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Bloomberg:Airbus Nears A320 Upgrade  
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 14307 times:

According to Bloomberg, Airbus will make a desicion about A320 New engine Option (NEO) in October. Interesting article.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...ing-questions-efficiency-gain.html


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 14233 times:

October. That is soon.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 14035 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 1):
October. That is soon.

And seeing how such senior execs (COO) are going on the record to talk about it, it'd be amazing if they don't go forward.

It looks like it will be PW GTF (and not an IAE engine) vs. GE CFM.

If CFM wins, I wonder if we'll be hearing a.net members lament that it's old tech from the 70's?

In any case, I hope they do go forward. It'll be very interesting to see if they can stick to the EUR 1.0 - 1.5 budget quoted in the article, and get it out the door in a timely fashion.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13981 times:

With the disappointing sales of the C-series, I see PW has a lot of interest to get their engines to the market, so they will take a share of the costs - then I see how the Airbus part of the costs can be as low...

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1884 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13929 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
If CFM wins, I wonder if we'll be hearing a.net members lament that it's old tech from the 70's?

It's a misprint. Airbus stated many times that they consider using CFM Leap-X, not CFM56. Hardly any old tech from the 70's in that one.

[Edited 2010-09-20 05:41:35]


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinemat66 From Germany, joined Jan 2010, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13893 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
If CFM wins, I wonder if we'll be hearing a.net members lament that it's old tech from the 70's?

Will there only be one engine as an option ? I thought it will be both.

Waiting to stand corrected...


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13794 times:

Quoting mat66 (Reply 5):
Will there only be one engine as an option ? I thought it will be both.

Waiting to stand corrected...

As am I...   

I thought that in the interest of cost and time to market there would only be one engine certified.

This article uses "and" instead of "or" in the engine choices, so it very well may be that two will be certified.

The section of interest:

Quote:

New engines would involve a more fuel-efficient version of the CFM56 model with a new hot section, or core, and a new model from Pratt & Whitney, whose geared turbofan allows the outer fan to turn at different speeds, using less fuel.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13737 times:

What happened to the story that Airbus would accept an engine from IAE but not solely from PW? Should not be difficult to make a V2500 match the Leap X one would have thought????

User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 13719 times:

Let's hope that the 318-NEO will be a tougher competitor against regional 100-seaters than the original 318.

User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 14 hours ago) and read 13379 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 8):
Let's hope that the 318-NEO will be a tougher competitor against regional 100-seaters than the original 318.

There will be no A318NEO, according to Airbus the smallest version will be the A319.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (4 years 14 hours ago) and read 13346 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
t looks like it will be PW GTF (and not an IAE engine) vs. GE CFM.
If CFM wins
From the wording in the article it looks like that both will be an option. But it's indeed not clear.
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 8):
Let's hope that the 318-NEO will be a tougher competitor against regional 100-seaters than the original 318.

I very much doubt the a318 will get the NEO option. The a319/a320/a321 are a a shoe-in seeing their sales record. IIRC the a320 would be first followed by the a321.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 13236 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
From the wording in the article it looks like that both will be an option. But it's indeed not clear.

Thanks for catching that. Note I did address it in #6 somewhat.

And the article also says:

Quote:

Airbus said in July that it would decide on the engine options this month.

So again the article uses the plural for engine options.

It's just interesting to me that the COO is making some tantalizing public statements about the NEO.

On the other hand, he does leave himself a way out:

Quote:

The final decision to approve the business case for new engines hasn’t been signed off on, and the company is still “talking in the conditional tense,” Bregier said.

Must be a fun time to be in the engineering department at Airbus!

As a (non-aviation) engineer, we love it when the bosses are talking about new programs. I hope the engineers at Airbus feel the same way.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 13181 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 10):
There will be no A318NEO, according to Airbus the smallest version will be the A319

Then how is Airbus gonna compete against the CS100?

A319-NEO will be relevant against CS130, so why no A318-NEO against CS100?

Apart than the new engines, which (limited) changes can we expect with A320-NEO? Sharklets? Cockpit to 380 and 350 standards?


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 13138 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
Then how is Airbus gonna compete against the CS100?

First the CS100 needs to sell. And the question is whether Airbus even wants to compete in this segment anymore.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
which (limited) changes can we expect with A320-NEO?

First indeed the sharklets. The wings need to be strengthened to cope with the larger engines. I believe there will also be some aerodynamic upgrades here and there.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 13 hours ago) and read 13110 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 13):
Then how is Airbus gonna compete against the CS100?

They will not, the market will be Bombardier vs Embraer, Airbus vs Boeing

The A318 has no chance against the EJet or the CSeries it is too heavy even new engines won´t help that. The first A318s are already being scrapped as they have no market.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 12971 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 14):
First the CS100 needs to sell.

The order book for the CS100 looks indeed somehow depressing.

If its doesn't improve, some customers may even pull out, who knows.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 14):
And the question is whether Airbus even wants to compete in this segment anymore.

If they don't, then it may be a threat on the 319-NG, if Bombardier offers CS-100 and CS-130.

It might even open opportunities to Rekkof.

Quoting columba (Reply 15):
They will not, the market will be Bombardier vs Embraer, Airbus vs Boeing

The A318 has no chance against the EJet or the CSeries it is too heavy even new engines won´t help that. The first A318s are already being scrapped as they have no market.

How are current A318 operators gonna replace it? Upgauge to A319-NG to retain commonality? Or go for CS-100 or E95?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12561 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 12874 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 14):
First indeed the sharklets. The wings need to be strengthened to cope with the larger engines. I believe there will also be some aerodynamic upgrades here and there.

The sharklets predate the NEO program, so I'm sure you can get them even if Airbus decides not to go with the NEO.

And it seems both vendors roll out incremental aerodynamic upgrades as they are available.

The article gives us an interesting list of what stuff is being done for NEO specifically:

Quote:

Airbus has forged preliminary agreements with two engine makers and is talking to suppliers of nacelles that house the engines, landing gear, and other equipment that would need changing, he said.

Not very thorough, but it is interesting to see they have already got preliminary agreements with Pratt and CFM.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
With the disappointing sales of the C-series, I see PW has a lot of interest to get their engines to the market, so they will take a share of the costs - then I see how the Airbus part of the costs can be as low...

It will be interesting to see if either Pratt or CFM will be risk-sharing partners.

In the case of Pratt, they really do need the business, but wonder how far the BoD will let them go in terms of buying their way onto what is known to be an interim aircraft.

But in reading the CFM Wiki page, it really takes a long time to get a new engine established, and if Pratt is serious about the GTF, this may be a great chance for them to get their nose into the tent.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16):
How are current A318 operators gonna replace it? Upgauge to A319-NG to retain commonality? Or go for CS-100 or E95?

Probably with the C Series, MRJ or E Jet.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSchorschNG From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 9918 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 15):
The A318 has no chance against the EJet or the CSeries it is too heavy even new engines won´t help that. The first A318s are already being scrapped as they have no market.

It might an option as "long range" jet, like BA is using it from London City. But the costs of getting the engine on that airframe, and considering the market of only a few airframes. So, I think you are right.



From a structural standpoint, passengers are the worst possible payload. [Michael Chun-Yung Niu]
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 9794 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16):
If they don't, then it may be a threat on the 319-NG, if Bombardier offers CS-100 and CS-130.

Sure, it may be. But the a319 will get the NEO option and IIRC will have a higher payload and range than the CS130.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16):
It might even open opportunities to Rekkof.

I am in the least very sceptical of the Rekkof project. I love the Fokkers, but IMHO it's time has past.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
The sharklets predate the NEO program, so I'm sure you can get them even if Airbus decides not to go with the NEO.

They indeed predate the NEO program and will be implemented no matter what. IIRC Finnair will be the first airline with a321 equipped sharklets, correct?



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 hours ago) and read 9729 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
According to Bloomberg, Airbus will make a desicion about A320 New engine Option (NEO) in October.

That would make a Boeing decision plausible by the end of the year then.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 8):
Let's hope that the 318-NEO will be a tougher competitor against regional 100-seaters than the original 318.

The 318 NEO is probably sitting in a trash bin somewhere.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25332 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 hours ago) and read 8948 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 12):
why no A318-NEO against CS100?

You're flying much more weight around than necessary. it means higher operating costs and landing fees on every flight.


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 8539 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
You're flying much more weight around than necessary. it means higher operating costs and landing fees on every flight.

If so, couldn't ATR/Airbus work on a specific 70 to 100-seat Regional Jet, filling the gap between the ATR72-600 and the 319-NEO?

Something simple and light as an ATR, yet bearing some commonality with the A320-NEO family (cockpit and cabin especially)...


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 8250 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 22):

They could, but their engineering is apparently stretched thin and the money is in bigger planes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6189 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 hours ago) and read 8030 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 22):
If so, couldn't ATR/Airbus work on a specific 70 to 100-seat Regional Jet

ATR almost jumped into the RJ frenzy (along with every other small player and some paper start-ups) just over a decade ago.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
25 Stitch : It appears Rolls and Pratt could not come to an agreement, so Airbus agreed to let Pratt come aboard with the PurePower and informed Rolls Royce thei
26 Post contains images lightsaber : It is very unlikely Airbus would go with less than two engines. Having competing engines effectively subsidizes each airframe by about $2 Million (due
27 KGRB : Admittedly, I am an A320 fanboy, but I think this is going to be the right call for Airbus in the end. A lot has been said by A & B to indicate th
28 r2rho : Once / if it becomes clear to Airbus that Boeing will go for an all-new NB rather than reengine, Airbus needs to launch NEO ASAP to EIS quickly enough
29 rheinwaldner : "Airbus bluffs!" "This is not more concrete than Boeing plans for the 737NEO!" "And it does no way mean that the A320 offers more straightforward upgr
30 scouseflyer : The most important, and as yet unanswered, question in all of this, is what will these birds be called? A319- 300 A320-300 A321-300 Or simply have NEO
31 columba : Doubtful when you take the 747-8, 787-8 and A380-800, as a reference it will be A319-800 A320-800 A321-800
32 SR4ever : Resources are gonna be released as the 380 program gains more maturity. There might be an opportunity by 2013-2015, as the 350 gets through EIS Yes,
33 Revelation : Thanks for pointing that out, but then one wonders if Airbus will pull off the program in the EUR 1.0 - 1.5 ball park. Two different engines means tw
34 planemaker : And the Russians (and perhaps one day the Indians). There isn't room for yet another player. There is a reason why there are only two TP players, two
35 Post contains images lightsaber : All true. But you also have HALF the maintenance costs in the engine! (Ok, more for the 717, less for MD-80's, etc.) So airlines tend to be loyal to
36 Post contains links Revelation : Indeed, on the other hand Airbus is charging $7M - $8M premium per frame for the NEO. I presume this addresses the R&D costs, since I presume the
37 Post contains images lightsaber : The current A321 structurally is good to 33k of thrust. I expect a small increase. Perhaps to 35k. Nothing dramatic that would require a major struct
38 rheinwaldner : No, this one. The 734 did also not get a new wing.
39 Post contains links Revelation : Thanks for the feedback. I'm trying to get more clarity about what really is on the table with regard to the A320 NEO. I agree that the NEO will be po
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