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Willie Walsh : Threat From Middle East Carriers  
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13878 times:

Interesting article in the Financial Times yesterday about a speech Willie Walsh made in his role as Chair of the Association of European Airlines.

He warns of the significant threat from Middle Eastern carriers such as Emirates, Etihad and Qatar, and says Europe has failed to recognise the serious threat they represent to the European carriers.

I thought this would be an interesting topic for a thread.

The article can be found at:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7f078f56-c...-99c4-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss

What are people's thoughts?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13834 times:

The FT site i couldn't read.

Found other links:

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/ne...ief-warns-over-middle-east-threat/

http://news.carrentals.co.uk/willie-...-helping-middle-east-34214520.html

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs....709179848/1058&template=columnists


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13530 times:

I expect most of the likely comments are probably already covered in the following lengthy current thread.
"EK Order For 90 A380 Not Enough"says Clark (by solnabo Sep 9 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

go to google and search "BA chief warns of threat from Mideast Airlines" should be one of the first entries


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13276 times:

Why is he complaining? This is the Capitalist world, Rather than "politically" drive your competitor out of the market or deny them access, you should improve your product and level of service and competition will be no more.
The Luxury of Monopoly, the European carriers had over the market between North American to the Middle East/West Asia and europe/ (east, south east asia as well as the Kangaro route), is no more.

Th common myth here at A.net is that Middle Eastern carriers are in the market because their governments live by the "mine is bigger than yours" mantra.
I don't see much truth to that, as these governments are investing their "oil money" to generate more business/income.
The likes of EK, EY, and QR is no different than the investments made by Abu Dhabi Investment Authority ( with a capital of close to $850 Billion), or those made by Qatari government in International companies like owning a double digit share of the combined VW/Porsche.
etc....

These guys are investing heavily..



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11974 times:

Reading these comments I would not be surprised to see BA/IB go for buying a carrier with a hub in the middle east (like Gulf Air for example) - to try to replicate the business model that EK, EH and QR have. IMHO it would not be a smart move, but it does not mean they will not try it.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12899 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11830 times:
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Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
says Europe has failed to recognise the serious threat they represent to the European carriers.

Europe didn't expand their hubs to match market demand...


The mid-east carriers were only able to establish themselves as viable competition.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Europe didn't expand their hubs to match market demand...

Other than LHR as a major hub in Europe, as far as I know, there is no other major European hub that is not up to market demand. May be FRA?!, but there are plans to expand and having MUC as a secondary Hub along with the upcoming new Berlin AIrport, LH should be doing just fine in terms of space.

Also, It was BA's decision to entrench themselves at LHR mainly and LGW secondarily, they pulled out of MAN, which is making money for everyone else including the Gulf carriers.

European carriers need to up the level of service and product they are offering, at least BA recognized that. the likes of KLM, AF, LH et al still has a lot of work to do, it's 2010 and they IFE is still not all over the long haul fleet.

Customer loyalty is something to work on, and not depend on!!!

[Edited 2010-09-17 22:29:20]


I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11569 times:

Why really cannot they become more efficient and compete, rather than whining always ? QR and EY may not be fair, I agree. But EK certainly is a carrier that has proven how an airline should be run. Rather than blaming it on others, what WW should do is learning from EK. After all, Tim Clark is a Brit.  
I know it is not fair. But are there any laws prohibiting an airline's investors in injecting cash to the airline ?
If European legacies strive to stick to 1960s economical situation, blaming others and without evolving themselves, it only will damage them more. The only way out for them is to compete. Otherwise, the day that they will request a monopoly on every route will not be far away.



The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlinerameshksm From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11335 times:

Well, cry me a river Willie. Fair or not, this is competition. Fight it or flee it.

Though to be fair, from what I gather from friends, BA are doing their best to try to compete.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2726 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10680 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 4):
Why is he complaining? This is the Capitalist world, Rather than "politically" drive your competitor out of the market or deny them access, you should improve your product and level of service and competition will be no more.
The Luxury of Monopoly, the European carriers had over the market between North American to the Middle East/West Asia and europe/ (east, south east asia as well as the Kangaro route), is no more.


You need to realise that it is actually the politics that kills aviation in Europe. It is not a free market. The governments hesitate to grant airports the rights needed to expand, because they want to be more green (not realising that what happens is that just outside Europe others build up large airports and take care of the Europeans needs). The European governments have high taxes on aviation. Now they even wants environmental taxes. Then you have Eurocontrol that increase fees even though they are not giving the airlines more capacity in the skies, or less delays. So as long as you have the politicians, this is not the free market. Willie Walsh is not trying to fend of the Middle East carriers. He is trying to get the European politicians to wake up and see that they are ruining their countries industry, just to let their neighbours pick up traffic. For the European economy, building up Airport infrastructure, and give airlines more fair taxationg would probably boost Europes economy. I support Willie Walsh in this!



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10262 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
You need to realise that it is actually the politics that kills aviation in Europe.

I was talking about the politics of denying EK et al more access to international airports, e.g: France, Germany and Canada.
That's what I call unfair competitive practices.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
The governments hesitate to grant airports the rights needed to expand

Red Tape and getting the neighbors ( voters) angry.
Solution?:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
The European governments have high taxes on aviation. Now they even wants environmental taxes. Then you have Eurocontrol that increase fees even though they are not giving the airlines more capacity in the skies, or less delays.

Generating more revenue!

But, if you are travelling to the far east out of lets say LHR, won't you paying the same "Tax" regardless of the carrier you taking whether that's BA, QR, or EK?



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10265 times:

I absolutely agree with OyKIE that European politicians should wake up and develop airlinefriendly environments. That starts with taxes, goes over infrastructure to airspace structure and other things. When the surroundings are fine, I have no doubts that good run European carriers can compete with the middle east carriers.

With the new tax in Germany politicians again have shown how short sighted they are, regarding air traffic. The problem is not middle east carriers expanding like hell, the problem is politicians in Europe having no idea of aviation.


Just my two cents


User currently offlineSAM1987 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 946 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9902 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 4):
This is the Capitalist world, Rather than "politically" drive your competitor out of the market or deny them access, you should improve your product and level of service and competition will be no more.

Unfortunately it isn't a free market - due to regulation in the form of excessive tax and no airport expansion in the UK, most other countries have it far easier.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
You need to realise that it is actually the politics that kills aviation in Europe. It is not a free market.

Agreed.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
The governments hesitate to grant airports the rights needed to expand, because they want to be more green

... which has no green affect at all, passengers just change their routings.

In the UK it can be cheaper for passengers to fly from MAN-DXB-JNB rather than MAN-LHR-JNB because of the mega departure tax on UK domestic flights.

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
But, if you are travelling to the far east out of lets say LHR, won't you paying the same "Tax" regardless of the carrier you taking whether that's BA, QR, or EK?

Yes, but BA has to pay this tax for every single passenger departing the UK. EK and QR can subsidise this tax from profitable routes that don't go to/from the UK.



Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9506 times:

Quoting SAM1987 (Reply 13):
. EK and QR can subsidise this tax from profitable routes that don't go to/from the UK.

At a certain point of time, the route has to be profitable for EK, Qr for them to continue operation... How long will they keep subsidizing the route Taxes?



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

I think Walsh is somehow right: putting operational costs out of the equation, European carriers need to have their taxes cut if they want to fight the massive competition coming from the Gulf states. Mr. Mayrhuber said something similar some months ago when speaking about the new airline ticket tax imposed by Mrs. Merkel.

User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7964 times:

Mr. Walsh is planting the seed for investing in airlines outside of Europe and moving their business to that region to build a new growth engine.

Quoting Centre (Reply 14):
At a certain point of time, the route has to be profitable for EK, Qr for them to continue operation... How long will they keep subsidizing the route Taxes?


Centre, you're right with all your points if the European airlines operated in a marketplace where competition was the primary driver. It's not also not easy when your Middle Eastern comp is using Europe's dream to lead commercial aerospace as a tool to grow. Mr Leahy is one of Mr Walsh worst enemy. And, Mr. Walsh has to deal with the unions who are demanding more to add to the taxes and green costs the poor man is dealing with. I've tried to tell people that the industry is shrinking, and it's issues such as these that are causing the shrinking. Airlines like EK are picking up customers at the expense of airlines dealing with these type issues. It's a bubble game right now, and the Middle Eastern airlines are gather up Mr. Walsh bubbles. The good thing about bubbles is that your comp will begin to face growth issues which will move the market back to equilibrium. If overall customer grows slower than your growth plans, you will need to slow your growth. But, if that's 15 or 20 years from now Mr. Walsh won't be here to whine any more.


User currently offlinef4f3a From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7583 times:

In addition to the constraint of taxes and infrastructure that impedes the european carriers theres also the hefty cost of pensions and national insurance and employers tax.

I dont think emirates or etihad has to pay these large fees so even though the salaries may may good there actually cheaper than the cost of hiring in europe


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4869 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6064 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I was talking about the politics of denying EK et al more access to international airports, e.g: France, Germany and Canada.
That's what I call unfair competitive practices.

So you would advocate abandoning bilateral and other agreements between countries. Your advice should be directed against your own country. It has it's share of anti-competitive rules and regulations surrounding the airline industry.


User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 488 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6001 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 18):
So you would advocate abandoning bilateral and other agreements between countries. Your advice should be directed against your own country. It has it's share of anti-competitive rules and regulations surrounding the airline industry.

I wasn't advocating anything of that sort!... Through out the year, I live between Tampa and Toronto ( Married to a Canadian). Having said that, Government involvement in the US is no where close to that in Canada on so many levels, same goes with the Tax System, (HST)!!!, Rogers and Bell duopoly, and AC and WS duopoly as well ( same price on most of the routes year round).
YYZ is second highest in the world in terms of landing fees.
The $20 dollar we have to pay for "Airport Improvement Fee" every time I travel out of YYZ ( This is a fee that was introduced at the time of building Terminal 1, people were paying it because they have to fly, and now it's a set fee that will always be there even after all construction is complete, and it was increased recently).

The only way for AC to compete with EK for passengers travelling to India, Iran...etc was through lobbying against granting EK any more slots at YYZ, as if it's slot constrained, and deny them complete access to any other Canadian airport.

The rules here are much more relaxed, because if they were not AC, and WS would have to shut down long time ago because Trans-border flights is their primary source of income, unlike the major airlines here.
Imagine what would happen if the likes of B6 and WN establish bases at YYZ, YVR, YYC, and YUL?



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5940 times:
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Quoting BAfan (Thread starter):
He warns of the significant threat from Middle Eastern carriers such as Emirates, Etihad and Qatar, and says Europe has failed to recognise the serious threat they represent to the European carriers.

There is also the potential of a threat from US carriers.

According to CAPA, the introduction of non-stops to the US from the Middle East and Africa is - apparently - drawing traffic away from the European hubs:

http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...africa-away-from-europe-hubs/page1

"US non-stop services divert traffic from Middle East and Africa away from Europe hubs"

This has been mostly because of the Middle Eastern carriers, but, as the article notes, Delta and United are getting on on the act as well.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Did anyone actually bother to read Willie Walsh's comments? He was not whining, or asking for the imposition of taxes on EK et al, or the removal/withholding of landing rights etc. He was simply saying these airlines pose a threat to European airlines, which the European airlines themselves have yet to fully wake up to. He's calling on European carriers to compete more effectively, not hide behind protectionism.

The only thing he did argue for was the lifting of bans on European countries providing credit to their airlines, since they are able to provide credit to the Mid-East carriers ("funding the competition" as he called it), thus in that sense, it's not an entirely level playing field. (Though BA/LH/AF etc obviously don't have too much difficulty finding credit abroad - perhaps they just want it cheaply from their own governments...)


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7065 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
The governments hesitate to grant airports the rights needed to expand, because they want to be more green (not realising that what happens is that just outside Europe others build up large airports and take care of the Europeans needs).

Maybe these governments are more concerned with the environment for all the citizens versus those who travel, which is greater?

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 10):
He is trying to get the European politicians to wake up and see that they are ruining their countries industry, just to let their neighbours pick up traffic.
Quoting JL418 (Reply 15):
European carriers need to have their taxes cut if they want to fight the massive competition coming from the Gulf states.

Anyone ever consider that the governments may eventually decide that it is an industry they could do without? History of the developed world has shown that at some point, societies advance to a level where some industries are no longer viable. Aviation will continue to exist but there may be a trend to reduce its size and importance.
The politicians doing this are the same ones who are praised for other initiatives, they know the effects of their legislations. Smoking used to be much bigger than it presently is, increase taxes even under the guise of health was a means to an end.

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 17):
In addition to the constraint of taxes and infrastructure that impedes the european carriers theres also the hefty cost of pensions and national insurance and employers tax.

So benefits provided to the citizens who pay taxes and elect politicians to put such rules and regulations in place for their benefit are now a liabilty.

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
There is also the potential of a threat from US carriers.

According to CAPA, the introduction of non-stops to the US from the Middle East and Africa is - apparently - drawing traffic away from the European hubs:

I would say it is technology and the economic investment in the aviation industry of member countries. If Middle East and African countries had the means and the "moxey" to purchase or invest in ULH a/c decades ago the stop over hubs in Europe would never have grown so large.
If a/c like the 787 and A350 offer range and economic payload for bypassing Europe directly into North America their importance as stop over hubs will continue to decrease.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5735 times:
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Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
If Middle East and African countries had the means and the "moxey" to purchase or invest in ULH a/c decades ago the stop over hubs in Europe would never have grown so large.


In the case of Dubai, it amuses me that virtually all the European airlines flying east and all the eastern airlines flying west used to stop there for refueling, or one of the Gulf airports.

It was known then that Dubai could be an important cross-roads, but the longer range aircraft made Dubai unnecessary so they dropped it - immediate self-interest over a more long term view?

So surely no one is surprised that Dubai wanted some of that traffic and revenue back, and more, and going into its own pocket?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5597 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 19):
The only way for AC to compete with EK for passengers travelling to India, Iran...etc was through lobbying against granting EK any more slots at YYZ, as if it's slot constrained, and deny them complete access to any other Canadian airport.

AC doesn't fly to India at the moment (they most likely will when they get 787's) so the airline directly will lose some traffic to and from Europe (mainly FRA due to *A connection) the European airlines that serve YYZ might leave completely and they could be lobbying the Canadian government.

The Canadian government agree with them or not choose to base the amount of slots given to an airline based on O+D and not 5th freedom beyond an airline's hub and EK and EY have slots that meet that demand.

Personally I would give EK access to YVR and YYC on a 3x weekly basis to start and up YYZ to daily. The only thing that I fear about doing this is the fact that all other airlines in the middle east will want equal rights so who do we give them to (some will say all) or do they have to prove their case.

Quoting Centre (Reply 19):
Government involvement in the US is no where close to that in Canada on so many levels, same goes with the Tax System, (HST)!!!, Rogers and Bell duopoly, and AC and WS duopoly as well ( same price on most of the routes year round).
YYZ is second highest in the world in terms of landing fees.

Those Duopolies that you speak of are the result of free market conditions, Rogers and Bell dominate telecommunications in Canada because they drive competition out of business which is not necessarily ethical but is not something that the government interferes with within Canada. Where they do interfere is that they only approve other Canadian based competition and not open the floodgates to foreign competition. We get criticized for that with banking but we are #1 in that industry.

As for AC and WS it has been determined that Canada can't sustain more than 2 major airlines due to our population and geography. Also the argument can be made that the US is flooded with too many airlines and that has been corrected in recent years with mergers.

Quoting Centre (Reply 19):
Imagine what would happen if the likes of B6 and WN establish bases at YYZ, YVR, YYC, and YUL?

Personally I say bring them on because if either of those airlines had an interest in serving Canada they wouldn't be denied based on the amount of cross border traffic and AC and WS would fight them on marquis routes. VX just started YYZ in June and time will tell if they can sustain them with AC's hold on YYZ-California.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
25 RyanairGuru : I'm not trying to be controversial but by their own logic shouldn't the Canadian government reduce AC's traffic rights to Frankfurt since it is clear
26 Viscount724 : The bilateral is between Canada and the UAE, not Dubai. It's up to the UAE to designate the carriers to serve Canada within the permssible frequencie
27 crownvic : Willie Walsh's scare is 100% justified...You can do all the finger pointing you want and talk about all the reasons for European airlines not stepping
28 rameshksm : Isn't that one of the facets of globalization? That somewhere out there is a competitor that would be better organized or better financed or better a
29 TN486 : Why do you feel it would not be a smart move??
30 RyanairGuru : I think that the only reason it wouldn't be a smart move is that GulfAir hasn't made a profit in goodness knows how long. Still I think I read that t
31 scbriml : While I'm a supporter of both BA and EK, BA need to take a look at themselves in the mirror. Its many critics will point to BA's lack of international
32 Post contains images OyKIE : This is correct. So if we where talking Origin and destination traffic going only between Europe and the Middle East, then I would see no problems. B
33 cedarjet : BA are a hub themselves, flying thousands of punters every day from India, Middle East and continental Europe to N America. They just got their shiny
34 RyanairGuru : True, but let's say I want to fly from Manchester to Mumbai. If I fly MAN-LHR-BOM I pay UK departure tax twice: ex MAN and then again ex LHR If I fly
35 Post contains images afriwing : exactly .. and MAN dep tax is less than LHR dep tax .. so MAN-DXB-BOM will still work out cheaper than MAN-LHR by train then a LHR-BOM flight (which
36 rutankrd : Wrong if your on the same ticket MAN-LHR-BOM (With connection within 6 hours) or MAN- DXB- BOM on the same ticket the level of ADP payable is the SAM
37 StarAC17 : I wouldn't think that applies because why would the Canadian government control what international destinations AC serves, wouldn't that be up to the
38 Timboflier215 : But you have to connect through a hub in both cases (BA in LHR, EK in DXB). Saying 'look at EK flying l/h from BHX, MAN, EDI etc. is all very well, b
39 AirNZ : Or, what he really means is that they are competition for BA which BA can't handle by buying them out or receiving protection from. People do have a
40 scbriml : Yes, but my point was, in most cases, EK is cheaper than BA to fly from A to B via either London or Dubai. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
41 Timboflier215 : Ah, right, in which case I do agree with you! As is so often the case, the costs for the big European and American carriers are really killing them w
42 Viscount724 : Canada-Germany (and the other 26 EU countries) is Open Skies. Any Canadian or European carriers can operate as often as they want between anywhere in
43 Post contains images MaverickM11 : EK is doing the exact same thing as BA--they're DXB airways just as much as BA is London Airways. EU governments are trying to figure out how to tax
44 mariner : The geographic position of the two is entirely different. Gander was always only a refueling stop for trans-Atlantic flights. From Gander you cannot
45 MaverickM11 : With a 777 you can hit just about anything except for Australia. Okay, so then why not BAH, MCT, or even SHJ, which were more common stopovers for ca
46 mariner : My statement remains valid. But if you're willing to discount Australia, then some bright spark should start an airline hubbed in Gander. Nothing is
47 david_itl : BG, CX, RB used (or still use) DXB for example. Perhaps you can refresh us with the airlines that used MCT, BAH and SHJ?
48 Post contains images SR4ever : Let's try BAH: BA, CX, SQ, TG, UT, SR, QF SHJ: CA MCT: UT, BA Can' remember where KL, AZ, LH and MH would stopover.
49 par13del : Europeans won't care too much about that argument, that is exactly the reason the US Administration gave for not signing the Kyoto Accords and the EU
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