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Aerolineas Argentinas To Get Qatar A346s?  
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12409 posts, RR: 37
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12340 times:

It's been rumoured on another site that AR will be taking QR's four A340-600s; AR's current A340s - two -200s and two -300s - are all quite old (all four in double digit line numbers, dating them back to 1994/95) and Qatar presumably wants to standardise its long haul fleet on the 777.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12300 times:
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Well, QR have been saying for a long time they wanted to get rid of their A346s. Maybe they've now got enough 777s to do so?

The 777s look good in QR colours, but are beaten IMHO by the A340s.

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[Edited 2010-09-19 12:17:33]


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12243 times:

It could be but I see it difficult because actually QR A346 are 3 class configuration and all the others B777 are only 2 class.....

Actually is a very good idea to get rid of them, because they only have 4, maybe IB could interested in them as well...

Maybe some of the new planes (B777) will be with 3 class, I hope someone inside QR could give us some light.....


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12036 times:

Well, AR had ordered the a346 a long time ago, but those have been cancelled. So perhaps now they are finally in a position to take the larger aircraft and second hand at that. Cheaper than new....


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12409 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11905 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
It could be but I see it difficult because actually QR A346 are 3 class configuration and all the others B777 are only 2 class.....

I think the A346s have now been converted to a 2-class layout; QR still has F Class on some A330s however.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6134 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11586 times:
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For the sake of following the discussion, how will AR afford, or finance these planes? They will loose money this year and are forecast to loose money in 2011. The Argentine economy is none too rosy either, so I do not see the government buying AR new aircraft.

The TAM-LAN merger is going to hurt them further, and it doesn´t seem that AR has plans of any sort or with any seriousness for the long term, except for an announced new paint job on their planes. Do they have a good relationship with leasing companies? Is it easy for them to get ahold of decent financing still? Maybe the Qatari planes are dirt cheap?



MGGS
User currently offlineDCAJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11443 times:

News about AR getting these birds have been making its rounds in the Buenos Aires press since the last week of August. During a visit to Buenos Aires the Qatari Emir and the Argentina government signed the deal, subject to final approval by the board of Aerolineas Argentinas SA. What has been made public is that Qatar will lease the 4 A346HGW to AR for an undisclosed period of time.

These birds should be deployed primarily on the routes to Madrid and Rome. AR's 3 744 are due to be returned to the lessor in 2011 which is when the ex Qatar planes should arrive in Argentina.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
For the sake of following the discussion, how will AR afford, or finance these planes? They will loose money this year and are forecast to loose money in 2011. The Argentine economy is none too rosy either, so I do not see the government buying AR new aircraft.

The TAM-LAN merger is going to hurt them further, and it doesn´t seem that AR has plans of any sort or with any seriousness for the long term, except for an announced new paint job on their planes. Do they have a good relationship with leasing companies? Is it easy for them to get ahold of decent financing still? Maybe the Qatari planes are dirt cheap?

For starters, AR has the financial clout of the Argentine State, so its pockets are far deeper than when Marsans or Iberia ran the airline. Argentina's economy is expected to grow by 5% this year, behind Peru and Brazil only. While AR is projected to be in the red thru the end of 2011, it has recorded in July its highest load factor and most hours flown in a month ever. And as to new aircraft purchases, the first 2 of 20 EMB190AR are arriving in Buenos Aires tomorrow.

I don't see why the LATAM deal will be such a threat to AR. It is not a merger in the typical sense of the word, but the combination of the two airlines which will continue to operate independently, pooling resources for purchases, and stuff like that. Much as the KLM/AF deal.

And there is no shortage of leased planes in AR's fleet and deals keep coming to its management (738s are rumored) so I suppose that you don't need to worry about the state of affairs between AR and the lessor community.

And by December you should see AR back in MEX, daily with A340. With the disappearance of MX, there is only AM left providing the only non stop link between the two largest capitals in Spanish America.

Rds,

[Edited 2010-09-19 16:22:43]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineAMX748 From Mexico, joined Jan 2008, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11394 times:

Hope we see some A346 in AR colours here in MEX

User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11347 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
AR's current A340s - two -200s and two -300s - are all quite old (all four in double digit line numbers, dating them back to 1994/95)

Wow...we debate the DL/NW DC-9's on a daily basis and now we think that 15-16 year old airplanes are OLD?


User currently offlineDCAJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11296 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
It's been rumoured on another site that AR will be taking QR's four A340-600s; AR's current A340s - two -200s and two -300s - are all quite old (all four in double digit line numbers, dating them back to 1994/95) and Qatar presumably wants to standardise its long haul fleet on the 777.

There are 3 340-300 in AR's fleet now: LV-CEK joined the fleet in June and it has not been painted in the new livery but kept in all white scheme with AR's condor only on the fin. It should leave the fleet when the 4 A346 arrive, together with the 744s.



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11418 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10908 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
For the sake of following the discussion, how will AR afford, or finance these planes? They will loose money this year and are forecast to loose money in 2011. The Argentine economy is none too rosy either, so I do not see the government buying AR new aircraft.

The TAM-LAN merger is going to hurt them further, and it doesn´t seem that AR has plans of any sort or with any seriousness for the long term, except for an announced new paint job on their planes. Do they have a good relationship with leasing companies? Is it easy for them to get ahold of decent financing still? Maybe the Qatari planes are dirt cheap?

Argentina is not so bad as it seems, they are growing.

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 6):
I don't see why the LATAM deal will be such a threat to AR. It is not a merger in the typical sense of the word, but the combination of the two airlines which will continue to operate independently, pooling resources for purchases, and stuff like that. Much as the KLM/AF deal

Agree with you. Buenos Aires have a very interesting market, a good mix of leisure + business + local + VFR and year round demand... people like to go on Summer or Winter to Argentina. What they need is to develop more long haul non-stop to places such as London, New York, among others.

Quoting DCAJet (Reply 6):
These birds should be deployed primarily on the routes to Madrid and Rome. AR's 3 744 are due to be returned to the lessor in 2011 which is when the ex Qatar planes should arrive in Argentina

Don't forget about SYD. I do see MIA as a potential destination for these A346 but i agree, MAD should be the priority!



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10833 times:

I was gonna say, AR need to deploy this on the SYD route purely because if it gets rid of the earlier A340s, then the A330s coming will never do the job.

Also with the A346, AR could pretty much do SYD non-stop with a much more competitive product then QF offers. This could be a good way to counter the LATAM threat. After all,taking LATAM with the current arrangement will involve 2 stops from say GRU to SYD. Of course, the merged carrier will have A345s, so all that could change as some of the routes, like say MXP for example will have heavier demand after the merger with LAN feeding them too so switching them to 77W isn't out of the question. Ditto for some of the CDG flights etc.


User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Don't forget about SYD.
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
I was gonna say, AR need to deploy this on the SYD route

I am getting my camera ready. And those birds will be in the new livery = double bonus!

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
Also with the A346, AR could pretty much do SYD non-stop

noooo - they MUST come through AKL..... 


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10162 times:

Would be good for AR. The "oh-so-terrible"-A346 will certainly be more efficient than their 744s. So 4 A346 for three 744 and one A342, than A332s to replace A342 and A343, E-Jets to replace MadDogs and 737s, will give them a nice fleet.

Sad for spotters, though. I walked (next to a highway) near AEP two years ago, and it was great to see those MDs and 737classics there.


User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1540 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):
Would be good for AR. The "oh-so-terrible"-A346 will certainly be more efficient than their 744s


Agree. With the right traffic and routes, the A346 makes money...LH, IB and SA can testify

In QR's case, the A346 was simply the best available aircraft at the time, so their continuous moaning about the A346 has always baffled me...a good craftsman never blames his tools as he always chooses the correct tool for the work in hand

Albeit the superb 77W pushes the A346 into a poor second place in the efficiency stakes, the big Boeing is still a distant second when it comes to cabin noise and comfort and I will always be grateful for Airbus that they set such a high standard on this front with the A345/6.



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8562 times:

For AR though, the A346 makes particular sense. Firstly they need freedom from ETOPS for The Australia route, and next they need good hot and high performance for the most important city in their long haul network, Madrid. That alone makes this the best aircraft for those particular needs. The A345 will not give them the CASM they need, and the 777 isn't an option on their transpacific route. (or really trans antartic almost). It would make similar sense for Qantas on a few routes too. It's just carriers like IB, AR, QF and SA have some unique concerns most carriers dont have to deal with.

User currently offlineEltomzo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
I think the A346s have now been converted to a 2-class layout; QR still has F Class on some A330s however.

I flew on A7-AGB last week and it still had F. I was in J and it felt seriously dated by the standards of the 77Ws - non touch-screen IFE, not fully lie-flat seats etc. The whole 346 fleet could do with either a revamp or selling off.



AA AC AF BA BD BE BR CA CI CX CZ EZY FR HU HX GA GS IT J2 KL LH LX MK MU NH OZ QR SA SQ TG TK TCX UN UX VN VS VY WY W6 Y
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2962 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7851 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
I think the A346s have now been converted to a 2-class layout; QR still has F Class on some A330s however.
Quoting Eltomzo (Reply 16):
I flew on A7-AGB last week and it still had F. I was in J and it felt seriously dated by the standards of the 77Ws - non touch-screen IFE, not fully lie-flat seats etc. The whole 346 fleet could do with either a revamp or selling off.

QR's A346s are still in the 3 class configuration. The only thing that has changed is that the F class lounge has gone thus increasing the capacity from 266 (8/42/216) to 306 (8/42/256).

QR's A346s do routes mostly to CDG, LHR. DEL, BOM gets them as well but it is more to utilise the aircraft. It seems CDG, LHR are on their way to get B777s (in case of LHR more B777s).



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39703 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7287 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
AR's current A340s - two -200s and two -300s - are all quite old (all four in double digit line numbers, dating them back to 1994/95)

  

That is hardly "old" for an aircraft.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12409 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6445 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
That is hardly "old" for an aircraft.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 8):
Wow...we debate the DL/NW DC-9's on a daily basis and now we think that 15-16 year old airplanes are OLD?

True, although they are getting on a bit; what I really meant to say is that, in percentile terms, AR's A340s are among the oldest 10%.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 11):
then the A330s coming will never do the job.

When are the A330s coming? What route are they intended for?


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6445 times:

Apart from new 748i's, these are about the best aircraft from AR.

Gives them the legs to do Australia (while flooding the market with cheap seats), deals with the hot and high issues of EZE-MAD and MEX, and allows for some capacity where they need it ..to MIA.

I have always thought that AR (and LAN) were some of the best 748i candidates.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineDCAJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 422 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5087 times:

Not to open another AR topic... In a related note, the first 2 of 20 ERJ190AR ordered by AR for its domestic feeder subsidiary, Austral Lineas Aereas, were scheduled to land at AEP today from SJK. Aircraft are registered LV-CDY and LV-CDZ and will begin commercial service on Saturday (Sep 25) with an AEP-NQN rotation, departing AEP at 06:05 AM and arriving NQN at 08:00 AM, as AU#2652.

These planes are the first equipped with a Live TV/in flite entertainment option at every seat deployed solely on domestic routes in Argentina and they are part of AR's biz plan to improve the on board product/experience, as well as beginning to phase out AU's MD80 fleet. AU has been using the Mad Dogs non stop since January 1981 and is, if memory serves, the longest uninterrupted operator of the type - having flown the 81/82/83/88 versions.

Slowly AR begins to crawl from out of the hole it dug itself into under years of Iberia and then Marsans management (1991-2008).



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1808 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

A pilot friend of mine said that the A340s wiill depeart in October.


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 22):
A pilot friend of mine said that the A340s wiill depeart in October.

Excellent...sooner rather then later. ALL AR will need to do is remove the first class...plus the J class section a little further forward and then add a couple of extra rows of economy seats to fill the gap created and change the seat fabic to some shade of blue/navy/possibly black for the J class.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39703 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 19):
True, although they are getting on a bit; what I really meant to say is that, in percentile terms, AR's A340s are among the oldest 10%.

True but the A340 is very much a new/modern aircraft.
Saying that it's of the older 10% isn't saying much.
In just 5 years from now, ANA will have the oldest 10% of 787s.
The Aerolineas Argentinas A340s have many, many years left in them.



Bring back the Concorde
25 Post contains links DCAJet : Arrival at AEP of LV-CDZ this afternoon, one of 2 EMB190AR (out of 20) ordered by AR for its domestic subsidiary Austral. They are the first aircraft
26 aerorobnz : lol even in the state they are in....
27 Post contains links Argentina : Enjoy this video, E-190 by Austral http://www.aerolineas.com.ar/arg/bodies/popup_Embraer.asp
28 ZK-NBT : Are they actually getting any A332s? They would be good for North America and some Europe services I think. Nice thought but I don't think either rea
29 Burkhard : The A346 is an excellent choice for them, and since they can lease them that will help them to get to the black again...
30 Asiaflyer : AR was rumoured to take MSN1031 and 1042, which originally was designated for Marsans. Instead those two frames ended up with HongKong AL.
31 LVZXV : AR not only ordered 6 A340-600s a long time ago (in 1999), but they were set to become launch customer of the type in December 2001. For obvious reas
32 Post contains links and images Thorben : The furthest I remember was this friend here: View Large View MediumPhoto © T.Laurent He flies for HongKong Airlines now.
33 oneworld77 : Hi - sorry, this is off thread, but I've a number of flights with QR booked in December and January and particularly chose the LHR departures that li
34 DCAJet : Gone for good. Marsans and Aerolineas did not come to an agreement on the economic terms that Marsans demanded to transfer the order to AR so Airbus
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