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Pilot Arrested At AMS Because Of Alcohol  
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1838 posts, RR: 42
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19706 times:
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Just read about this on a Dutch site (sorry, no English) The story says the pilot of an (not specified) American airline was removed from the cockpit because his blood/alcohol level was too high. Apparently the USA bound flight got cxd.

http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2333593/piloot-opgepakt-schiphol.html

Anybody know which airline this was?


Fly DC-Jets!
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAJO From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19641 times:

From delta.com, it appears flight 35 (AMS-EWR) has been cancelled today, so this one would be my best guess...

[Edited 2010-09-14 10:23:02]


Ryanair: never again!
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 19363 times:

And it's reported that the pilot lives in New Jersey.

"Dutch police say they have arrested and fined an intoxicated American pilot who was preparing to take off with a passenger jet."

"The National Police Corps has not identified the pilot or his airline, but says he is a 52-year-old captain from Woodbury, New Jersey. He does not fly for a Dutch airline, according to a police statement published Tuesday."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=11634964


User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 19278 times:

Cue the - he deserves what he gets / poor him for having an alcohol problem brigade.

I'm a firm member of the former. If he is proved to have attempted to fly above the limit, he deserves never to fly again.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7369 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 19100 times:

De uitslag van de ademanalyse bedroeg 105 ug/l (0,23 promille), terwijl in de luchtvaart maximaal 90 ug/l (0,2 promille) is toegestaan. Gedurende tien uur voorafgaand aan de vlucht mag er door vliegtuigpersoneel geen alcohol worden genuttigd, aldus het KLPD. De man kreeg een boete van 700 euro en hij heeft die direct betaald.

I do not speak Dutch, but my guess is that the limit is 90 and he had 105.

My first reaction is that this is pretty close, but we do not know when he last drank, it was probably well over at that point.

My second reaction is that this is plain dumb. I believe that you can buy Breathalysers. It would have been a shrewd investment. If he had been over when he got to AMS, he could have called in sick and he would have been in the clear.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 19047 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 4):
I do not speak Dutch, but my guess is that the limit is 90 and he had 105.

Correct! He also got a EUR 700 fine and payed it immediately. The article says that flight personnel are not allowed to consume alcohol for 10 hours before the flight.



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User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12202 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 18939 times:
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Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 4):
I do not speak Dutch, but my guess is that the limit is 90 and he had 105.

Or in terms more familiar to Americans. He was a 0.023, with the limit being 0.02. Limit for driving a car in all 50 states is 0.08



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7369 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 18916 times:

http://www.breathalyserdirect.co.uk/al2500.htm

Seems cheap if it saves your job.

Sorry about the plug, I input Breathalyser into www.ask.co.uk and picked the first link.

There were plenty of others.


User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2922 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 18446 times:

If the person who provided the tip was a pax on the flight, I presume he/she would have been removed for questioning the captain's mojo if he had tested 0.19.   


Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 18397 times:

I am not a person who feels you should lose your career for one mistake but when it comes to pilots flying commercially you can't do this. You can't go near alcohol before you fly. Simple. Shame some can't grasp this.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4643 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 18311 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
Or in terms more familiar to Americans. He was a 0.023, with the limit being 0.02. Limit for driving a car in all 50 states is 0.08

Legal limit to fly is .04, so the pilot was legal to fly the plane



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21423 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 18248 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
I am not a person who feels you should lose your career for one mistake but when it comes to pilots flying commercially you can't do this. You can't go near alcohol before you fly. Simple. Shame some can't grasp this.

Normally I'd agree, but he was just barely over the limit, and it's possible he didn't realize it. If he complied with all the other alcohol regulations and airline policies, and wasn't visibly intoxicated, I'd be inclined to let him fly again after a mandatory alcohol program.

It's those who don't follow the rules/policies, or fly when they know they're not completely sober, that I have no tolerance for.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 18106 times:
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Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 10):
Legal limit to fly is .04, so the pilot was legal to fly the plane

Where did you get your information regarding the legal limit ? According to the article quoted the limit appears to be 90 in the Netherlands and , since that is where he was attempting to fly from and he recorded 105 it appears that he was not legal to fly the plane .

De uitslag van de ademanalyse bedroeg 105 ug/l (0,23 promille), terwijl in de luchtvaart maximaal 90 ug/l (0,2 promille) is toegestaan.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4643 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 18080 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 12):
Where did you get your information regarding the legal limit ?

Thats the FAA legal limit, I dont know the flying requirement set by the EU or other applicable authorities.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 17989 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
Thats the FAA legal limit, I dont know the flying requirement set by the EU or other applicable authorities.

What has the FAA limit got to do with someone flying from AMS?


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 17957 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
Anybody know which airline this was?

Delta.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 17826 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 2):
And it's reported that the pilot lives in New Jersey.

So he's an Delta NYC based pilot doing the EWR-AMS-EWR run?



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 17809 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
was removed from the cockpit because his blood/alcohol level was too high.

Is it normal procedure to cancel a flight because of an incident like this? It just seems that unless you have a full complement of flight crew, the flight is a no-go. Do any airlines have contract pilots on standby at non-base airport?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4877 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 17466 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 14):
What has the FAA limit got to do with someone flying from AMS?



This is the big dilemma when this question arises.

That Delta flight was being flown to, and conformed with FARs. That is ... US law ... not Dutch law. All international flights are flown that way. They conform to the law of the registration on the side of the ship ... not the flag at the airport at which you are arriving.

When bilateral agreements are in place, and new flights from new countries are flying to your country. The governmental bodies ensure that the Air Regulations of both countries are acceptable to both countries. It is a courtesy extended. Naturally, as long as laws are close and reasonable, they are accepted by both sides.

So (for example) ... the fuel required on that Delta flight complied with FAA requirements ... the crew duty times, the maintenance intervals, the Weight and Balance system, the size of the registration on the side of the ship ... etc. etc. etc. ...all complied with FAA requirements ... NOT Dutch requirements.

The same thing happens with KLM when they fly to the US. They comply with Dutch Air Regulations, not US Air Regulations. It has already been agreed by both countries that the two sets of laws, being close enough, is acceptable.

So why is it when an Air Crew Member's alcohol limit is above the host country's limit .. does everyone gasp in horror? Especially when, (in this case) it still complies with FAA law. It is like being upset because Delta used 100K per passenger for Weight and Balance, when Dutch law requires something different. It ... like the alcohol limit ... will have no effect on safety, as long as it complies with FAA rules.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 16990 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
When bilateral agreements are in place, and new flights from new countries are flying to your country. The governmental bodies ensure that the Air Regulations of both countries are acceptable to both countries. It is a courtesy extended. Naturally, as long as laws are close and reasonable, they are accepted by both sides

I didn't knew that (not that I know much of this topic). If true, he might keep his job.



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineheysfo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 16852 times:

Legal limit for pilot in US is .004....At that point the pilot is side lined till he test below .002 . Basically he was hung over . Legally drunk is .008 driving a car in the USA...He tested .0023

User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 16486 times:

Perhaps someone can point me in the right direction, but I have yet to read where it says the flight was going to EWR. All I have seen regarding New Jersey is that the pilot lives there. That, by itself, does not by correlate into the flight going to New Jersey.


A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 16416 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 21):
times:AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR


Perhaps someone can point me in the right direction, but I have yet to read where it says the flight was going to EWR.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...nfit-crew-member-in-amsterdam.html

...Delta Air Lines Inc. said it canceled a flight from Amsterdam to Newark, New Jersey, because of concern that a crew member was “unfit for duty.”

Flight 35 was scrubbed, the crew member was suspended and passengers will be rebooked on an extra plane tomorrow, Anthony Black, a Delta spokesman, said today in an e-mail....



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 16245 times:

I want the people flying my commercial flight to be dead sober, 0.00 ml/%, no 'hangover and fully rested. Unless the machine was out of wack or the test was improperly done, this guy consumed too much alcohol, too late before the cut off. Let us also recognize that a hangover, even if sober by the numbers, means you didn't get enough quality sleep. Drinking heavily before sleeping can affect it as well as affect critical judgement when driving and especially flying after your sleep time. By getting caught, he is costing his airline probably $200-300,000 in revenue as well as a hit on thier reputation.

I do hope a proper investigation is done, see if he has a pattern of heavy drinking especially close the the 10 hour cut off before flying, has a problem with alcohol consumption or if this was just a 1 time error. Even if is a 1 time error or is a pattern, he need to be suspended until he goes to counsuling and if needs more extensive counsuling or rehab, then continue the suspension, which I suspect is the policy of the airline.


User currently offlinevv701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 17 hours ago) and read 16096 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
That Delta flight was being flown to, and conformed with FARs. That is ... US law ... not Dutch law. All international flights are flown that way. They conform to the law of the registration on the side of the ship ... not the flag at the airport at which you are arriving.

When bilateral agreements are in place, and new flights from new countries are flying to your country. The governmental bodies ensure that the Air Regulations of both countries are acceptable to both countries. It is a courtesy extended. Naturally, as long as laws are close and reasonable, they are accepted by both sides.

So (for example) ... the fuel required on that Delta flight complied with FAA requirements ... the crew duty times, the maintenance intervals, the Weight and Balance system, the size of the registration on the side of the ship ... etc. etc. etc. ...all complied with FAA requirements ... NOT Dutch requirements.

Does this apply to both laws and to regulations?

Let me give two examples. It is illegal to pilot an aircraft or drive a car with a blood alcohol level above certain defined limits. Breaking this or any other law is almost certainly going to result in a prosecution whether, as in this case, the blood-alcohol level was only a little above as well as when it was significantly above the legal limit. However breaking a regulation - such as crew duty times - is unlikely to result in a prosecution if it is clearly an isolated occurrence AND the infringement is relatively minor.

I would have thought, perhaps wrongly, that where laws are concerned local laws apply. But I can understand that where regulations are concerned those of the country of the airline's or crew's domicile would apply.

Is there such a difference? It just seems illogical to me that it is possible for a pilot of an American airline and a pilot of a German airline flying out of Schipol to have exactly the same blood-alcohol concentration but that that concentration could be "legal" for the American pilot but "illegal" for the German pilot.


25 aviateur : The Federal Aviation Administration blood alcohol limit for airline pilots is .04 percent, and we are banned from consuming alcohol within eight hours
26 kalvado : I assume you wouldn't board a plane knowing guys in a front office are above 0.0000%? Too bad you will never see the Earth from above! Ethanol is a p
27 ZBBYLW : I am surprised how lax these rules are. In Canada, it is 8 hours for any drink, 24 for excessive and most companies have their own rule... Mine is 12
28 STT757 : Should of gone to the coffee shop instead of the bar.
29 radarbeam : So what 0.02% represents anyway? On the roads here in Quebec the limit is 0.08% and it is said that with 2 beers you are close to the limit. So this g
30 NIKV69 : Being a commercial pilot this is MORE than fair. Give me a break. You can't comply?
31 Post contains images KingFriday013 : The flight was going to Newark it seems. What he did was wrong... but I understand how he feels, I wouldn't want to go either! -J.
32 Post contains images ManuCH : I guess there are some exceptions to this. Like having the passengers to sit down a certain amount of time before entering US airspace, regardless of
33 Quokka : So why was the pilot arrested, charged and fined? Please can you point to an appropriate law that exempts pilots from local laws just because they ar
34 MH017 : The airline was Delta, flightnumber DL0035 and registration was N176DN... So, conform the US law, as stated...
35 Post contains images deltal1011man : maybe but he could have been from other 7ER bases depending on how his route was worked. hey now he could have hit the coffee shop.....and put a shot
36 cuban8 : According to JAR-OPS (EU-OPS), the limit is .02, that's I think about 1 glass of wine. As far as I know, the limit is 8 hours before flight. Most com
37 jpiddink : And if we take that equation one step further, would anyone honestly believe a statement that car drivers were subject to the laws (alcohol limits) o
38 Woof : Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of it. However you do state the the laws of the 'home' country are used if they are close enough to that of the '
39 Kaiarahi : Exactly. Just because European countries accept each others vehicle inspection/licensing systems doesn't mean someone can drive blind drunk in German
40 thrufru : Our licenses are issued by and as such governed by the FAA, not the JAA. I encountered this same type of FAA/JAA head butting in the Canary Islands t
41 Woof : So maybe this pilot should only be banned from flying in EU airspace rather than US or anywhere else? In all seriousness, does someone have a link to
42 Post contains links Quokka : Are these the FAA rules that are being discussed? § 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in a foreign country. Each certificate holder shall, while
43 jpiddink : Nearly correct, it says: " follow the rules of the foreign country AND follow these rules to the extent that they do not violate the rules of the for
44 dispatchguy : My GUESS and giving him the benefit of the doubt, is that he felt that under FARs, he was fit to fly, as his BAC was below the limit under US FARs, an
45 Quokka : Thanks for that. The point being that some posters appear to believe that because the aircraft was registered in the USA that the pilot was subject t
46 NZ8800 : While a carrier flies under the aviation regulations of the country it is registered in, that does not mean that the country that its aeroplane(s) are
47 Post contains images fxramper : The FAA cracked down back in December on first time offenders. Minimum will be 6-8 months and a rehab stay if this guy wants his job back. Disgusting
48 Woof : Indeed. One poster said that you would be OK to follow the FAA rules even if they were more lax than the rules pertaining to your current location. T
49 WildcatYXU : Now, that's a good remark LTBEWR. Thank you for posting that. Almost every poster is very fast to jugde the pilot and somehow discounting the possibi
50 markboston : How many hours does Delta require pilots to abstain from alcohol before a flight?
51 ThrottleHold : I'd much rather fly with a hungover pilot than a fatigued one.
52 asterix : I don't know much about limits, nor am I an expert on the legal issues. But here is one thought : inside the USA, US airlines conform to FAA rules. Th
53 migair54 : You can say whatever you want but if you are in AMS you must follow the JAA limitations...... and a JAA pilot in USA must follow the FAA rules..... If
54 trigged : Another question: Since marijuana is legal in Amsterdam, what are the limits on pilots? Would the pilot have been arrested if he had smoked pot before
55 727forever : 8 hours and 0.00% BAC. Caution must be used as someone else said earlier, when you get down to these low levels the machines can and often do give fa
56 Post contains images Koosi : My thoughts exactly! Was this a breathalyzer test? Umm, you sure about that? This is Amsterdam we're talking about.
57 cokepopper : Not to defend him, but wouldn't metabolism be a factor? After all many pilots are sedentary. He could have stopped at 15 hrs however his body didn't m
58 vv701 : It could be a factor but surely it is not a valid excuse. Most airlines set their own limits for pilots reporting for duty on both the elapsed time s
59 burnsie28 : That person would indeed be dead then, you can easily blow a .023 just by taking listerine or some other mouthwash.
60 Woof : Your blood alcohol level would not read such unless you actually drank the mouthwash. Every pilot I know is aware of the possible affects of alcohol
61 Kappel : Strictly speaking it's not legal. However, the penalty on the use is not enforced if the marijuana is used in the coffeeshop. You are definitely not
62 ediCHC : This is irrelevant as a defence. If for some reason a person's metabolism means it take longer for the body to break down the alcohol and excrete it'
63 AirNZ : Absolutely incorrect, and completely misleading. Could you perhaps explain how taking mouthwash would give a level of 0.023 in the person's blood? In
64 jpiddink : Just for clarification: given the amount of alcohol tests that are conducted in the Amsterdam region on a daily basis, I would assume that the local
65 Burkhard : Given that FAA allow .004, NL allows .002, and he had .0023, the 700€ fine is OK, and he should loose a year or two in seniority due to the damege h
66 Rabenschlag : I am quite shocked by the fact that FAA allows .004 BAC. In Germany, the limit for driving a car is .005. And if something happens even below this li
67 KL1291 : Kappel is right, strictly speaking it's not legal, only in certain amounts and used in the coffeeshop. But! Since there is still no legally approved
68 Woof : Listening to old Boney M records while muttering "chill man" and raising the index an second fingers of each hand with palms forward is also a good i
69 WildcatYXU : It obviously doesn't. However, the breathalyser doesn't measure BAC either. It measures ethanol vapour content in the person's breath. So a false pos
70 burnsie28 : From what I understand was that it was just a breathalizer test thus entirely possible.
71 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Not in the Netherlands, he shouldn´t The Dutch have a specialised aviation police (real cops with guns and uniforms) specialised in air legislation
72 Kappel : Yes, unfortunately there are many double standards in Dutch drug policy. The public? IMHO they don't have to know anything. The pilot and the airline
73 WildcatYXU : So? So they can order the instrument error become zero and it will obey the order and become zero? I don't think so... Look Jan, this is not about wo
74 FlyDeltaJets87 : Jay Leno was talking about this. He said the pilot is now going to AA - No, not "Alcoholic Anonymous", but "American Airlines".
75 MD11Engineer : That´s why here in Germany the breathalyzer is not recognised as evidence in court, but is considered to be just a field test to give the cops a rea
76 CBPhoto : I am sure I will get heat for this statement, but go become an airline pilot! Then..and ONLY then you can make assumptions like this. While I 100% ag
77 LTBEWR : Here is a question: what legal rights does this pilot have in The Netherlands, to access to a court to challange the charges including as to the Breat
78 Kappel : By paying he indeed accepted his guilt. In the Netherlands it's the same. If you don't agree with the fine, you can appeal and have your case heard i
79 longhauler : Using the automobile analogy above, you have to understand that the Air Regulations encompass all facets of the operations. Both inside the vehicle an
80 imatams : I could follow your analogy up to a point, but in the end what you're saying is that in your opinion, when your Canadian driver is breathalized on an
81 Woof : According to the following text, which has been quoted a few times above, there is nothing grey at all: "§ 121.11 Rules applicable to operations in
82 Post contains images Kaiarahi : When I'm driving in New Zealand, it's New Zealand alcohol limits that apply, not Canadian limits, even though I'm licensed in Ontario and New Zealand
83 markboston : In an earlier post it was noted that Delta requires pilots to have 0% BAC. By paying the fine he's not disputing the .023 reading which violates his
84 AR385 : Wasn´t this addressed when that BA 744 lost an engine on take-off at LAX and flew all the way to the UK on three engines? I thought the FAA and the
85 longhauler : This is where the grey area occurs when using the automobile analogy, and why it doesn't work well. Alcohol falls under driving rules not licencing r
86 GerbenYYZ : Alcohol is the thing that keeps you going?? Please tell me that I'm taking this comment the wrong way, because if you need alcohol to keep you going,
87 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : Why? Members of the military deployed often can't have alcohol for months at a time, and I'm sure those in a combat zone face greater stress levels t
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