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FAA Overhaul: Pilots To Get More Rest.  
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7894 times:
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Babbit and Lahood are having a pow wow in DC today to make an announcement that would give pilot rest rules an overhaul. FAA standards on this subject haven't been updated since 1985.  article

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenetjets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7861 times:

I think this is a very good idea.

User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7806 times:

Interesting. According to the proposal, the permissible flying time is increased to 10 hours from 8, but the allowable work day is decreased from 16 to 13 hours. If it goes through, will this have a significant effect on crew scheduling? How does this affect long-haul flights?

User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7684 times:
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Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
If it goes through, will this have a significant effect on crew scheduling?

I doubt it. They've been conducting a work study since 1985.  


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7630 times:

.....and the FA's still have no limit. I'm anxious to see if our work rules are adjusted.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7567 times:

Here they are:

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...published/media/FAA_2010_22626.pdf


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24834 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7439 times:

Note - this is only a notice of Proposed rule making. The FAA is seeking industry comment and input.

Looking at its proposal, the new rules are not only quite complex and but in the FAA's own analysis would cost the industry hundreds of millions annually in added operating cost if implemented.

So its good, the FAA finally put out something formally to be reviewed, however I would expect vigorous debate from all parties to follow in the coming months.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7281 times:

For those flying internationally:

Minimum Rest Prior to Duty - International: 9 hours
Maximum Flight Duty Time - Unaugmented: 9-13 depending on start time and number of flight segments
Maximum Flight Duty Time - Augmented: 12-18 depending on start time, crew size, and aircraft rest facility
Maximum Flight Time - Unaugmented: 8-10 depending on FDP start time



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7250 times:

I see what its getting at, DL's pilots have a required 8hrs "behind the door" meaning they have 8hrs rest at the hotel... however, in reality that 8hrs isn't enough rest because often times that doesn't include time to eat shower etc. Considering your supposed to get around 8hrs of sleep a night.... but its not just a DL issue, its industry wide.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinedinker225 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1059 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7212 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 8):
I see what its getting at, DL's pilots have a required 8hrs "behind the door" meaning they have 8hrs rest at the hotel... however, in reality that 8hrs isn't enough rest because often times that doesn't include time to eat shower etc. Considering your supposed to get around 8hrs of sleep a night.... but its not just a DL issue, its industry wide.

Maybe once they finish with this study they'll go look at their own workforce. Controllers are only required to have 8 hours off between shifts. It sometimes happens twice a week that they have an 8 hour turn. And it's the same scenario as DL. That 8 hours is eaten away by commuting, eating, winding down, taking care of family matters. When it comes down to it some controllers are lucky to get 4-5 hours a night on those turns.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for the FAA.



Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7145 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 2):
Interesting. According to the proposal, the permissible flying time is increased to 10 hours from 8, but the allowable work day is decreased from 16 to 13 hours. If it goes through, will this have a significant effect on crew scheduling? How does this affect long-haul flights?

Two things I can see happening from this: One is that the regional airlines, who are already scheduling pilots to the max allowed now, are going to have to build shorter duty days which means that they will have to hire more pilots. The question becomes...after you factor in benefits and everything like that, will this make it less cost efficient for the majors to continue to outsource to the regionals.

Secondly, with the flying time increased to ten hours, this may reduce or eliminate the need for relief pilots to be carried on many european flights, since most of the flights from the eastern US to europe and vice versa are in the 6-8 hour range. Especially for carriers flying to Europe out of NYC. The downside to this from an ALPA point of view is fewer jobs obviously.

Still, decreasing the max work day but increasing max time behind the door makes no sense. And this proposal does nothing to address number of cycles on one duty day, which I think contribute more to fatigue than long duty days.


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7144 times:

What's the problem? We are all told the only issue is poorly trained and low time pilots, now that there are minimum hours hiring rules everything should be fine.

User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

The ATA is on record as saying they back new duty/rest rules that improve safety; however, the ATA is also on record as saying that these proposed rules will increase costs and could hinder/stop/reverse the recovery of the industry.

That basically translates into PLEASE DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING (OR WE'll FIGHT IT) if you ask me.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 724 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
Still, decreasing the max work day but increasing max time behind the door makes no sense. And this proposal does nothing to address number of cycles on one duty day, which I think contribute more to fatigue than long duty days


It actually directly addresses what you say it doesn't. Go down to page 31ish and 72ish... It is moving to a "segment" based system which you refer to as cycles and even gets into the start time of day for the time limits... the less segments you fly.. the more hours you can be "behind the door"... i.o.w. You can do a trans-con turn now as a single crew.. 2 flights... where it used to require 2 separate crews... but now you can't get away with having a crew do 9 segments up to 10 hours of flying... it starts restricting it down....... Also, the duty time being adjusted downward is to effectively require the airlines to schedule the pilots better... without as much "sit time"... so when doing that trans-con turn, the crew can't just go NYC-LAX and sit for a couple hours before doing the return if the airline wants to run it with the same crew and not have timeout issues... it ensures a speedy turn.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 11):
What's the problem? We are all told the only issue is poorly trained and low time pilots, now that there are minimum hours hiring rules everything should be fine.

Funny isn't it??? Wait, you mean it really wasn't just the training that was the issue.. you mean that what pilots have been saying all along might actually be a real issue...... My carrier doesn't have an 8 hr rest requirement "in room"... we just have the standard 8 hrs from duty to duty.. which starts 15 min after blocking in... while passengers are commonly still getting off the plane... yup, that's my rest... isn't it grand... on a true 8 hour overnight for me, I'm lucky to get 6 hours of sleep.. if that. It's about time these rules all changed.

[Edited 2010-09-10 11:01:11]

[Edited 2010-09-10 11:02:07]


"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlinejayhup From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
Secondly, with the flying time increased to ten hours, this may reduce or eliminate the need for relief pilots to be carried on many european flights, since most of the flights from the eastern US to europe and vice versa are in the 6-8 hour range. Especially for carriers flying to Europe out of NYC. The downside to this from an ALPA point of view is fewer jobs obviously.

Still, decreasing the max work day but increasing max time behind the door makes no sense. And this proposal does nothing to address number of cycles on one duty day, which I think contribute more to fatigue than long duty days.


On your first point that is exactly what is going to happen. Currently BA, VS, AF, etc. all do TATL up until about ORD with a two man crew so there should be a significant savings on long haul flights for CO, UA, DL, AA, etc.

And on the second point what you are not factoring in is that the new rules take into account the time of day that the FDP starts and whether or not the pilot is adjusted and/or acclimatized.

That is going to be the big learning curve for the US carriers...the concept of acclimatization and adjustment. For example...you can be working and acclimatizing at the same time.

It took me quite a while to fully understand that one but once you do it makes perfect sense (because you are getting eight hours of rest in the same time zone).

My opinion is that these rules are much easier to interpret and account for than the current FAR's.

But the regional carriers will take a beating because their pilots will be able to do less sectors in a duty period.

It's gonna be a interesting debate...

JH


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7038 times:

After my last post I was shown the chart that refers to cycles and times. I stand corrected on that. The article linked to by the OP didn't have the chart or mention that issue. Gotta love Aviation reporting.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12888 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6715 times:
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Wow... I expected to want to argue on the opposite side of where I am going to argue.

In flight test, we have a strict 'door to door' rule of 12 hours. We have booted people out of the control room (or off the flight) for breaking the 12 hour rest which includes reading the blackberry. I think 12 hours is too much.

But I also think that 9 hours is too little. I would like to see ten. One hour for commute hotel to airport. One hour for Meals and a shower and 8 hours for sleep.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 13):
we just have the standard 8 hrs from duty to duty..

Hence why I think it should be ten hours. Would you consider that reasonable?

Quoting norcal (Reply 5):
Here they are:

Thank you.

Quoting apodino (Reply 15):
I was shown the chart that refers to cycles and times.

Link? I'd be curious to see it.

Has anything been done with the maximum hours per year?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6668 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Wow... I expected to want to argue on the opposite side of where I am going to argue.

In flight test, we have a strict 'door to door' rule of 12 hours. We have booted people out of the control room (or off the flight) for breaking the 12 hour rest which includes reading the blackberry. I think 12 hours is too much.

But I also think that 9 hours is too little. I would like to see ten. One hour for commute hotel to airport. One hour for Meals and a shower and 8 hours for sleep.

Personally, I'd like to see rest equal to or greater than an adjacent duty period but I think ten hours should be the absolute minimum.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6525 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Link? I'd be curious to see it.

Has anything been done with the maximum hours per year?

It was posted on a friends Facebook account so I can't provide the link. It showed nothing about hours per year. However, it did show the maximum number of flying hours, and the exact maximum is based on two things. How many flight segments you are operating, and what time your show at the airport to start the day is. If you start a duty day later in the day, then you are allowed even fewer hours than you would if you start in the morning.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12888 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6176 times:
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Quoting silentbob (Reply 17):
I'd like to see rest equal to or greater than an adjacent duty period but I think ten hours should be the absolute minimum.

I wouldn't argue against that.

I'm big on efficiency, but I've worked horrid hours and have been thankful for our rest rules. Seriously, I expected to be on the other side of this argument... To say the least, I'm amused...

Quoting apodino (Reply 18):
If you start a duty day later in the day, then you are allowed even fewer hours than you would if you start in the morning.

Interesting and reasonable. I'd like to know the annual cap too.

If anyone gets links to the charts (and it is appropriate), please share.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 845 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6104 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
But I also think that 9 hours is too little. I would like to see ten. One hour for commute hotel to airport. One hour for Meals and a shower and 8 hours for sleep.

I've only been through the proposal once, but I believe it reads that rest starts at the hotel. In other words, the F.A.A. recognizes that time in the hotel van/bus is not rest.

I believe a couple of major U.S. airlines already practice this.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

I'll take it one step further and say they need to throw something in there about days off. Fatigue is cumulative and more difficult to combat in a hotel room. Especially the cheap hotels regionals favor.

User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2051 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5433 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
I'm big on efficiency, but I've worked horrid hours and have been thankful for our rest rules. Seriously, I expected to be on the other side of this argument... To say the least, I'm amused...

I always say that when I'm at work, I want to get paid. I don't mind a 12 hour day if I'm getting paid for most of it. The problem comes in when it's 4 hours of pay for a 12 hour day. I just want to rack up my hours as quickly as I can so I can have more time away from it all.


User currently offlineCBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Has anything been done with the maximum hours per year?

Believe it is the same, 1000 hrs a year! While this is good news for all of us 121 pilots out their, you better believe that most of the efficiency in our trips will be gone. But non the less, it is a good start, and I am happy that the FAA has been serious and committed to do the research into this subject!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2682 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5276 times:

I don't have time to type all of my thoughts at this time but I have read through a lot of this PDF today and I think the new proposal is 30% effective and 70% total failure.

The entire thing is also way too complicated.

[Edited 2010-09-10 21:42:06]

25 ckfred : Here's a point about reducing duty time from 16 to 13 hours, while increasing flying time from 8 to 10 hours. A friend of mine is a pilot for a major
26 B777LRF : Interesting that the NPRM does not address the crash-pad lifestyle of some US regional pilots, neither commuting for umpteen hours before starting dut
27 apodino : I don't think so. First of all, the block time on those three flights combined would be close to 10 hours and no airline is going to cut it that clos
28 B777LRF : Same way consumption of alcohol is forbidden, which much the same penalties. After all, being fatigued and being under the influence have pretty much
29 silentbob : Eliminate commuting by air and you will see a marked increase in people driving 2, 3, 4, or more hours to work. I don't see how that could be any safe
30 GoBoeing : Not sure where you get that idea but it is not correct. Those that live within that driving distance mostly all drive already because door to door, i
31 jetdudetim : The FAA can't regulate the personal choice of a pilot. If a pilot chooses to commute (it is always a choice) they need to be responsible for their ow
32 MSJYOP28Apilot : I wonder what the ratio has been in the past 10-20 years of pilots who have commuted vs lived in base in major accidents particularly those attribute
33 2175301 : A simpler solution that would still allow commuting, but probably not add excessive accumulated fatigue would be to restrict the number of connections
34 Mir : That still wouldn't have helped the FO on CO3407 - there are several direct flights from SEA to EWR (even more to the NYC area). I don't mind banning
35 Post contains images lightsaber : Really? Please, that is a serious question. If rest time starts at the hotel, The FAA regulates hours for safety, not for 'pay fairness.' So while th
36 DashTrash : Airlines like doing that so they get "free" reserve coverage out of the sitting pilot. If a flight not on your trip needs a pilot while you're sittin
37 CBPhoto : I can tell all of you right now, if commuting was outlawed, the airline industry would come a stand still. There is a good percentage of pilots and f
38 B777LRF : They most certainly can, just like the consumption of alcohol and drugs (personal choices) are regulated.
39 cslusarc : I am intrigued by the airline industry including its role in reducing fatigue and the connection between pilot pay at regional airlines and fatigue. W
40 Alias1024 : Reserve rules are still a joke. They note that reserve is more fatiguing because of varied and unexpected schedule changes, causing an inability to pl
41 Mir : That should bug everybody. -Mir
42 DiamondFlyer : It does bug everyone, until they realize that their ticket prices have to go up to fix that problem, and then they don't care again. -DiamondFlyer[Ed
43 DashTrash : Any EWR hotel that only cost $50 a night isn't the kind of a place you'd get any rest. It would be a nasty roach motel. The fact that ass gasket even
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