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F9 Back At BDL  
User currently offlinegolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

On 9/27 F9 will start service between BDL and MKE with ERJ equipment. I wish the route success, but what makes F9 thinks this route will succeed over their previous BDL - DEN route?

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineiliribdl From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

I heard they're thinking about adding DEN before the year ends. Also US will work the flight for them.


delta.com
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting golftango (Thread starter):
but what makes F9 thinks this route will succeed over their previous BDL - DEN route?

YX flew this route for over a decade with CRJs.. was actually 3x for a while, then went down to 2x. So really its more like a Yx return than a F9 return. for DEN the F9 flights did great in the summer, but tanked in the off season, with WN on BDL-DEN now Id be surprised of F9 launches BDL-DEN.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
YX flew this route for over a decade with CRJs.. was actually 3x for a while, then went down to 2x. So really its more like a Yx return than a F9 return. for DEN the F9 flights did great in the summer, but tanked in the off season, with WN on BDL-DEN now Id be surprised of F9 launches BDL-DEN.

The 190 does have the range for BDL-DEN so if they were to relaunch it, this would probably be the aircraft as opposed to the A319.

And YX didn't have CRJs for over a decade, since OO only flew about a year or two for them. YX used to fly the 328 Jet on the route for many years before this.


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Midwest flew DC9 and occasionally D9S BDL-MKE starting back in 1997 or so. Usually it was 2x, but briefly there was a 3rd flight which sometimes operated BDL-PHL-MKE.

Hartford switched to FRJ not too long after 9/11 (maybe 2002) and usually flew 3x/day with the FRJ. That switched to the CRJ when Skywest came, until BDL was dropped with the 9/8/2008 major YX retrenchment.

Frontier's original BDL service was a very different venture than restoring BDL-MKE with the RJ.


User currently offlinesectflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Will they use a US gate or have a dedicated one?

User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9235 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

i'm excited for their 'return' and the fares are great! ill be flying them very soon.

i do believe they'll be using a US Airways gate. right now, there isn't enough gate space for their own gate for just two flights a day. however, i do believe jetBlue is getting A8 - possibly for themselves.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineiliribdl From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting sectflyer (Reply 5):
Will they use a US gate or have a dedicated one?

A US gate as far as I know.



delta.com
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

Well, this really isn't an F9 return as much as a resumption of YX service. Ironically enough, both airlines pulled out of BDL right around the same time (back in the fall of '08). YX had served the market for years, F9 was simply ending a brief experiment with daily redeyes to small Eastern markets like BDL, JAX, and PBI. Not surprising to see MKE-BDL come back first, and with WN now serving DEN-BDL, I wonder if F9 would even want to restart that one at all.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 3226 times:
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Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 8):
Ironically enough, both airlines pulled out of BDL right around the same time (back in the fall of '08). YX had served the market for years, F9 was simply ending a brief experiment with daily redeyes to small Eastern markets like BDL, JAX, and PBI.

In Frontier's case, it was mostly the ever ascending price of oil. When Sean Menke was appointed as CEO, oil was at about $55 bbl, by the time he started the job it was at $72 and within a couple of months it had hit over $100. As we now know, it just kept going up.

BDL and JAX had both done exceptionally well in terms of loads, but both were highly seasonal and both were long routes that used a lot of fuel.

But for that, Frontier might have stayed at both BDL and JAX. PBI always had a question mark over it.

Like you, I would put a question mark over DEN-BDL and not just because of Southwest. BDL seems to me to be an ideal destination from the MKE hub.

I would rather see more frequency or bigger aircraft MKE-BDL, but - they haven't asked me.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
I would rather see more frequency or bigger aircraft MKE-BDL, but - they haven't asked me.

Lets see if they can support the 2x CRJs that got the ax a couple years ago first....



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 3143 times:
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Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 10):
Lets see if they can support the 2x CRJs that got the ax a couple years ago first....

I think it will unquestionably stay at 2 x ERJ for the winter. I can't think it will be more than that - a winter start coupled with the fleet situation at Frontier.

But I live in hope and given the two alternatives - more, bigger MKE or the long, competitive DEN-BDL - I'd go for MKE.

There is always the third alternative - that the station is a dog for them and they drop it, but at least on present bookings I'm told that doesn't seem likely.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
But I live in hope and given the two alternatives - more, bigger MKE or the long, competitive DEN-BDL - I'd go for MKE.

There is always the third alternative - that the station is a dog for them and they drop it, but at least on present bookings I'm told that doesn't seem likely.

Seasonal 3rd MKE or a seasonal larger MKE (and im calling an E170 "larger") will come long before a year round of either of the sort.

Good to see the F9 kool aid being served in MKE now too....



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
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Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 12):
Seasonal 3rd MKE or a seasonal larger MKE (and im calling an E170 "larger") will come long before a year round of either of the sort.

I'd call the E170 larger, too. And since the route is starting in winter, how is it seasonal?

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 12):
Good to see the F9 kool aid being served in MKE now too....

Sorry, I don't understand that.   

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9235 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 11):
at least on present bookings I'm told that doesn't seem likely.

yes, i've heard 'through the grapevine' they're doing pretty good on advance bookings and there's a lot of days right out of the gate they're sending out pretty good loads.

some of the 'good fares' are also hard to find here and there - on "that age old assumption" alone - they're doing pretty good on sundays and thursdays!

Frontier's also making a media push in the market - i can tell you first hand, they're getting a lot of clicks. they'll also be getting some good press coverage on Monday.

my question is - are they doing their own ticketing and check in or will they be set up with US Airways since they are handling their gatework?



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Hartford historically boarded in the range of 400 passengers per week to MKE, both when it was 2x/day DC9 and when it was 3x/day FRJ. In 2007 when the market switched to CRJ, that increased to as high at 850+ per week in peak months.

Of course this doesn't tell us about fare or traffic composition, with but the current schedule of 600 seats per week to fill it shouldn't be terribly difficult to achieve a respectable load factor. That's not a prediction or profit or loss, but the basic issue of selling seats shouldn't be too hard. BDL-MKE is somewhat of a known entity.


User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9235 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 15):

if they can offer the 'right fare' and the 'right timed' connections, they should be able to make Milwaukee work. lots of online comments after the announcement they were coming to town was made that there's an alternative to having to fly to Chicago or Newark to make a connection to the west coast.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 16):
if they can offer the 'right fare' and the 'right timed' connections, they should be able to make Milwaukee work. lots of online comments after the announcement they were coming to town was made that there's an alternative to having to fly to Chicago or Newark to make a connection to the west coast.

There are two ways they could address the Hartford market:

(1) RJ's which focus largely on higher-fare local traffic, but have higher costs

(2) Larger aircraft with lower costs and support lower fares (both local and connecting), but have a lot more seats to fill


The initial BDL service is obviously strategy (1), and that is a fairly "safe" option. If BDL shows good demand and potential, then moving toward (2) could be a reasonable option, but things don't operate in a vacuum. There are limits on resources, and if they eventually choose to allocate larger aircraft to BDL-MKE that takes it away from a different market. So it's not good enough to say that BDL-MKE would succeed if upgraded to the E170. It also has to be a better use of the limited E170 fleet than other alternatives. Just one small example is EWR-MKE which is also down to 2x/day RJ. If (in an obviously simplified example) they have the choice of upgrading BDL or EWR to an E-jet, even if BDL is worthy it could go to EWR if that is a "better" choice for various reasons.

The other thing is that Frontier has two hubs (plus a focus city at MCI). If Hartford shows good potential for price-stimulated traffic to Omaha, Dallas, Madison, Minneapolis, etc, then choosing MKE for increased capacity makes sense. If instead the best potential seems to be Denver and west, it might make more sense to add a BDL-DEN flight and keep BDL-MKE on the RJ for primarily-local traffic.

Ovbiously this is putting the cart before the horse, as BDL-MKE is just restarting. But the differing costs of the available aircraft (RJ versus Ejet versus Airbus) mean that if someday there are larger aircraft introduced to the market, it's probably as much about changing the mission at BDL as simply reacting to increase demand to Milwaukee.


User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9235 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 17):

one thing i have noticed in Frontier's advertisements, is when they 'rattle off' sample airfares to attract business, only certain cities have been listed over and over again.

those being

Appleton
Branson
Des Moines
Grand Rapids
Green Bay
Indianapolis
Madison
Milwaukee
Omaha
Seattle


i've noticed they've never mentioned a number of other cities .. Denver, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, St Louis, San Francisco, San Diego, etc. etc.

connections and flights are available but i can see them avoiding these cities and preferring to keep the income from going to other high-competition routes.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 18):
one thing i have noticed in Frontier's advertisements, is when they 'rattle off' sample airfares to attract business, only certain cities have been listed over and over again.

those being

Appleton
Branson
Des Moines
Grand Rapids
Green Bay
Indianapolis
Madison
Milwaukee
Omaha
Seattle

In PIT, we see bags going to all these places constantly, minus Branson, of course. F9's fares are incedibly cheap.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently onlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9235 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

do they serve up the cookies on the ERJ flights or not so much


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2818 posts, RR: 30
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Yup, but the ERJ's don't have ovens so they are not warmed. I don't mind the cold ones but some people are downright hostile toward them.

User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2297 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 21):
Yup, but the ERJ's don't have ovens so they are not warmed. I don't mind the cold ones but some people are downright hostile toward them.

Correct, although the cookies are only served on flights after 10am. People would fly us at 6am and ask about the cookies all the time.  

Heard plenty of Republic crews complain about the cookies, though. Especially right after I started last November, not so much now.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24638 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2289 times:
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Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 22):
Correct, although the cookies are only served on flights after 10am. People would fly us at 6am and ask about the cookies all the time.

I heard rumors they are introducing an oatmeal cookie for the pre-10 am flights. I guess that hasn't happened yet.

As to the regular cookies, it amuses me that anyone complains because an airline is giving them something for free.

Oh, well.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1531 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
As to the regular cookies, it amuses me that anyone complains because an airline is giving them something for free.

Same with the food...

If there's no food, people complain. If there is food they complain about the quality of the food. Now that they have to buy the food they complain about that. Sadly, many people on this planet just love to complain.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
25 knope2001 : LOL...very true. But those cookies have an iconic status, and it goes beyond simply what is rational. It reminds me somewhat of the can-versus-cup of
26 mariner : I understand the iconic status. There was an article in the Journal-Sentinel about the integration of the credit cards and several of the comments we
27 Post contains links knope2001 : For what it's worth, a recent tweet by Midwest responding to a question indicates the warmed cookies are in the cards: "will reintroduce baked on boar
28 Post contains links YXwatcherMKE : [quote=knope2001,reply=27]For what it's worth, a recent tweet by Midwest responding to a question indicates the warmed cookies are in the cards: "will
29 n7371f : Flew F9 DEN-TPA Sunday and no cookies or mention of them. Flight left DEN @ 10:45. Crew did get good use of forward ovens heating their meals & th
30 YXwatcherMKE : Not even a comment by any of the passengers?
31 n7371f : Not around me. But I was also pretty tuned into the NFL Red Zone channel. Udi's salad was good.[Edited 2010-09-26 18:28:47]
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