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Delta Incident In JFK 14th Aug 2010  
User currently offlinepictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24285 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOSdTRu9Viw

What happened there? and How did it happen?

Delta B744 hit the tow tug, luckily all the ramp agents cleared the aircraft before it hit the tow tug.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenetjets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24283 times:

Seems like the pilots would have known it was there, it would be interesting to know what really happened!

User currently offlineericaasen From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24287 times:

All I can say is Holy Crap!

And just how strong is the nose gear of 744?! That tractor's gotta weigh several tons and it shoved it out of the way without breaking a sweat and not collapsing!


User currently offlinejetMARC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24202 times:

It's obvious the plane was going to be towed into the gate. Probably wasn't connected to the tow bar properly or it failed and when the pilots released the brakes, the plane simply rolled into the tug. The pilots probably can't see it since they ramper had to walk way out infront to signal the pilots from the ground with his wands. Don't forget, the plane weighs several more tons than the tug that can handle a hard landing when the plane noseovers on touchdown.


"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24197 times:

Quoting ericaasen (Reply 2):
That tractor's gotta weigh several tons and it shoved it out of the way without breaking a sweat and not collapsing!

The tug we have in DEN to push 744's weighs 60 tons. At least so I'm told. I'm 6'5" and the tires on that thing are taller than me. Wish I had a diesel that big in my pickup truck  


User currently offlineua777222 From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24058 times:

I'm not up to speed with ground ops but why would someone tug an aircraft into a gate? Does the aircraft shut down before getting hooked up and pulled in?


"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24045 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 5):

Towing planes into certain gates is a necessary procedure in tight quarters. The plane will stop at a designate spot, shut down, and be towed the rest of the way into the gate.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 23952 times:

i doubt the plane was shut off since you see one ramper did run up to put the signal to stop and once he stopped and walked forward again the plane moved forward, i believe the engines weere running or the tug would have stopped the plane, also the tug's brakes would have been off and the transmission in nutral at the time or i believe the nose wheel would in fact have collapsed. since there is no sound as it was a security camera we don't know for sure but i don't see the blades of the engines which at that angle you should tell if they were stopped and engines shut down.

ps that being said I could very well be wrong of course, I wasn't there. But i also don't see anyone on the headset either which is SOP where I work when you have to tow a plane in for whatever reason.

[Edited 2010-09-09 23:21:17]

User currently offlineiliribdl From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23344 times:

So was the aircraft damaged from that?


delta.com
User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23300 times:

Wow! One sec, since when did DL send 747s to and from JFK?

User currently offlineiliribdl From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23253 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
Wow! One sec, since when did DL send 747s to and from JFK?

Goes to TLV daily.



delta.com
User currently offlinedlramper From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22879 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):

Goes to NRT daily, also.


User currently offlineJETnyc From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 109 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22856 times:

If you look very close all of the engines are still on by looking at the swirl just inside the cowling. Also one of the rampers moved forward of the aircraft making motions for some one to make a move .     

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22674 times:

I fly in and out of JFK a fair bit (admittedly though LGA is my home airport), but that doesn't look like a gate where a tow in is required. I could be wrong though. It would be interesting to see what happened.

User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22627 times:

Woah, that's crazy  Wow!


Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineairforceatc944 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22596 times:

Quoting JETnyc (Reply 12):


I don't know. To me it looks like the ramper that signaled to the plane had his hands crossed motioning a stop. Maybe that was his attempt at trying to get the pilots to shutdown the engines?   


User currently offlinedwcontroller From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22555 times:

Don't want to make a huge assumption but i'm going to say pilot error here, that or who ever was in the cockpit. Doesn't delta use a repositioning crew in JFK to bring the planes from the parking pad south of Terminal 4? They may have thought the brakes were set while waiting to be towed in...when they simply weren't.


Best phrase to hear at the airport - "All standbys have been cleared and may board at this time"
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22556 times:

Obviously, the interphone wasn't working between the ground and cockpit. The ramper made the signal, I believe, that the bypass pin had been insterted in the nose gear, thereby, bypassing hydraulics and steering from the nose gear. I can't for the life of me figure out why the cockpit crew would have decided to pull forward, as they knew they were going to be towed. At this stage, everything was in the hands of the ramp crew and the flight crew would just sit there until they'd been towed in.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 21793 times:

Seems to me there was mis-communication with the ramper that was supposidly signalling something. If the crew were to be towed in the engines would have been shutdown prior to this, also notice how the tow bar was not connected to the tug and was pulled out of the way it seems by the ramper or something over to the side as it was not connected to neither the tug or the aircraft. I also noticed that the ramper that was on the ground signalling something, without wands just walked away, at JFK they have the auto park systems so something was right, because its quite evident that the ground crew was not plugged into the plane and something more was going on here because if they knew they were getting pulled in the engines would have been shut down or certainly not at the point that would cause the aircraft to jump forward like that.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 21385 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 13):
I fly in and out of JFK a fair bit (admittedly though LGA is my home airport), but that doesn't look like a gate where a tow in is required. I could be wrong though. It would be interesting to see what happened.

It looks to me like it was a gate that required it. If I recall, when Delta operated 777s to JFK this was the same gate they used.

Does anyone know if the old Pan Am gate indicator lights are still in use?


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 21109 times:

You can definitely see engines 1 and 2 spinning in the video, 3 is questionable.

Anywho, someone in the cockpit should ALWAYS know what is happening on the ground.... if they did know what was going on, they wouldn't have rammed the tug. Also, they're very lucky one of the 3 rampers didn't get seriously injured.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineSpunker From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20966 times:

Looks like the ramper way in front of the 744 is at fault. When he brought his arms/hands back down I'll bet the pilot thought all was secure and they were all hooked up so he released the brakes. The tow bar wasn't even attached when the 744 started to roll. Boeing builds em' tough.

User currently offlineKDTWflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19488 times:

I like how it just rams its way forward like it was effortless. Any idea how much those tugs weigh?


NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
User currently offlinenjxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19229 times:

http://www.tca-charter.de/Special%20Cargo/Pushback_Truck.html

This tug weighs 65,000 lbs. i don't think 120,000...at least not very commonly?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
The tug we have in DEN to push 744's weighs 60 tons. At least so I'm told.

That is one heavy chunk to run your landing gear into.


User currently offlineairbuske From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19142 times:

The Crew screwed up and released the brakes during the tow bar attachment. The NLG was repaired/inspected.

25 Post contains images gaffie : Seems to me that this was most likely a simple miscommunication between the flight crew and ground crews. Possibly due, in part, to pilot fatigue.....
26 Post contains images jayeshrulz : LMAO! Lol, that was funny! . What happened here was that the pilot thought the tug is attached to the gear. This however was not the case. He released
27 Post contains images skygirl1990 : *Cringe* That looked a) expensive, and b) like someone may be sweeping the hangars for a bit...! x Jessie x
28 contrails15 : Looks like this was a tow-in. Definitely looks like signals were crossed on this one. Breaks got released and she rolled ALOT. This is extremely dange
29 ACABlaker : I agree with Spunker, the Flight Lead puts up his hands for the pilots to hold his position with the parking brake. When he brings his hands down to w
30 mayor : To me it looks like a flight deck problem. As you say, the guy on the ramp is telling him to put his brakes on, but never tells him to release the br
31 catiii : Sometimes its better to be lucky than good: happened to be sitting next to a deadheading DL pilot tonight flying into LGA, who tells me that the gate
32 nwaesc : Judging by the way they all run for daylight, maybe they heard the engines spool up right before seeing the wheels start to roll? No it wasn't. What'
33 yvphx : Okay here's my input on this. The guy at the "T" by the gate makes the signal for "breaks on" then walks away. About 5 seconds later the 744 starts mo
34 jfk777 : Why would they have to tow it in, Pan AM operated 747 into that building on plane power. SO have Virgin Atlantic, Swissair, SAA & CATHAY. All thos
35 BMI727 : It's not the terminal necessarily. Usually its specific gates that are tow gates. Plus the type of aircraft at adjacent gates may also be a factor.
36 DAL1044 : The video has been removed. Dang it I was late getting home today. I would have liked to have watched it.
37 Post contains links N6238P : Heres another link for it. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8e_1284135661 Just becareful about other videos on that site.
38 Post contains links Monocleman : For those interested http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8e_1284135661
39 DTWLAX : How can you be so sure? While everybody here seems to be speculating about what happened, you surely seem to know exactly what happened... that too s
40 FlyDeltaJets : all aircraft types above 767-300 are tow in on all gates in Terminals 2 and 3.[Edited 2010-09-10 22:33:05]
41 EGCC777LR : What surprises me most about this video is how long it takes the flight crew to stop her once she is rolling They most have realised due to the speed
42 mayor : I realize the flight deck is further away, but they should know from the start of the tow that they are, indeed, being towed. You can feel the initia
43 etherealsky : That's what I was thinking. However, does a 747 with engines idling really roll on its own from a standstill? I was under the impression that the thr
44 mayor : Now that I've reviewed DL's hand signals, I don't know what he was signalling to the flight deck. The closet I see is chocks in or chocks out and that
45 catiii : That gate has an upslope, requiring a tow in (heavy jet blast from a power in damages equipment, etc behind it). That's what I thought he was doing a
46 pictues : so by catii the pilot had to power up to move, so this seems to be a major miss communication between the flight deck and ground. Of course the real s
47 Post contains images par13del : My firts point of speculation failure, we assume they knew. Questions: 1. On landing did they know which gate they would use of were they informed du
48 Post contains links Zeke : The Flight Golbal article, with a video embedded http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...47-shunts-tow-tractor-at-gate.html You would have no indicati
49 mayor : I'm not saying by sight, but by feel. You can feel when you're being towed, particularly when first starting. I don't believe there was, therefore th
50 dlramper : Unless JFK has different procedures, the ramp crew is to blame as well as the flight crew. The procedure for the ramp guy at the T, for them to make t
51 readytotaxi : Is there no requirement for ground crew to be in contact with the cockpit when attaching a tug to the nose gear?
52 dlramper : Yes, either via headset or hand signals.
53 catiii : I was explaining the reason for the tow in. At that gate, because of the grade up, heavy jets are towed in and do not power in because the power requ
54 ericaasen : To me it looks like the marshaller is giving the stop sign, wands crossed above the head. Just like when you would tell the pilot to stop when the pl
55 pictues : I realize that, but since you say it is a grade up then if the engines were shut down then when the pilot released brakes the plane would have rolled
56 FlyDeltaJets : The full story that I got today from a friend on DL ramp after the FAA investigation. The crew pulled the plane up to the point that the ramp signaled
57 catiii : I'm not upset, and there's no reason to get upset over a message board. Just calrifying what I had said.
58 Quokka : I am amazed. Luckily no-one was hurt and the ground staff had time to run out of the way. Is there no communication between the flight deck and the g
59 mayor : Exactly. That's a dangerous situation if you're not sure what signal you've been given. As for not knowing what a signal means, DL (and I imagine NW
60 contrails15 : We always have a headset hooked up to talk to the flightdeck And that is why I aways use a headset. I asked myself the same thing after reviewing this
61 mayor : There are times when the headset is not working, however. Looking at the video, it's almost like the arrival caught the ground crew unawares and they
62 nwaesc : WTF? Good thing they weren't signaling a brake or engine fire, then... They've been aligned for a long time now.
63 FlyDeltaJets : The signals were for the most part the same except for a few differences. The signals were aligned before the merger was completed. Flight crew PMNW,
64 Post contains images mayor : I just wondered if maybe the pilots missed the memo............
65 cokepopper : Anyone happen to know what ship # this was?
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