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American Airlines 720B On Trans-con?  
User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 665 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 8464 times:

Did AA operate their 720Bs on transcontinental flights? If so, I assume they were fitted with the "AstroVision" entertainment product?

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6749 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

2/66 OAG shows 720B on flight 1 JFK-LAX and flight 9 EWR-LAX.

User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

Yeah..they did and Western flew em from the west coast to Hawaii.
You can add NW IAD-SEA....NS.
source Western & NW scheds and older OAG's.

The B models had a little more range than the basic 720's......a little, mind you.
I can't find a UA 720 coast to coast without a stop or two.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2429 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7709 times:
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It was not unusual to find 720B's in coast to coast use, especially since AA had such a large 707/720 fleet to draw upon.

UA did do coast to coast with their 720's----although always with a stop at ORD if not more.

NW used to run a dinner flight out of IDL (JFK) to SEA non-stop, then on to PDX. There was also a red-eye non-stop SEA-IDL. All with 720B's. The NW 720B's were also used SEA/PDX-HNL and return. Early on, when the 720B's first came on-line, it was not unusual to see one do SEA-ANC-TYO and back either as there were just not enough -8's and the -320B's couldn't be delivered fast enough as far as NW was concerned.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7561 times:

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 2):
The B models had a little more range than the basic 720's......a little, mind you..

More than a little. Boeing payload- range charts in their website show the 720B having roughly 20% more range than the 720 (with equivalent payload).

The turbofan JT3D-powered 720B made it the hotrod of Boeing types in those years. The turbojet JT3C-powered 720 like UA's and EA's always seemed underpowered in comparison.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 2):
I can't find a UA 720 coast to coast without a stop or two.

August 1963 UA timetable shows one LAX-JFK (then IDL) 720 nonstop (a redeye flight) That's the only coast-to-coast 720 nonstop in that timetable. There's no equivalent westbound flight. Otherwise, the longest UA 720 nonstops then were:

CLE-LAX - 1,783 nm (once daily, both directions)
DTW-LAX - 1,719 nm (once daily, both directions)


User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7537 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 1):
2/66 OAG shows 720B on flight 1 JFK-LAX and flight 9 EWR-LAX.

I'm sorry, but where do you find this information?



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6749 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

Once you have the OAG, you mean? It says the flights are "B2F", which was their code for 720B. Nobody knows how reliable that info was.

User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7449 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 6):
Once you have the OAG, you mean?

No, I mean what is OAG, and how can I use or get it?



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Quoting c5load (Reply 7):
No, I mean what is OAG, and how can I use or get it?


O official
A airline
G guide....
It's a book with all airlines scheds, equipment class of service, times and the old ones like I collect have the prices.
Im pretty sure they have a website.
American Express Company publishes a similar book called Flight Guide. Its a little cheaper than the OAG.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7337 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):

Yep....in also in the July 63 book....UA 706
LV LAX 10 30p
AR ILD 6 35a
how bout that!

Quoting timz (Reply 1):
2/66 OAG shows 720B on flight 1 JFK-LAX and flight 9 EWR-LAX.

Interesting....The March 1966 AA sched shows AA flight one as a 707. HOWEVER by now(1966), AA was listing their 707's and 720B's as........707 in their scheds.
Nowhere in this sched could I find a 720B. A few years earlier AA listed both planes.
safe
you know folks, I just found ANOTHER box of old scheds.
I need to unload this stuff....your truly is running of birthdays(thats getting old to KARL737).
LOL...



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

NW also operated the 720B JFK-SEA nonstop in the 1960s. I think that was NW's only route before deregulation where they had nonstop coast-to-coast traffic rights (apart from JFK-ANC as part of the Transpacific service).

User currently offlinebdl2stl2pvg From China, joined Jun 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

AA would use 720s on their BDL/LAX/BDL routes. They would vary them, actually from one day to the next. As I understand, this route was often very light and they would use the 720Bs. There were times of the year that having a dozen pax was kind of common. I am quite certain that they ran one as late as July of 1970 on the route.

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1285 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6968 times:

Don't think range would have been an issue, weather permitting of course, for a 720B on transcon. Conair used to fly 720Bs in 179Y config, packed to the gills with 2-week charter guests, on CPH-BJL non-stop, and that's almost 2900NM great circle, with a flight time of around 7 hours if memory serves me right. Was always an intersting sight seeing that one go off - they sure did use all the runway they'd paid for.

On the homebound leg they quite often had to stop for fuel due t/o performance restrictions.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2205 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6832 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
NW also operated the 720B JFK-SEA nonstop in the 1960s. I think that was NW's only route before deregulation where they had nonstop coast-to-coast traffic rights (apart from JFK-ANC as part of the Transpacific service).

NW also flew IAD-SEA nonstops before deregulation. This was one of NW's last 707 routes.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2429 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6712 times:
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EI began jet service with new 720's. First crossing on December 14, 1960 from DUB to IDL via SNN. Despite the tight range limitations, especially west-bound in the winter, the three 720's served them well. I'm sure they were no stanger to Gander.
707's came online in '64 and were much more suited to the trans-atlantic route.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6749 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
August 1963 UA timetable shows one LAX-JFK (then IDL) 720 nonstop (a redeye flight)

8/63 Timetable OAG (schedules eff 5 Aug) doesn't show that-- instead it shows an SFO-IDL nonstop redeye 720.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6667 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
August 1963 UA timetable shows one LAX-JFK (then IDL) 720 nonstop (a redeye flight)

8/63 Timetable OAG (schedules eff 5 Aug) doesn't show that-- instead it shows an SFO-IDL nonstop redeye 720.

That's correct. My reference to LAX-IDL should have read SFO-IDL (flight number UA706).


User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 848 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6615 times:

I was reading over the Braniffpages.com site. In the Chuck Beard years is a commentary about the purchase of the 720. However it does not state what routes BN used them on. I seem to recall reading about BN using them on some of the South American routes, until the merger with PANAGRA. But that either the 707s or 720s were considered underpowed?
JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6749 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

Quoting c5load (Reply 7):
I mean what is OAG, and how can I use or get it?

Starting 1868 or so, the Official Guide of the Railways came out each month, listing nearly all the passenger schedules on the continent. The Official Guide of the Airways came out every month starting in 1929, listing most North American schedules and some international. Travel agents needed them in order to route passengers and sell them the right tickets-- they (the agents) couldn't very well have current timetables for each airline in the world. A fat one will be 5+ cm thick.

No idea how easy it is to find them at airline shows, but eBay has them: 1940s, 1950s appear now and then, 1960s seem to be rarer, 1970s now and then...


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6559 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 17):
I seem to recall reading about BN using them on some of the South American routes, until the merger with PANAGRA. But that either the 707s or 720s were considered underpowed?

Braniff's standard turbojet 720s would have been unsuitable for most of their South America destinations, many of which were hot or high or both. On the other hand, the turbofan 720B (which BN didn't operate) had excellent hot and high performance and was used for years by Avianca which served several high-elevation airports in Latin America (their BOG home base is 8,361 ft. above sea level).

Pan Am also used their 9 720Bs (acquiired used from LH and AA) for several years on their Latin America and Caribbean routes where the 720B's performance was ideal.

Braniff did operate 4 short-fuselage 707-138Bs from 1969 to 1975 (purchased from Qantas). They would have had significantly better performance than their 720s although not quite as good as the 720B due to the higher structural weight.


User currently offline113312 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6525 times:

My recollection is that American Airlines used the B720B almost interchangably with the 707-123B on domestic routes. In fact, they said 707 Astrojet on their side.

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2429 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6448 times:
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Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 17):
either the 707s or 720s were considered underpowed?

Well BN's original 707-220's were not underpowered!

[Edited 2010-09-18 19:10:19]


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2205 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6321 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 18):
No idea how easy it is to find them at airline shows, but eBay has them: 1940s, 1950s appear now and then, 1960s seem to be rarer, 1970s now and then...

At last month's Airliners International convention in EWR, David Keller had lots of old OAGs from the 1950s onward for sale. They weren't cheap (he sold a 1964 OAG for $200), but if you want an old OAG, he would probably be your best source.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6179 times:

Quoting 113312 (Reply 20):
My recollection is that American Airlines used the B720B almost interchangably with the 707-123B on domestic routes.

As a sidenote, an AA 720B (N7528A) was their first aircraft to wear their new (and still current) livery in 1968.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1072 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

I didn't see it mentioned, but Western flew 720Bs on the LAX-MIA route started around 1976.

25 packcheer : When did AA retire their 707's?
26 isitsafenow : Gee, guy...I think I can make enough selling ALL mine for a F class R.T. to Rarotonga PLUS accommodations....., my dream vacation. Thanks for the tip
27 ImperialEagle : I'm thinking 1980ish.
28 maxpower1954 : Pretty close - September 1981, IIRC.
29 milesrich : And it lasted no more than one month. The September 9, 1963 UA timetable shows flight 806 and was operated with a DC-8 Dp SFO at 1030pm and arriving
30 JFKPurser : I remember flying a United 720 from LAX to SFO in 1972 -- I think this was the last year they operated the type. I flew AA often during the period whe
31 milesrich : American didn't operate both types for very long. I believe they received either 10 or 15 JT-3C powered 720-023's that were converted to JT-3D Fan po
32 The777Man : Very interesting information ! When did AA park their 720s ? The777Man
33 ImperialEagle : I think 1976ish.
34 isitsafenow : That would be Braniff Flight #51 or #37. Somes a 707, sometimes a 720. Time frame 1966-1967. I have 1961 and 1962 AA scheds along with OAG/s from tha
35 milesrich : The original 707-123's and 720-023's were called 707 Jet Flagships, and 720 Jet Flagships. With the introduction of the fan jet, they fan powered jet
36 timz : Just to clarify-- you're saying AA didn't do the 720-to-720B conversion-- they let Boeing do it instead? No more than a month after that, you mean. As
37 Viscount724 : AA took delivery of 10 720s in 1960 (later converted to 720B) and 15 720Bs in 1961.
38 isitsafenow : Yes...thank you the clarification from both you guys. Now..here's what I found The first AA ASTROJETS was put in service MARCH 12 1961. They were two
39 JFKPurser : Yes -- what I meant by both types was 707 and 720B, not 720 and 720B. The 720B was operated by AA until about 1974 when the last ones were sold off.
40 toptravel : I flew from SFO/JFK on a TWA 720, way back in the late 60's or early 70's
41 ImperialEagle : I did a bit of investigating. N7529A was sold 05/07/76 N7545A was sold 05/23/76 N7530A was sold 05/09/77 N7526A was sold 07/12/78 Some of these aircr
42 Post contains images isitsafenow : Nope......the TW 720B's were in service from summer of 1961 to Sept and Oct of 1962. They went back to Boeing, then over to Northwest UNTIL 1968. TW
43 milesrich : As I remember, there were only four of them leased to TWA before they received their 707-131B's. Northwest must have agreed to the lease because they
44 Post contains links Tango-Bravo : Interesting...perhaps an indication that eastbound transcon non-stop was "pushing the envelope" of the turbojet- (non-fan) powered 720's range... whe
45 ImperialEagle : Correct. NW's finances were very tight too, during this time period so the lease worked out well for everybody. NW had just had TWO disasterous and h
46 Viscount724 : I would question that. The first 720B wasn't delivered until February 1961. By then, Boeing had delivered 60 707-320s and 24 -420s,and Douglas had de
47 isitsafenow : If it had a prop, the 7C was the champ in this category. Its speed wasn't so slow either. safe
48 ImperialEagle : Now Safe, I'm not trying to be dissagreeable, however the max. fuel range for a -7C is 5640. The max fuel range for a 1649 is6180. As stated the -7C
49 maxpower1954 : I believe TWA still holds the record for longest scheduled block to block - 23 hours 19 minutes, London to San Francisco using the L-1649. Started in
50 Tango-Bravo : It is interesting to note (in the book Boeing 707 & 720, by George W. Cerarley, Jr.) that the first route for Pan Am's "Intercontinental" turboje
51 Post contains images isitsafenow : Is that a fact? And here all this time(since the late 50's) I thought the 7C could outdistance the big connie. Well, sonofagun...ya learn something n
52 Tango-Bravo : While in service with TWA, the (4) 720Bs leased from Boeing were used on at least one non-stop transcon route (in their August 29, 1962 timetable)...
53 isitsafenow : There were four 720B at TW. Tango-Bravo...when I get home tonight, Ill shoot you a private about a TWA sched misprint about the same time period you m
54 milesrich : Nyrop was too late on trying to trade the 7C's for jets. AA traded in 25 of their original 7's for 707's, and United traded in quite a few of their 7
55 milesrich : Many of the 720-023B's were first leased, and then sold to Middle Eastern carriers, and a number of them were destroyed at Beirut by the IDF, once in
56 milesrich : Neither airplane was all that fast on these long range flights. While DC-7's were flown at their 365 MPH crusing speed on coast to coast domestic fli
57 isitsafenow : In terms of piston airliners with range, they were the fastest. The 7C out distanced the DC7 and 7B models. Also,different power ment a faster plane.
58 Viscount724 : And Canadian Pacific was second on YVR-AMS in 1955, a year after SAS. CP also made a fuel stop initially, usually at SFJ, until DC-8s arrived in 1961
59 Post contains links milesrich : http://propspistonsandoldairliners.b...ckheed-l-1649-vs-douglas-dc-7.html Safe, I suggest you read this 55 year old article about the cruising speed o
60 ImperialEagle : Yes, but they were needed untill the long-range version of the 8's was available to be delivered to them, and then Douglas didn't want them back anyw
61 Tango-Bravo : In Northwest's 1960-61 timetables, all DC-8 flights between SEA and Tokyo were routed via ANC, in both directions, whereas all non-stop flights, also
62 WA707atMSP : American's 1970 annual report says that they had 19 720s in service as of Dec 31, 1970. Their 1972 annual report shows none in service, but eight "fo
63 milesrich : In 1963, there were no nonstop flights between Seattle and Tokyo, all flights were via Anchorage. Did the 707-320B have the legs for that flight on a
64 ImperialEagle : Douglas could not meet the range guarantees with the 8's. They ended up with a lot of unexpexted drag when the a/c was ops in a max range mode. Well
65 isitsafenow : Miles....your post 59.... If that's true, why did the 7C outsell the L1649 connie by a substantial margin? If the 7C was the dog you tell is it is, wh
66 WesternA318 : They were also heavily used on the SLC and LAX to MSP routes as well..
67 Viscount724 : The fact that the DC-7C went into service a year before the L-1649A was no doubt a big factor. The 1649A was just too late considering the imminent a
68 isitsafenow : Viscount724[/quote] Thank you for that info. I may be runnin out of birthdays, but I still seek knowledge, especially in "my" era, the 50's and 60's.
69 Viscount724 : I recently re-read an interesting 1999 autobiography written by a retired BA captain, one of their few pilots who flew the original ill-fated Comet 1
70 timz : Yeah, the westward nonstop probably didn't start until they got -321Bs; in 3/61 they had a weekly nonstop eastward only. (When PA started flying 707s
71 cf6ppe : In the late '60's, my family and I watched the evening departing NW flight (SEA -> TYO) many times from the SEA terminal dining room. A cheap Satu
72 milesrich : The 7C was out a year before the 1649. Airlines that operated Douglas airplanes were not interested in buying a more complicated airplane from Lockhe
73 ImperialEagle : And another big part of the story was the Douglas product was a slightly more modern design (after all, the Connie was really late 1930's technology)
74 milesrich : Which is exactly my point, it was a "brave new world" in the airline business. In 1955, the Comet disaster was just year ago, and while the Dash-80 P
75 isitsafenow : MILES....you forgot something about the C-54 and DC4...they did not have reversible props and the six did. I know Capitals did not nor did TW's. safe
76 ImperialEagle : O.k. you are entitled to disagree. Another point of our disagreement would be the C-54/DC-4. This airplane was not intended to be a competitor to the
77 milesrich : I am aware of that, but that is because they had completely different power plants. DC-4's did not have reversible props, but that had to do with lan
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