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Delta CEO On Narrow Body Fleet  
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 31699 times:

In a new Flightglobal interview Delta CEO Anderson makes clear NB replacement is on the agenda first.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ef-executive-richard-anderson.html

Delta needs to revamp its narrowbody fleet before turning to widebody replacements.

"We really need clear guidance from the manufacturers about what their intentions are in terms of innovation," Anderson says. He sees opportunities for both re-engined narrowbodies and a clean-sheet design. And while Anderson believes the "next-generation narrowbody needs to be developed", the only way to deliver 15-20% fuel efficiency improvements during the next five years is via re-engining.

The US carrier is also monitoring development of Bombardier's CSeries. Anderson says the airframer is "pretty far down the road in their new narrowbody platform, which once again shows - at least from what we read - an airplane that has substantially better fuel efficiency than the existing single-aisle airplanes in service today".


Delta already has significant Boeing 737NG (81) and Airbus A320 (96) fleets. Then they have no less then 108 757s, 63 MD88 and 53 DC9s, that are probably up for replacement first. The 757-200 fleet have some pretty old frames (>17 yrs average). The supply of MD90s is a nice opportunity but limited in numbers.
http://www.delta.com/about_delta/cor.../delta_stats_facts/aircraft_fleet/

I guess it will up for the A320 NEO, CS300 and 737NG+.

I could be wrong but listening to Anderson ("He sees opportunities for both re-engined narrowbodies and a clean-sheet design.) I think Boeing needs to pay attention here. No doubt the Bombardier and Airbus NEO sales teams are hanging out at Atlanta for months already.


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[Edited 2010-09-22 23:10:51 by ManuCH]

158 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 31585 times:

Anyone know if they prefer their 73NGs or 320s?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 31447 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Anyone know if they prefer their 73NGs or 320s?

LOL As if you had to ask.  

Whatever they order will be to replace their A319 and 20 fleet and the MD80-series - the new Boeing NB in its baseline form.

They'll also pick up whatever the new Boeing NB is in its longer and higher-capacity form to start taking chunks out of their 757 fleet.

I just cannot envisage DL ever ordering another Airbus. Not when Boeing is in the race and will have a very good product. If they were in the slightest bit interested in buying Airbus they'd have got a load of latest-spec/MTOW A321s with the sharklets by now, but they arent. The fanboys can say what they like - it will be a very cold day with a chance of snow in hell, the day DL buy an Airbus.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31311 times:

The title and quoted part of this thread only refers to a small portion of the article in the link. It is an interview with Richard Anderson that touches on quite a few topics, including the economic downturn, the merger with NW, the 787, Skyteam, and the changing landscape of alliances and mergers.

The narrowbody replacement is just a small portion of the overall interview and really doesn't say anything that most people didn't already know.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Anyone know if they prefer their 73NGs or 320s?

I can predict where this debate is going to go.......

I guarentee no one on here really knows with certainty and it is going to devolve into a debate about insignificant items such as cabin width, PTVs, and how the airline has fitted the interiors.

Then someone will chime in about operating costs, then there will be more speculation regarding future orders, and I'm sure the gentlemen's agreement will come up. Then there will be those who claim RA is a big fan of the Airbus......

The point is DL is going to be evaluating all of the models that is going to be in the marketplace in the next few years and that the decision is ultimately going to depend on what is going to be available in the near future and/or entering service.
The decision isn't so much on what is better and/or needed of the current 737NG and A319/A320 family, but what will be available from Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer for their new narrowbody of choice for the next 5-15 years.

Anyone that thinks that DL is clearly sold on going with the 737NG as its go-forward narrowbody aircraft is not looking at the bigger picture.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31250 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
I can predict where this debate is going to go.......

Sure, but I'm less interested in future orders than rumors as to what DL thinks of its various narrowbody fleets now that they have so many under one roof. I have a hunch but I'll keep it to myself god forbid someone think I'm pro X or anti Y.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31176 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
If they were in the slightest bit interested in buying Airbus they'd have got a load of latest-spec/MTOW A321s with the sharklets by now, but they arent. The fanboys can say what they like - it will be a very cold day with a chance of snow in hell, the day DL buy an Airbus.

Why?

They don't need the A321 now...... and DL's priority at this moment isn't on replacing the narrowbody fleet, but it will quickly become that in the next 5 years.

This isn't about what they need now, this is about what they need in the future. DL wants to know what the future product lines are going to look like for all before making a decision. This isn't about just choosing what is in production today. The point of the narrowbody replacement is going to be to get more efficient and cost-effective aircraft. Margins are so small and the domestic market is so competitive that significant improvement in operating costs could have a huge impact on margins.

If DL wasn't looking for operating cost improvements, they'd just load up on 737NGs and more 2nd hand aircraft and call it a day. The fact is all of their competitors are looking a replacing a huge portion of their narrowbody fleets over the next 10-15 years too.

This is a hugely important business decision and DL is going to be looking very closely and the products from all of the manufacturers and see what type of agreements can be made.

It is also very plausable, that DL could split orders amongst several manufacturers. The narrowbody replacement over time is so huge it may make sense to go will different models, similar to how they have both the CR9 and the E75. The fleet sizes could be big enough to justify a split fleet, plus it will depend on the manufacturer's production schedule, order backlog, and ability to deliver a new product on-schedule.

Time will tell, none of us truly know the answer and neither does DL.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31127 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
If they were in the slightest bit interested in buying Airbus they'd have got a load of latest-spec/MTOW A321s with the sharklets by now, but they arent.

Why? These are not even available and AFAIK only Finnair has ordered them (only recently at that).

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Whatever they order will be to replace their A319 and 20 fleet and the MD80-series - the new Boeing NB in its baseline form.

I'd guess the first would be the DC9 and MD80 (and the older 757's). Only later will the a32X and 737 fleet come into focus. for replacement.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
I just cannot envisage DL ever ordering another Airbus.

Is this really you Chris or has somebody hacked your account. Your response seems so out of character...   



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31068 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
I can predict where this debate is going to go.......

Sure, but I'm less interested in future orders than rumors as to what DL thinks of its various narrowbody fleets now that they have so many under one roof. I have a hunch but I'll keep it to myself god forbid someone think I'm pro X or anti Y.

The answer of what DL prefers is going to vary so much by each internal group.... I'm sure there is no definitive agreement between finance, route planning, marketing, maintenance, pilots, inflight, executive leadership, etc.

It really doesn't matter what DL prefers at this point, the Airbus and Boeing fleets are so large, relatively young, and make up such a large portion of the domestic fleet that they pretty much have to operate what they got. The cost of replacement at this point is so high, so absurd, and doesn't make any business sense it really doesn't matter what is truly preferred since there is no better, cost-effective alternative at this point than to fly both fleets.

Yes, it has been stated that the economics on the A319 were challenging, hence why DL is in the process of removing a row of F and replacing with with a row of Y. Whether this changes the economics much is debatable, but it brings it more in line with the 73Ws and the configuration of their competitors' A319s.

[Edited 2010-09-21 07:33:12]

User currently offlinerampguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31009 times:

It was mentioned that DL has 63 MD88's. I thought they had way more than that, more like 120 MD88's.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6649 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 31021 times:

Keep in mind that DL has a payscale for the 739(ER) despite not operating the type. No such payscale has been negotiated for the A321, neither as part of the A319/A320 payscale or as its own tier.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15839 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30980 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):

Basically the only thing he's decided is that he hasn't decided anything.

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
He sees opportunities for both re-engined narrowbodies and a clean-sheet design.

That's a vote of confidence for re-engining that few airlines and lessors haven't given, at least publicly. This probably has bigger implications for Airbus than Boeing, since customers seem to have been generally cool to the idea of re-engining.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15839 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30938 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
the Airbus and Boeing fleets are so large, relatively young, and make up such a large portion of the domestic fleet that they pretty much have to operate what they got.

And furthermore, commonality makes little difference at this point.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
No such payscale has been negotiated for the A321, neither as part of the A319/A320 payscale or as its own tier.

That's probably a formality. If Delta wants A321s, they will get A321s and I doubt the pilots will have a problem with it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30878 times:

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Delta already has significant Boeing 737NG (81) and Airbus A320 (96) fleets. Then they have no less then 108 757s, 63 MD88 and 53 DC9s, that are probably up for replacement first. The 757-200 fleet have some pretty old frames (>17 yrs average). The supply of MD90s is a nice opportunity but limited in numbers.

The numbers you quote here are the owned airframes. There are an additional 75 757s that are leased and 54 leased MD-88s. Also 30 more leased A319/A320s. Those would all factor into the fleet replacement calculations.

From your referenced page, I see Delta is still selling off 738s as they are delivered. I wonder how many are still on order and if Delta plans to take delivery of any of them.

David

[Edited 2010-09-21 07:48:49]

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30852 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
If they were in the slightest bit interested in buying Airbus they'd have got a load of latest-spec/MTOW A321s with the sharklets by now, but they arent.

Why? These are not even available and AFAIK only Finnair has ordered them (only recently at that).

My reading of it was that if DL need something in the 752's size/capacity bracket, with true transcon range and efficiency advantages over the 739ER, then the A321 with sharklets is the only game in town, because nothing Embraer, Bombardier, Sukhoi or Airbus have in the pipeline is going to be big enough. Thus, if they havent ordered the A321 with sharklets then logic dictates they are waiting for the competing Boeing, which...

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Whatever they order will be to replace their A319 and 20 fleet and the MD80-series - the new Boeing NB in its baseline form.

I'd guess the first would be the DC9 and MD80 (and the older 757's). Only later will the a32X and 737 fleet come into focus. for replacement.

...i think gives a pretty compelling clue into where they are leaning for the DC9, MD80 and A320 replacements. Some of the NW A320s are pretty old and are not able to soldier on for as long as the venerable McD birds. The 737 fleets are by and large much newer and they wont be having to get rid of their 73G and 738 fleets for a long time yet.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
I just cannot envisage DL ever ordering another Airbus.

Is this really you Chris or has somebody hacked your account. Your response seems so out of character...

No mate   it is just little old me. I'm just realistic enough (unlike some of my fellow Europeans) to know when Airbus is not the first choice. Just because I like them doesnt mean I have to cheerlead everything they do, and put forward why i think they should win every competition they enter. Sometimes they are not at the races and this is one of those times.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30762 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
The answer of what DL prefers is going to vary so much by each internal group.... I'm sure there is no definitive agreement between finance, route planning, marketing, maintenance, pilots, inflight, executive leadership, etc.

Let me narrow it down; I only care about the cost perspective. Everything else is secondary.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30768 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Keep in mind that DL has a payscale for the 739(ER) despite not operating the type. No such payscale has been negotiated for the A321, neither as part of the A319/A320 payscale or as its own tier.

Will people please stop bringing up the fact of what is or is not in the Pilot CBA for payscales as a justification for or against future fleet types. This comes up in every future order speculation thread and has zero merit.

The only worse case for an argument is speculating on future orders based on the aircraft types marked on J-lines at ATL.

When the time comes the unions will negotiate a payscale, likely even before the order is places. The pilot contract will likely be up for renewal before DL makes a future narrowbody decision. J lines can be painted in plenty of time too.......

[Edited 2010-09-21 07:55:45]

User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 583 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30683 times:
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Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
My reading of it was that if DL need something in the 752's size/capacity bracket, with true transcon range and efficiency advantages over the 739ER, then the A321 with sharklets is the only game in town, because nothing Embraer, Bombardier, Sukhoi or Airbus have in the pipeline is going to be big enough. Thus, if they havent ordered the A321 with sharklets then logic dictates they are waiting for the competing Boeing, which...

Your statement pivots around the word "if."

Consider the possibility that there is no great immediate urgency to place an order because the oldest remaining 757s will keep flying for several years before they start to trickle out of the fleet, and the newer 757s will be around for many more years to come.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7771 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 30669 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
My reading of it was that if DL need something in the 752's size/capacity bracket, with true transcon range and efficiency advantages over the 739ER, then the A321 with sharklets is the only game in town, because nothing Embraer, Bombardier, Sukhoi or Airbus have in the pipeline is going to be big enough. Thus, if they havent ordered the A321 with sharklets then logic dictates they are waiting for the competing Boeing, which...

DL has no immediate need to get any more 757-sized aircraft, hence why they have no ordered any new, expensive frames from either manufacturer at this time.

DL stated earlier this year, no new aircraft orders for 5 years.

They are getting those fire-sale MD-90s on the cheap to offset capacity lost from the DC-9-30/40 retirement and the reduction of 50 seat RJs.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Let me narrow it down; I only care about the cost perspective. Everything else is secondary.

Well the A319 is higher CASM than the A320
The 73W is higher CASM than the 738. The 73W is a small subfleet though.

As long as RASM is greater than CASM at this point....


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 30528 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Well the A319 is higher CASM than the A320
The 73W is higher CASM than the 738. The 73W is a small subfleet though.

Ya don't say! What about 73G v 319 and 738 v 320?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 30421 times:

Quoting rampguy (Reply 8):
It was mentioned that DL has 63 MD88's. I thought they had way more than that, more like 120 MD88's.
Quoting diverdave (Reply 12):
The numbers you quote here are the owned airframes. There are an additional 75 757s that are leased and 54 leased MD-88s. Also 30 more leased A319/A320s. Those would all factor into the fleet replacement calculations.

Okay, 63 + 54 = 117, so that's around 120 MD-88s. Are all these in active service? I seem to recall seeing photos of several DL MD-88s parked at desert aircraft boneyards... are those in storage or are they retired airframes that haven't been broken up yet (or at the time the photos were taken)?



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 30090 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
Thus, if they havent ordered the A321 with sharklets then logic dictates they are waiting for the competing Boeing, which...

Sure, but so far they were not ordering anything.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
Some of the NW A320s are pretty old and are not able to soldier on for as long as the venerable McD birds.

They indeed have some of the oldest a320's out there...

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
No mate it is just little old me.

Good to know!!  
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 13):
I'm just realistic enough (unlike some of my fellow Europeans) to know when Airbus is not the first choice.

I assume that the a320NEO would tip this in Airbus' favour though. Would the sharklets be enough? I am very curious to see how this plays out, but I fear it may be a while before we know more (before the order is finally placed).



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5312 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 29764 times:

One thing to remember is that Delta has a long-term deal with Boeing, as do AA and CO (soon to be UA). Not that DL is obligated to buy Boeing, but it does have a contract that gives Delta favorable costs and delivery dates.

You have to figure that between Delta, American, and Southwest, Boeing is hearing a lot from 3 of its best customers on the need to start work on more efficient narrowbody aircraft.

In the case of AA and DL, Boeing is probably hearing that besides replacing aircraft in the 125 to 150 seat range (larger DC-9s, MD-80s, and eventually A319s/A320s), they will want to replace aircraft in the 180 to 200 seat range, namely the 757. And they probably want some commonality throughout the next generation narrowbody fleet, especially in terms of crew scheduling and training.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7565 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 29745 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LOL As if you had to ask.

Whatever they order will be to replace their A319 and 20 fleet and the MD80-series - the new Boeing NB in its baseline form.

Actually Delta is very happy with the Airbus fleet especially the A319's.

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Delta already has significant Boeing 737NG (81) and Airbus A320 (96) fleets. Then they have no less then 108 757s, 63 MD88 and 53 DC9s, that are probably up for replacement first. The 757-200 fleet have some pretty old frames (>17 yrs average). The supply of MD90s is a nice opportunity but limited in numbers.

Uh what?

The airbus fleet is at 126

MD-88/90's are at 134

752+753 is at 183

Finally the current DC-9 fleet is at 40



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 29691 times:

A nice quote.

Quote:
"I think Boeing has actually done a pretty remarkable job on the 787. When you look at what that airplane was originally designed to do, it is a real step change," he says.

Seems happy with the current longhaul fleet.

Quote:
Explaining Delta's widebody strategy, he stresses the carrier has 167 transoceanic aircraft with an average age of 11 years, including 10 777-200LRs with more range than the 787. Overall Delta has about 50 aircraft capable of operating 12 hours or longer and, citing Delta's $1 billion investment into its widebody fleet to overhaul the interiors with lie-flat seats, in-seat power and individual in-flight entertainment, Anderson simply says: "We're making the right investments. We have the right fleet."

I think his statement about the NB replacement is actually one of the less interesting aspects of this article.

Quote:
Now that the bulk of the integration of Northwest is complete, is Delta finished for the time being in participating in industry consolidation? Delta's chief offers a smile and says: "I wouldn't comment on that."


User currently offlinetistpaa727 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 331 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 29692 times:
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First, thank you Keesje for sharing the story.

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
He sees opportunities for both re-engined narrowbodies and a clean-sheet design

I don't think Anderson has a choice here...he has to say he sees merit in both options otherwise he is showing his hand. If CHRISBA777ER is correct, Anderson has to keep Boeing somewhat honest even though he knows he is going to get a good price from them. Additionally, shareholders would likely frown upon him stating he wasn't open to options.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Anyone know if they prefer their 73NGs or 320s?

I am quite curious about this as well. Not from a fanboy perspective, just an airplane enthusiast and a frequent flier of DL.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
The answer of what DL prefers is going to vary so much by each internal group

Very true, but what would be most interesting is what the C-suite thinks. In the end, that is what matters.



Don't sweat the little things.
25 seabosdca : They will need something within a few years at most to replace the oldest 757s. The aircraft are substantially over 40,000 cycles, and there is a har
26 BMI727 : It preserves some of the original Fat Albert proportions.
27 goldenstate : I have to say, after rereading the article, RA's comment on the 787 was the part I found most interesting. A very noticeable change in tone from what
28 PSU.DTW.SCE : There is no legally-binding agreement with Boeing. The "World's Largest Airlines (for the next few days)" is going to be able to get favorable costs
29 BMI727 : Actually there is. The portion of the agreement which states what terms and prices the airline is entitled to is intact. Boeing made a second agreeme
30 SchorschNG : Talking about the B757 and a possible NB-replacement by Boeing: the Boeing NB (let's call it Y1 for convenience) will have to have some capacity. Let'
31 Post contains images keesje : You are right. I knew the rough numbers but blindly copied delta.com.. Does he say he doesn't see opportunities for the 737NG+ at Delta? Thats why I
32 ikramerica : Does Airbus not need to pay attention, Keesje? Seriously, what's with the thread title here? Are you implying that Boeing hasn't been "hanging out" in
33 1337Delta764 : Enough with that myth Keesje, Richard Anderson does NOT have total say in fleet decisions. All of DL's current fleet planners are PMDL, not PMNW. As a
34 BMI727 : That deal (at least the exclusivity part of it) went into the shredder in the late 1990s. But, in the intervening decade none of the signatories have
35 goldenstate : Absolutely and completely not true.
36 ImperialEagle : Time changes everything----- and it has been a long time since the -310 debacle. Kind of like never saying "never".
37 laca773 : There's no doubt DL needs a 100 seat a/c. They also have a pay scale for the E90/95 series. This would be a great a/c for them to at least lease for f
38 KingAir200 : You keep saying that and the rest of us keep waiting for some proof from you on it. How is it that you know?
39 PSU.DTW.SCE : No leasing agency is going to want a 5 year lease or agree to terms that are even financially reasonable for DL for new build aircraft. Even if there
40 goldenstate : There is no proof because it's not true. Times have changed, leadership has changed, the team has changed, philosophies have changed.
41 Post contains links and images keesje : For replacing the DC9's the CS300 seems to be the best replacement (30+30?). The Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies seem too big/heavy, the Embraers too s
42 OA412 : I don't believe that this is correct, but even if it was, so what? Just because they are PMDL people doesn't mean they will automatically order Boein
43 PlanesNTrains : Yep, it isn't the 90's anymore. Airbus and Boeing have great products that offer carriers competitive alternatives. To assume that DL will go Boeing
44 MD-90 : Some of the 763s are getting on up there in years as well.
45 ericaasen : I think splitting the fleet would be a mistake. Yeah, there is enough room for both the 737NG+ and 320NEO families and they could make them work. But
46 RoseFlyer : I will guarantee you that no 747 or DC10 with over 100,000 cycles exists. You might be confusing that with hours as some of the older 747s and DC10s
47 DALMD88 : I think we took delivery of three 738 this summer. I'm not sure but I think the sold slots are already gone and we may have three or four coming in 2
48 DocLightning : No he doesn't. But he DOES know a thing or two about what is going on at DL among those who are making those decisions. And he's one of them.
49 Post contains images ericaasen : We definitely got one of them. 3773 was at ORD a few weeks ago. It was so clean we new it had to be new and I asked the FO during his walkaround and
50 1337Delta764 : But should DL buy Airbus, they would be forefeiting their preferential pricing they would get from Boeing. I don't think Boeing would simply hand ove
51 BMI727 : Delta would not be forfeiting anything, the EU made sure of that.
52 BMI727 : Actually, once you are talking about a fleet of greater than 30 airframes or so, commonality isn't that big of a deal anymore. Plus, considering that
53 n7371f : I have never heard that from anyone in the former NW Tech areas or from DL Tech Ops. And even if this is remotely true, remember that several previou
54 n7371f : The 320's up to ship # 3250 are pretty long in the tooth for Airbus standards. You've probably heard the chatter that the 320 is a disposable aircraft
55 Post contains images lightsaber : The next DL narrowbody order will be huge. I agree with those that think DL will look at *all* the number. This is a wake up call to both Boeing and A
56 bravo1six : No airline pays list price from any OEM.
57 laca773 : What? Then why is DL pulling so many 50 seaters out of service from Comair as well as at Skywest? Have you thought that perhaps they might want and o
58 Post contains links seabosdca : 50,000 cycles is the Design Service Goal for the 757. DL can exceed this, as it turns out (so my characterization of it as a "hard limit" is wrong),
59 MD-90 : Wouldn't the A345 and A346 look nice in Delta colors?
60 PSU.DTW.SCE : One aircraft family from one particular manufacturer may not be able to cover the whole narrowbody segment. DL is looking at everything from 90/100 s
61 boilerla : Very interesting, especially when you combine this information with the new UA's fleet refreshment statements. The new UA will operate 150+ 757s, 2nd
62 BMI727 : That pales in comparison to the market to replace smaller narrowbodies. If Boeing or Airbus launched a new plane tomorrow they could have 300 orders
63 MSPNWA : They can, but the 50-seaters aren't good for the passengers or the bottom line. It's a solution only in the sense that only they can fill the needed
64 Post contains images OA412 : Any decision will be based upon economic reality and what is best for DL down the road, not upon a "gentleman's agreement" or DL's prior experience w
65 BMI727 : Only the parts that demand exclusivity from the airlines. The portions that define how many airframes the airlines can get on what schedules at what
66 mham001 : Wouldn't that be for new aircraft only? Notice the 737 is rated for 75,000 cycles.
67 SSTsomeday : I became aware of this some time ago; that Boeings are built more "stout" and have more cycles in them. But I have not been able to ascertain how tha
68 Post contains links and images keesje : Airbus aims to validate the higher 90,000FC/180,000FH ESG2 service goal for A320. http://www.asianaviation.com/article...4/Airbus-plans-A320-life-ext
69 Antoniemey : I'm sure Boeing has people in Atlanta that are keeping Delta informed of exactly what Boeing is looking at for their next AND current aircraft design
70 jimbobjoe : Which is pretty minor in comparison to the over 4000 aircraft combined backlog for 737s and A320s, not many of which are for North American carriers.
71 aerokiwi : I think the most interesting element of this is whether Delta goes for a sub-150 seater at all. If they do, then the choice is likely to be the C-Seri
72 Post contains links keesje : This seems another hard to kill a.net myth.. from reply 68. Airbus has run four major fatigue tests as part of the overall A320 aircraft programme. T
73 Post contains links and images keesje : I think US based airlines were not the launch customers for the 737, A320, CSeries, Eastern and BA shared the 757. Times have changed, "the rest of t
74 PSU.DTW.SCE : The narrowbody replacement is still about 5 years out. DL's current fleet has enough life and slack to get them until 2015 before they have to begin
75 timf : I was under the impression that the two 738s delivered in July were the final two DL had on order. They may still have some slots that they have sold
76 columba : If DL should order any new narrowbodies in the near future I believe it will be the CSeries and the A321NEO with Sharklets. DL has a huge A320 and 737
77 ckfred : keesje: You're correct that Delta isn't obligated to buy Boeing aircraft. The provision in the CO, AA, and DL contracts that made Boeing their exclusi
78 columba : NW has had a long business relationship with Airbus so there would be no blank piece of paper. Even if there is the important thing is the final resu
79 DTWPurserBoy : Remember, it was RIchard Anderson that bought all the Airbus aircraft at NW so the argument that you will never see Delta buy another Airbus airplane
80 PSU.DTW.SCE : No, no, no....... It was NOT Richard Anderson who brought all of the Airbus to NW. The history of Airbus at NW dates itself back to the mid/late 1980
81 speedygonzales : More efficient? Possibly. I guess it depends on payload and range. More capable? No. It has a slight range advantage at low payloads, but the A321 ha
82 BMI727 : I think that manufacturers should go with more variants rather than fewer in the future. With the numbers Southwest might buy, they could probably ju
83 n7371f : I disagree, respectively. The Bombardier 900's are a strategic aircraft, not just for market flying, but for pilot scope and contract issues. I don't
84 yellowtail : Will the 321NEO have the range/performance to do current routes such as EWR/JFK-LIS/TXL/ARN, CLT-DUB or some of the longer /higher altitude S. America
85 1337Delta764 : Just because DL inherited Airbus aircraft from NW doesn't automatically force them to go by the NW fleet policy. In fact, Delta can use the fact they
86 PSU.DTW.SCE : Actually I think we are in agreement here. The 50-76 seaters today are fulfilling the role of the 100 seater, because like you say a) the current 100
87 PlaneAdmirer : And who at NW ordered the 787? Does anyone else think this thread is silly? DL is going to order the best plane for its need at the best price. Boein
88 N801NW : Doug Steenland. Richard was at UnitedHealth Group when NW ordered the 787.
89 moman : Interesting, so was the MD-80/88/90 series considered a viable alternative? Yes he can. In the interest of productivity, he would likely defer to the
90 PlanesNTrains : What myth? He appears to be referring to the Design Service Goals for the A320, as outlined in reply 58. He wasn't implying that they would be fallin
91 bobnwa : I will bet that 1337Delta764 can not back up his statement with the names of the Delta fleet planners and their backgrounds that shows ALL are fron P
92 1337Delta764 : Since when? Isn't that called fascism? I am pretty sure that if a CEO makes decisions that are not approved by any other part of the company, that pa
93 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps they CAN call for an ouster, but that implies that he made the wrong decision. Look, I'm not going to argue that he should make these decisio
94 SSTsomeday : Oops - I meant "geared" engines. Duh - it was late... I should have added "range" I see your point, of course, on shorter routes. Especially since ai
95 Moman : No, there is different between government and corporate America. The CEO has full authority for the company, and by such he is a direct supervisor of
96 goldenstate : That's not how things work in real life. Employees do not go around the CEO's back to the Board just because they didn't like a decision that was mad
97 OA412 : When a government is run that way it is, but DL is not a government entity. A lot of people seem to believe that the laws that apply to government al
98 mariner : And what happens if fleet planning votes for one aircraft and the finance department says they can get a better deal on another, similar aircraft? So
99 Post contains links keesje : Probably marginal TATL range, not TXL e.g. Luckely not all the 757s are old. Delta could e.g. replace the high cycle >20 years airframe. The aircr
100 PITingres : Well, seeing as how that was adjudged (correctly IMHO) as pilot error, I doubt that it's relevant to AA's future buying plans. I will agree that Airb
101 bobnwa : Have droped the idea that none of the Delta fleet planners are ex NW?
102 planemaker : Keesje, you repeat that statement in just about every thread and it is basically meaningless... especially in this thread. Why don't you instead tell
103 cslusarc : I would expect the 321NEO to fly between the US West Coast and Hawaii without the need for as many planned refueling stop detours as the 737NG.
104 ikramerica : Especially for narrowbodies. It's mostly mail and urgent courier deliveries. The ability to take an LD3 from a widebody and transfer it directly to a
105 BMI727 : AA seemed to disagree. It's always been that way, which is why they signed the deal with Boeing in the mid 1990s.
106 PSU.DTW.SCE : The history of the A320, and Airbus at NW is an interesting story. At that time, Airbus was desperate to break into the North American market and was
107 keesje : Planemaker I never said / suggested that. The new NB will claim part of the market segment A & B used to split. Somehow it doesn't seem to stick
108 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure what your point is, Keesje. You said that the Airbus' existing shortfall in hours compared to the 737 was "an a.net myth". How is that a
109 Post contains links keesje : It more about also here surfacing small talk Airbus aircraft somehow are inferior, disposable. Always unfounded and always by the same member group.
110 Antoniemey : And at the current certification, flying the same number of flights per day as its closest competitor, an A320 isn't going to last as long. That does
111 Post contains links keesje : The A320 will last longer. ESG1 with 60000 FC/ 120000 FH will be the new Limit of Validity (LoV) for the A320. ESG2 will be 90000 FC and 180000 FH. h
112 planemaker : The only thing that is odd is that you fail to grasp market reality after many on this, and other sites, have pointed out that the C919 and MS21 will
113 RoseFlyer : I do not agree that just because the maintenance program is being extended means that Airbus will last longer. There is a difference between extendin
114 mayor : Most cargo that is hauled nowadays is containerized or palletized and not usually coming from alot of the smaller spoke cities. Most of the cargo is
115 lucky777 : I'm positive an LD3, or for that matter an LD2 WILL NOT fit on an A320. There is no way the cargo hold is tall enough.
116 Post contains links mayor : According to this, on A.net, it will take 7 LD-3s: http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=23 "Seven LD-3 derived LD3-46 containers or p
117 Viscount724 : LH was the launch customer for the 737-100 and UA, 2 months later, for the much more successful 737-200..UA took delivery of the first 737-200 one da
118 n7371f : Back in the late 90's, it was Mickey Foret who was more single handidly responsible for the aircraft purchases than anyone else. This was especially
119 Post contains links CALPSAFltSkeds : Read this form another thread. The LD3-45 or LD3-46 means the height is 45 or 46 inches vs. the widebody 64 inches. Quite a difference. The A320 was
120 Post contains images SSTsomeday : So do I. I think an A/C that ameliorates positive control to a considerable extent should not allow more pressure to be applied to a control surface
121 mayor : Ok....I'll buy that, but putting any kind of containers on a narrowbody is a tremendous waste of space compared to bulk loading the a/c. Even if they
122 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : That is a messy sentence to say the least. But to the point, I'm not sure what your personal feelings about the A320 have to do with what Antoniemay
123 Post contains images keesje : No Dave, I pointed out the myth, linked where it surfaced in this thread and else where. Then I showed the FC/FH limitations that serve as a basis fo
124 Post contains links PlanesNTrains : Keesje, according to the link you provided, nothing has been implemented yet from what I can tell. A couple of quotes from the article that you linke
125 Post contains images jimbobjoe : Correct, though for the 737 and 757, at least, they were expecting major US purchasing, which is exactly what happened. The A320 was hoping for major
126 Revelation : Yep, that's the true result of the 787 debacle. Had 787 had its EIS in May 2008 as originally planned, engineers would be free to do the Y1 and the c
127 BMI727 : That angle might well be purely academic, since Boeing and even customers seem to have been of the mindset that during that period the technology to
128 Revelation : So, ironically, A320 NEO might be accelerating the development of the engines Boeing needs for the Y1 program.
129 BMI727 : Perhaps, but I always got the impression that the needed technology had more to do with weight, materials, and manufacturing more than propulsion, bu
130 compensateme : Are you really naïve enough to believe that Airbus is incapable of offering Delta preferential pricing and delivery slots that would equal, or excee
131 laca773 : Does anyone know if MX's 717s are available for purchase or lease? These birds could be a good replacement for the old D9S girls.
132 ericaasen : I thought I saw somewhere that NW was interested in the 717 but program delays caused them to change their minds.
133 BMI727 : Interesting thought, but I doubt it will happen. First, the price would have to be very nice. Secondly, there wouldn't be commonality with the rest o
134 compensateme : NW commited to its DC-9 flleet, spending millions per frame to install hush kits and new, 717-style, interiors, rather than invest in new aircraft. T
135 MNMncrcnwjr : I do wish that when the 88's re-config occurs that DL refit the interiors to the ones (or better ) than what are in the DC9-50's today... The overhea
136 Post contains links keesje : “There is constantly innovation in this industry, and we need that innovation. So we think the manufacturers need to re-engine these airplanes and g
137 BMI727 : Nobody does. But they're going to have to. That puts him in a pretty small group. Of all the airlines and lessors that have weighed in, this is the m
138 keesje : Don't forget Easy, AF/KLM and some others that put pressure on both A & B. That's been the major concern for more then 10 years. Airbus has been
139 BMI727 : Not exactly. Well, Delta seems less than convinced at this point.
140 SEPilot : Because Boeing kept them happy. The 737 is actually lighter than the equivalent A32x. Fuel consumption, from what I have gathered, is very close to e
141 Post contains links keesje : There is 1 big Asian LCC that accounts for a (very) big majority of the backlog. Apart from it didn't catch on. Many 737NG operators ordered A321s af
142 BMI727 : Why is that bad? I don't see Boeing complaining. And I don't see Airbus complaining about having Emirates accounting for about half of the A380 backl
143 DTWPurserBoy : The 737 is still just a rewarmed 1963 design. Boeing has updated the engines, cockpit and interiors but the airframe itself is essentially the same. B
144 Post contains links keesje : 10-14% only with a new wing? I never heard this before. Anderson explicitly, publicly saying he will buy both Airbus and Boeing aircraft obviously sh
145 Post contains links BMI727 : That's funny, considering you are the one that posted it. Air France Wants More Then New Engine On A320 NEO (by keesje Jun 30 2010 in Civil Aviation)
146 keesje : That was "direct exploitation costs". Claims have been made on sfc reduction, doc goes much further. Delta has been buying few aircraft since the mer
147 SEPilot : Just because the 737 is a warmed over 1963 design does not of itself mean that they can build a new model that is sufficiently better to warrant the
148 BMI727 : So you admit that they have been an opportunistic purchaser for some time, despite not buying any Airbus lately? And the other airlines that made the
149 mayor : You can hardly make the argument that DL has been an enthusiastic buyer of Airbus a/c by using NW's figures, especially in the past. The only Airbus
150 Post contains images keesje : The NWAC part of Delta / CEO has. Thats why they have lots of A320s/A330s in the fleet.
151 BMI727 : And the Delta portion as well, ever since the EU struck down the exclusivity deal with Boeing. But that is still beside the fact of how you can decla
152 Post contains links Revelation : I think you left out one or two minor details: Ref: http://www.b737.org.uk/737ng.htm
153 mayor : And what Airbus a/c has DL (pre-merger) ordered or bought since the mid 90s? Even after the EU struck down the deal, DL still did not buy any Airbus
154 BMI727 : ...but not because of any exclusivity agreement.
155 mayor : No, but it might as well have been. I was still working there, then and the general feeling was having the exclusivity agreement struck down, really
156 BMI727 : But then there is the reason that Delta made the deal in the first place.
157 Post contains links and images keesje : I think we drifted away a bit, Anderson says he needs new NB aircraft first he won't wait for an all new NB design he wants re-engined aircraft for f
158 BMI727 : That puts Anderson in a pretty small group. If Delta is waiting with a 100+ plane order for a new design, I don't think you can count that as being b
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