evening rotation.

Before the Ryanair announcement, easyJet already announced they would be increasing the new LTN-BHD service to three times daily. Wouldn't surprise me if easyJet now add a forth daily rotation or even maybe start flying from LGW or STN to BHD, in addition to their BFS service.

I know Ryanair had to place load restrictions on their 738's operating to BHD, does easyJet have to do the same... I appreciate BMI also operate the A319's into Belfast City, but obviously don't have the same capacity issue as the easyJet aircraft. Or are easyJet using their last few 737-700's based at LTN on the route, which are supposed to have a very good take off performance.


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Note that EMA (my local airport) will be a new airport for BE. I recall that BE used to serve LPL from BRS - and, if I remember properly, with frequencies up to 4x per weekday.

I had been wondering why BE didn't fly to EMA, especially after U2's exit. It seemed particularly ripe then and now.

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
EMA = 162,271

I wonder how much revenue these brought in, though. I paid 2 pence with free online check-in and checked no bags. I'm sure even O'Leary couldn't make money off that.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 2):
I know Ryanair had to place load restrictions on their 738's operating to BHD

If there were any, I sure didn't see them. Flight I took had maybe 3 empty seats.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3001 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 3):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 2):
I know Ryanair had to place load restrictions on their 738's operating to BHD

If there were any, I sure didn't see them. Flight I took had maybe 3 empty seats.

Unable to edit my original post, but I think you are right... They are however restricted by the runway to operate longer distant flights other than to the UK and nearby mainland Europe.


User currently offlineemalad From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

BE are not my favourite airline, but will be nice to see them at EMA  

User currently offlineflywrite From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2910 times:
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I personally find it quite refreshing to see another airline displaying predatory behaviour towards FR. It's usually the other way around.

Flybe have targeted Bournemouth and now Belfast City routes that Ryanair have abandoned. I agree that a lot of pax will still want the lower fares, so will go to easyJet out of Belfast International. But Flybe's smaller aircraft and convenience of using City will give them good loads in my opinion.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 6):
I personally find it quite refreshing to see another airline displaying predatory behaviour towards FR.

What "predatory behaviour"? BE decided to enter the markets AFTER FR announced that they're stopping or after they have stopped. Thus, they have not acted in a predatory manner. In my view, it's good that they (or, indeed, another) carrier enters once another ceases - if they believe they can make profit from it.

Quoting flywrite (Reply 6):
Flybe's smaller aircraft and convenience of using City will give them good loads in my opinion.

Good loads is one thing - making profit from them is another. Loads are just one part of the equation, the others being costs and yields. Do not automatically assume that high loads means that routes are profitable.

[Edited 2010-09-08 03:41:13]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1796 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 6):
Flybe have targeted Bournemouth and now Belfast City routes that Ryanair have abandoned.

Ryanair never served MAN-BOH...


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 770 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):

Those reading this might be interested in FR’s traffic on its routes to/from BHD in 2009***:

STN = 328,619
BRS = 79,014
EMA = 162,271
LPL = 158,172
PIK = 91,672

averages per flight...
STN - 328619/365 = 900 per day/8 flights= 112 per flight
LPL - 158172/365=433/6 = 72 per flight
BRS - 79014/365=216/4 = 54 per flight
PIK - 91672/365=251/2=125 per flight
EMA - 162761/365=445/6=74 per flight

So LPL/BRS and EMA loads were well under 50% on a B738, the others weren't much better. Maybe RYR are cutting and running for a reason?!


User currently offlineSAM1987 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 946 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 9):
averages per flight...
STN - 328619/365 = 900 per day/8 flights= 112 per flight
LPL - 158172/365=433/6 = 72 per flight
BRS - 79014/365=216/4 = 54 per flight
PIK - 91672/365=251/2=125 per flight
EMA - 162761/365=445/6=74 per flight

So LPL/BRS and EMA loads were well under 50% on a B738, the others weren't much better. Maybe RYR are cutting and running for a reason?!

Take with a pinch of salt not all of the routes were operating for the whole of 2009. When did BRS start? And wasn't BRS once daily not twice daily?



Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2584 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 4):
They are however restricted by the runway to operate longer distant flights other than to the UK and nearby mainland Europe.

But the is/was nothing to stop them starting 'those' flights from BFS.......certainly no runway restrictions there.

Quoting flywrite (Reply 6):
I agree that a lot of pax will still want the lower fares, so will go to easyJet out of Belfast International

Can you perhaps enlighten me as which to passengers don't want lower fares?

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 9):
So LPL/BRS and EMA loads were well under 50% on a B738, the others weren't much better. Maybe RYR are cutting and running for a reason?!

But you're conveniently mixing facts there. As for the last sentence, Ryanair gave the reason,....why inject a second guess simply to bolster an agenda?

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 1):
I wish FlyBE good luck on this... They will need it.

On the contrary, they should do extremely well.

Quoting flywrite (Reply 6):
I personally find it quite refreshing to see another airline displaying predatory behaviour towards FR

Considering that Flybe are taking over three of the routes which Ryanair are relinquishing, could you perhaps enlighten me how you come to the conclusion that such is predatory??? Do we have a unique definition of what is predatory here?


User currently offlineflywrite From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
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Quoting AirNZ (Reply 11):
Considering that Flybe are taking over three of the routes which Ryanair are relinquishing, could you perhaps enlighten me how you come to the conclusion that such is predatory??? Do we have a unique definition of what is predatory here?

Predatory - to exploit or prey upon something. I would have thought this was pretty obvious. Flybe aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - they're stepping in to take FR's passengers and I'm sure they'll play on the "we're here to save you from nasty Ryanair" stance. It an obvious business tactic.

As the thread opener stated

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Following FR’s announcement that it'll cease all its flights to/from BHD* – namely STN, BRS, EMA, LPL, and PIK – BE, the dominant carrier at BHD, has predictably announced new routes to/from BHD:

This is "predictable" behaviour. BE wants Ryanair's passengers on routes that it deems have worked.

[Edited 2010-09-09 02:09:51]

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 12):
Predatory - to exploit or prey upon something. I would have thought this was pretty obvious. Flybe aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - they're stepping in to take FR's passengers and I'm sure they'll play on the "we're here to save you from nasty Ryanair" stance. It an obvious business tactic.

What? Predatory behaviour would have been to enter, or threaten to enter, when FR had not announced its intention to cease the routes. And had BE done this, I cannot imagine it would have worked given FR's reputation in such matters. Think, for example, of how EZY and GO abandoned Irish routes.

Anyway, as BE only announced that it'll operate BHD to LPL, BRS, and EMA after FR's announcement had been made, its behaviour is therefore not predatory. It might have been predictable that BE would take over some abandoned routes given BE's dominance at BHD, its intention to remain so, and that FR is giving up created markets, some with fairly significant traffic (although I suggest rather price-sensitive), but it is not predatory behaviour. It is merely taking up the reigns after the cessation, much like My Wings announcing FDH-LGW to take advantage of the void left by FR when it ceased FDH-STN.

Quoting flywrite (Reply 12):
This is "predictable" behaviour. BE wants Ryanair's passengers on routes that it deems have worked.

Yes, it wants the pre-created markets where it deems it can earn profit. That's great and predictable. But, it is not predatory conduct as it waited until after FR announced that it'll be ceasing the routes and thus stopped selling its inventory after the final date. Had BE decided to challenge FR by operating the routes concurrently with the intention of driving FR off the routes - a strategy that almost certainly would not have worked - then that would be predatory behaviour.

[Edited 2010-09-09 02:26:06]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 13):
Yes, it wants the pre-created markets where it deems it can earn profit. That's great and predictable.

Added to which, the likes of BHD - LPL, EMA and BRS are routes which effectively have to be served....certainly in terms of UK domestic connections. Much in the same way that BE stepped in to offer LBA - LON when BD departed. Nothing predatory about it at all, just very good business practice,


User currently offlineflywrite From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2470 times:
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It's crazy how forums make people so argumentative. Calm down!

User currently offlinenqyguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Quoting SAM1987 (Reply 10):
When did BRS start? And wasn't BRS once daily not twice daily?

BRS was twice daily. One morning or early afternoon and one evening. The route started in March 2009.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19188 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2398 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 15):
It's crazy how forums make people so argumentative. Calm down!

We simply corrected you. Don't get offended.

[Edited 2010-09-09 06:49:49]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinerichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Hi

Is there any chance that BE will start STN-BHD? (They used to fly it but at the time I think they were still Jersey European)

I guess there is more chance of Easyjet starting the service.

Alex


User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 15):
It's crazy how forums make people so argumentative. Calm down!

No, you made a fair point, but it's extremely unusual for any carrier to display predatory tactics against FR for the simple reason that history shows that FR win! I would guess the going on behind the scenes is the fact that 738s have proved too big for FR's routes ex-BHD and that in order to keep its route network intact, BHD management have simply 'orchestrated' this transfer (from FR to BE) so that the closure of FR coincides with the replacement by BE.

I wouldn't pay much heed to O'Leary's bleetings about this being the result of the failure after 3 years to provide a runway extension. Of course, FR might have had plans for BHD but the length of runway is possibly only one part of the story.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Quoting flywrite (Reply 12):
Predatory - to exploit or prey upon something. I would have thought this was pretty obvious. Flybe aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts - they're stepping in to take FR's passengers and I'm sure they'll play on the "we're here to save you from nasty Ryanair" stance. It an obvious business tactic.

No, what is 'pretty obvious' is that you are playing with words only for effect.......and clearly shown in that you originally used the term as "toward FR", but have now changed it to "take FR's passengers". So, I'll thus ask you to explain how they "take FR's passengers" when, by relinquishing the routes, they are no longer passengers of FR. They were passengers on a route(s) which one airline has relinquished and another airline is entering. How does such possibly fit the common-sense definition of predatory? So are you saying if any airline begins a route from A to B they are automatically being 'predatory'. If not, please give me an example where more than one airline on a route is, in your mind, not then predatory. I don't believe anyone ever claimed BE are "doing this out of the goodness of their hearts"......it's a fundamental, and valid business decision so how can you realistically use the term 'predatory' and an "obvious business tactic" in the same argument? So again, what airline flies any route 'out of the goodness of their hearts'?

Quoting flywrite (Reply 12):
This is "predictable" behaviour. BE wants Ryanair's passengers on routes that it deems have worked.

Sorry, explain this better please.......because you seem to somehow believe that this is unique as opposed to it being the natural everyday business environment in aviation worldwide. Of course they worked.....so BE are now entering three of the routes which FR have relinquished. What are you missing here?

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 19):
BHD management have simply 'orchestrated' this transfer (from FR to BE) so that the closure of FR coincides with the replacement by BE.

Absolutely incorrect.....and you're basing it on what fact? This is clearly shown by:

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 19):
Of course, FR might have had plans for BHD but the length of runway is possibly only one part of the story.

There was very definitive plans for FR operating out of BHD when they entered, and you don't seem to know that a runway extension was a defining condition/factor. I personally don't agree with any extension, but fully acknowledge that a promise of such was the defining factor and thus FR validly can decide now to withdraw.


User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2174 times:
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Isn't BHD also under a cap on passenger numbers? Hardly conducive for FR to have 3 or 4 aircraft based if they are going to be passenger restricted.

User currently offlinemainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 20):
Absolutely incorrect.....and you're basing it on what fact? This is clearly shown by

I'm basing it on the fact that I don't believe FR could have made any money from BHD. I'm a management accountant, and in my experience, there's only one reason for any business to contract.


User currently offlineLuke From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 1):
My opinion is: Current FR passengers choose to fly Ryanair either because of their low fares or because of the BHD airport convenience (much closer to Belfast city center than BFS). Those passengers that travel FR for the low fares will have to move to Belfast Intl Airport BFS and fly EasyJet. Those that what they want is the convenience of BHD airport will use FlyBE and pay higher fares.

Absolutely agree with you. Unlike FR, BE primarily target high-yielding business passengers and are less interested in those pax that will only fly for a rock bottom fare. It's a different model (with a higher cost base compared to FR) and explains why reducing capacity but maintaining the decent frequency levels that are so important for biz pax on these routes makes sense for BE.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting Luke (Reply 23):
Unlike FR, BE primarily target high-yielding business passengers and are less interested in those pax that will only fly for a rock bottom fare.

They do absolutely nothing of the sort! Of course they target business passengers (and I'll challenge you to name me an airline which doesn't), but not exclusively and most certainly are interested in all passengers!! By the way, in case you weren't aware, Ryanair also fly many business passengers.

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 22):
I'm basing it on the fact that I don't believe FR could have made any money from BHD.

Let me get this straight....you're basing it on a FACT, but which you then clearly say is only a belief. In other words, you're only stating an opinion so again I will tell you that you are incorrect in that opinion.
As a matter of interest however, my reply was related directly to your claim that BHD management orchestrated a 'coinciding' transfer, and nothing to do with profitability......do you then also only believe that to be the case too as I did clearly ask on what factual basis you were making that claim, but which you haven't given?

Quoting mainMAN (Reply 22):
I'm a management accountant, and in my experience, there's only one reason for any business to contract.

With respect, one should also cite their experience to what they actually know to be fact.


User currently offlineLuke From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 24):
They do absolutely nothing of the sort! Of course they target business passengers (and I'll challenge you to name me an airline which doesn't), but not exclusively and most certainly are interested in all passengers!! By the way, in case you weren't aware, Ryanair also fly many business passengers.

Since you seem to be on a mission to disagree with everyone posting on this thread, I won't feel too offended by your criticism!! In fact, I wont feel offended at all since you have criticised me for saying something that I did not even say!

At no point did I say that BE exclusively targets business passengers. They clearly do have a stronger focus on the business passenger compared to FR, for example they sell flexible tickets priced at around three times that of a standard ticket, and these flexible tickets sell very well.

If they were interested in all passengers, including those who will only fly at a rock bottom fare, then I would think that they'd actually offer such rock bottom fares in the first place, don't you agree? (Have you ever agreed with anyone?!) Instead they start fares at around £60 return domestic, and that's only available if booked far in advance and increases rapidly near to the date of departure. So my agreement with downtown273 that those price sensitive customers will move to BFS is valid. This by definition leaves higher yielding passengers as the main market for BE's BHD services.


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