Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
LH Group To Order 48 New Planes (A330/A32X/E195)  
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6716 posts, RR: 77
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 19371 times:

The Supervisory Board of Deutsche Lufthansa AG approved the order of 48 new aircraft for delivery from 2012. According to a press release, the planned order includes three Airbus A330-300 and twenty Airbus A320 family aircraft for Lufthansa, five Airbus A330-300, two Airbus A321 and two Airbus A320 for Swiss, eight new Airbus A319 for Germanwings and eight new Embraer 195 aircraft for Lufthansa Regional.

Source:
http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-...010/september/22/article/1779.html


PH


Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18982 times:

I was just posting an extensive reply in the other thread and suddenly it's gone. Damn these double topics!!!

Anyway, IIRC LX still has 5 a332's, so I assume that these a333's will mean the replacement of the a332's. This would make sense also from an engine perspective (all Trents then, now the a332's have PW).

The a320's for LH are to start the 737 replacement, right? This was delayed at the start of the downturn, I suppose they felt now was the right time for the order.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18756 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
Anyway, IIRC LX still has 5 a332's, so I assume that these a333's will mean the replacement of the a332's. This would make sense also from an engine perspective (all Trents then, now the a332's have PW).

SWISS has 3 A332's left in the fleet of which mainly only 2 operate, all of them will leave the fleet by next spring. Don't forget, SWISS has another 2 A333's scheduled to delivery, one in december and the other one in February. Therefore those 5 A333's will be for nw routes


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8544 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18581 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Nice to see that Swiss are clearly going to continue their longhaul growth , I guess not too surprising since they made very respectable profits for the LH group. I wonder whether the new aircraft will be to increase frequencies on current routes , to add new destinations or a combination of both . By the time these aircraft are added to the fleet how will the LX longhaul fleet compare to the old SR fleet in terms of numbers and capacity?


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18439 times:

The A330 is the Energizer Bunny of the aircraft world - it just keeps selling and selling and selling.....
Pretty amazing considering it was supposed to be made obsolete by the 787 and A350


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18365 times:

Hmm,

as expected additional A333s, A32x and ERJ195s.


But unfortunately no orders to Boeing again.


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18309 times:

Low risk short term acquisitions and a clear sign the industry is recovering IMO.

User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18286 times:

Also being reported by Airbus:
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...-airbus-aircraft-worth-43-billion/


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 18215 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 2):
Therefore those 5 A333's will be for nw routes

Very good, thanks! Good to see LX keeps expanding...



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17953 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 5):
But unfortunately no orders to Boeing again.

Only because this is an order for additional aircraft that are already in the fleet. Not a fleet renewal. I am surprised that LH is rather ordering additional A330 instead of the A350 or 787.

I was also thinking that the CSeries will replace the 737 but as it seems it will be A32x and EJets.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3327 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17869 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 9):
I am surprised that LH is rather ordering additional A330 instead of the A350 or 787.

Not really, the A330 will be delivered in a couple of years, delivery date for a 787 or 350 ordered today will be many years away


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17511 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
By the time these aircraft are added to the fleet how will the LX longhaul fleet compare to the old SR fleet in terms of numbers and capacity?

By 2013, the LX longhaul fleet will indeed almost compare to that of SR, but a few units will still be missing.

SR - 2001:

20 M11
16 332
(+9 346 on order, so as to replace 9 of the 20 M11s)


LX - 2013

15 343
15 333 (+ 1 WK)
1 738 (leased from PTI) ?

Perhaps more orders will come in a not too distant future, fingers crossed.

As far as shorthaul fleet is concerned here is the comparison


SR + Old LX - 2001

9 319
20 320 (+4 ordered for LX, as a more efficient replacement for the 8 M81/82/83)
12 321

4 AR8
15 AR1
4 142 (3 leased from B5 and 1 from B5)

9 SF3
20 S20
22 ER4 (+3 on order)

1 M81 (ex 4T)
3 M82 (ex 4T
8 M83 (ex 4T)



LX - 2013 (forecast)

7 319
22 320 (+ still 1 leased from BD?)
9 321


20 AR1 (to be replaced with 30 C10)

2+4 F100 (leased from C3 and 2L)

1 S20 (leased from OD, ZRH-LUG)

Airbus and larger regional jets (BAe/Avro/F100) fleets will be in 2013 almost as big as in 2001 (setting aside the ex-4T 12 M80s, which would fly to Caucasus and were little used elsewhere). The downgrade of ZRH from 5 to 4 conecting banks is also visible here, albeit to a limited extend.

However, the smaller RJ and the Turbofans fleets are still the real casualties of the SR + Old LX ---> New LX substitution, and primarily reflect the demise of most flights operated in BSL, GVA and BRN.


Some of the ZRH routes previously operated with ER4 or AR8 have been upgauged to AR1 or even Airbus, though.

The 10 extra C10, on top of those 20 meant to replace the 20 AR1, will provide welcome extra capacity, about the same as the 22 ex-Old LX ER4.

[Edited 2010-09-22 15:48:40]

User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17171 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 2):
SWISS has 3 A332's left in the fleet of which mainly only 2 operate, all of them will leave the fleet by next spring. Don't forget, SWISS has another 2 A333's scheduled to delivery, one in december and the other one in February. Therefore those 5 A333's will be for nw routes

Couldn't LX retain 1 332, have it refurbished to the same standards as its 333s, and use it as a start-up for a new route?

Quoting 328JET (Reply 5):
But unfortunately no orders to Boeing again.

The LH group has been very committed to Airbus over the past 20yrs. Since the late-80s, LH orders for Boeing have primarily targeted the 744. Interestingly, LH has never gone for the 777, while AF and BA operate it as their flagship. Doubtless one of the very few no-777 European major, although IB and VS haven't, either.

SR from the late-80s started switching loyalties from MDD to Airbus, first for shorthaul aircrafts (order placed in October 1990), then longhaul flights in its very last years. No wonder that LX has confirmed that trend.

Quoting columba (Reply 9):
I am surprised that LH is rather ordering additional A330 instead of the A350 or 787.

The timeframe is not comparable.

LH and LX won't get any 350 until 2016 if they place orders anytime soon. The 333s are available within 2 yrs.

Perhaps LH, LX, IB, VS, and other big 340s operators could bargain from Airbus an upgrade of their current 343s (NEO + Sharklets + new interiors mainly), as a counterpart for a good 350 order  
Quoting columba (Reply 9):
I was also thinking that the CSeries will replace the 737 but as it seems it will be A32x and EJets.

CSeries of LH (not LX) are likey to replace some ofthe current CRJs.


User currently offlineprofcalvin From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15510 times:

I know this is way overdue and has probably be answered before but...other than the 332's being old and engine differences, what are swiss's reason for retiring their small 332 fleet?

Thank you for your response, and again sorry for asking a question that has probably been answered before.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15273 times:

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 12):
CSeries of LH (not LX) are likey to replace some ofthe current CRJs.

I know but I was thinking of an additional order for LH passage, that would replace the 737s. Seems now the 737s will be replaced by LH regional E190/195s and LH passage A32x.

Would be interesting to know if LH has the option to change their order into A32x NEOs and if the order consists of A321s with sharklets.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13913 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting columba (Reply 9):

I was also thinking that the CSeries will replace the 737 but as it seems it will be A32x and EJets.

The C10s ordered are planned for LX to replace their ARJ fleet. There were not any plans for LH to take any of these new birds.

Will we see LH replace OS' fleet of F70/100s with E75/90/95s or will they go with the C10 like LX?


User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13820 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 15):
Will we see LH replace OS' fleet of F70/100s with E75/90/95s or will they go with the C10 like LX?

AFAIK, OS's Fokkers won't be replaced until 2020. They just signed a contract for a life extention program.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6870 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13506 times:

Quoting profcalvin (Reply 13):
what are swiss's reason for retiring their small 332 fleet?

Firstly, it wasn't that small. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they had up to 18 at one time or another.

As to why they were replaced, I'm guessing it is because newer A330-300s could do what only the A330-200 could do when when Swiss(air) ordered them back in the 1990s. So, get shiny new A330-300s and fly more passengers to exotic places for much the same cost.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13126 times:

Was hoping the A32X's were for BMI Baby!

Their 737's are getting a little long in the tooth, and have seen better days...


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12939 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 9):
Only because this is an order for additional aircraft that are already in the fleet. Not a fleet renewal. I am surprised that LH is rather ordering additional A330 instead of the A350 or 787.

You basically answered that yourself. This is not a fleet renewal, rather just additional aircraft. And as mentioned by others, the a333's are available much earlier.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 12):
Couldn't LX retain 1 332, have it refurbished to the same standards as its 333s, and use it as a start-up for a new route?

You would have one aircraft with different engines, which would add to the maintenence costs. And the a333 carries more pax for about the same costs and as such, has lower CASM than the a332.

I wonder if even bigger aircraft are viable for LX in the (near) future, such as the a350-1000 (or heck the a346 should LH have a surplus )



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12856 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Firstly, it wasn't that small. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they had up to 18 at one time or another.

16 according to airfleets.org

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
As to why they were replaced, I'm guessing it is because newer A330-300s could do what only the A330-200 could do when when Swiss(air) ordered them back in the 1990s. So, get shiny new A330-300s and fly more passengers to exotic places for much the same cost.

A333s have 40 seats more than the A332 in LX's three-class-layout. (236 vs. 196). That is (neglecting classes) a more than 20% increase in capacity. Do they also have 20% higher costs? I doubt it. The range advantage of the A332 isn't that important, because LX can change to an A343 in case more range/payload is needed.


User currently offlineSR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12838 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 15):
The C10s ordered are planned for LX to replace their ARJ fleet. There were not any plans for LH to take any of these new birds.

There are at the LH Group 30 options for C10, besides the firm order for 30 aircrafts.

Are you sure that those 30 options would be for LX alone? If yes, it might be a bit too much, although I wouldn't complain at all personally, as that would involve a substantial increase in the current shorthaul and mediumhaul LX offer  


Strangely, yesterday's announcement does not concern howsoever SN, although this LH subsidiary has a rather ageing fleet, with quite many 737 Classic ex-TV, and more AR1 and AR8, which are already 10-15 yrs.

A 3-class European product as offered on SN would be lean in favour of some upgauges from AR1/AR8 to 319.

Renewal should start by 2015 ideally.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 19):
I wonder if even bigger aircraft are viable for LX in the (near) future, such as the a350-1000 (or heck the a346 should LH have a surplus )

351s flying under LX colours is something quite realistic by the end of this decade, as their current loadings in longhaul traffic remain high.

The case may even be quicker should LX eventually go for a Y+ cabin.

Until then, I don't think we will see some 346s transferred from LH to LX, as LH really seems to need them.

On some 333 routes, primarily ZRH-ORD and ZRH-DXB, a 2nd-daily flight would perhaps be more appropriate than an upgauge straight away to a shorter-range 351.

[Edited 2010-09-23 02:32:50]

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12837 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 14):

Would be interesting to know if LH has the option to change their order into A32x NEOs and if the order consists of A321s with sharklets.

If the A32X are from 2012-onwards it would be reasonable to assume they will be equipped with wingl...errr....sorry - sharklets  

I wouldn't count on any NEO options because this is a short-term order for quickly available a/c and this is not a fleet renewal but an expansion.

That's also why I think that the -profitable- 737 Classics will soldier on for now... I would expect LH to wait for LX to gain operational experience on the CSeries (the most "natural" replacement for the Classics) before making a replacement decision.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12685 times:

Quoting profcalvin (Reply 13):
know this is way overdue and has probably be answered before but...other than the 332's being old and engine differences, what are swiss's reason for retiring their small 332 fleet?

First of all the 332 became too small for LX to run an economical all three class fleet. With the new business class they need more space. In the 332 there would have been too little passengers. 11 A 332 were replaced by the 333.


User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 12669 times:

And a new CEO :

Sep 22, 2010
German airline Deutsche Lufthansa AG has named deputy chairman Christoph Franz as its new CEO. Franz, who managed the restructuring of Swiss Air, will succeed Wolfgang Mayrhuber. Mayrhuber, 63, will retire after more than 40 years at Lufthansa and seven years at the helm.

Lifthansa said Franz's task would be maintaining carrier's position as Europe's leading airline by passenger volume.

http://www.eturbonews.com/18672/luft...ansa-names-christoph-franz-new-ceo


25 SR4ever : Any chance we may see LX ordering some 358s, with a view to re-instating some former indirect routes such as SCL, EZE, GIG, SGN, KUL, no longer via G
26 Kappel : I was only kidding about that. LH definitely needs all their aircraft at the moment.
27 HB-IWC : I believe we will eventually see a nonstop ZRH SIN terminator added to the LX network. SR operated up to 3 weekly nonstop frequencies on the route bu
28 CHRISBA777ER : I'd have thought closer relationship with SQ on the route would be more likely. Do they codeshare?
29 Post contains images columba : Actually I did not ask a question at all, I just I replied to the statement that no Boeings were ordered. In addition to that I said that I am surpri
30 frigatebird : When SR orders A350's (it's not a matter of 'if' IMO) I expect it to be -900's. With the 332's already being too small, it's not logical to order 358
31 Post contains images SR4ever : Yes, a daily nonstop service would be the only way for LX to offer something credible on ZRH-SIN. But I don't see this coming too soon, not until the
32 Kappel : When it's time to order the next gen widebodies, I'm sure it will be a huge order by LH for LH itself and it's other airlines, such as LX. Not sure a
33 columba : I doubt that with the new CEO who isa known bean counter.......
34 Thorben : Why would they need more 747-8Is? They got 20 plus 20 options. Considering that there are very few orders from other carriers for this bird, LH might
35 Post contains images ZRH : I doubt that they will resume SIN in the next few years. It will be difficult to compete with SQ's A 380 service. At the moment they code-share with S
36 SR4ever : Frankly, I really wonder what LH will do with those 20 748s, especially as there now stands a big chance that they will go for more 388s.
37 Post contains images frigatebird : Sure. However, I expect that the difference in operating cost will be so small that most airlines will choose a 359 even if they can't always fill th
38 Thorben : There is not much space between "now" and the "very near future". I think there is a good probability LH will convert their options into firm orders.
39 Post contains images SR4ever : Agreed. Mind you, SR was eyeing an order for a few 380s 10 yrs ago, as a complement for the ordered-yet-never-delivered 9 346s. Possibly yes. More ca
40 frigatebird : Expansion. At the time LH ordered the A380, there was no need for a replacement type for the 747 - they weren't that old yet. But on some routes LH f
41 328JET : As much i would have seen a Boeing order from the Lufthansa Group, i believe with this additional 8 A330s the decision against the B787-9 is made. Aft
42 Thorben : A346: 306 seats in three classes A388: 526 seats in three classes B744: 330 seats in three classes Boeing lists the 747-8I as 467 seats in three clas
43 HB-IWC : LX is not selling many seats on that code share and one gets the impression that it is there pro forma only. LX is selling most of its SIN, Malaysia
44 zkojh : are we likley to see any order for the BD and OS part, swiss always seems to get the best deal ,
45 ZRH : That SWISS gets "the best deal" is very clear because it is highly profitable and the cash cow in the LH groupe whilst the other airlines are not (ye
46 Hirnie : LH is going to invest a lot of money in the 737s to keep them longer in the fleet. Noise shall be reduced and other things will be done to keep them
47 Someone83 : AFAIK, one of EUs requirement to LH when they acquired OS was that they can't expand until OS is profitable And not sure much will happen with SN unt
48 SR4ever : But it now seems that the 388 is more, at least in part, to act as a 744 replacement, isn't it? The most recent 333s will stay in service until 2025
49 Post contains images frigatebird : Well, LH has still one 744 in storage as a result of the GFC and has received 3 A380's, so you could argue that unless LH brings that 744 back in ser
50 CHRISBA777ER : I think the real bonanza order is just around the corner for a few major European airlines - not just LH Group. For LH Group, BAIB, AFKL and a few oth
51 Post contains images columba : LH always said that they don´t want to be dependant on one manufacturer, that is one reason why they have ordered the 747-8I. LH also said various t
52 LXA340 : I have a feeling SWISS will sooner or later refurbish it's First and Economy Cabins on the A340 fleet, probably with the arrival of the 5 additional
53 Post contains images SR4ever : Fair enough, but a mix of 789 and 359 in such mostly-Airbus fleet will have a cost in terms of commonality and flexibility. The 789 and the 359 have
54 Thorben : I believe so. LH has many routes ex-FRA that are 7,000-11,000 km long. For those they have a 211 seater (A343), a 306-seater (A346), and a 526-seater
55 RayChuang : I believe that LH's A330 planes are primarily used on medium-range high-capacity routes and longer-range "thin" routes. Here's a question I haven't he
56 columba : I think the 747-8I will be used on routes that currently see the 747-400 but that can not handle an A380. For example FRA-JFK will be an A380 and FRA
57 sandroZRH : ?! Some of our A320s are approaching 20 years of age and they are very much able to fly GPS/RNAV approaches in fully managed mode.
58 Someone83 : Wouldn't the 748i also be used on more cargo heavy routes than the A380?
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Spanair To Order 11 New Airbii posted Wed Aug 19 2009 15:17:19 by ArniePie
Synergie Group To Order 10 X A350.. posted Wed Feb 13 2008 05:28:54 by Beaucaire
Shanghai Airlines To Order 50 Additional Planes posted Thu May 24 2007 08:28:53 by Flying-Tiger
BA Will Order 50 New Planes By End Of 2007, Part 2 posted Fri May 18 2007 11:59:26 by 777ER
BA Will Order 50 New Planes By End Of 2007! posted Mon May 14 2007 20:08:37 by KL911
China Plans To Open 48 New Airports posted Tue May 9 2006 14:53:38 by SLCUT2777
CO To Order 34 New 737 NG's posted Wed Dec 14 2005 02:59:05 by Xms3200
Saudi Arabian Airlines To Order 15 New Aircraft posted Sat Apr 23 2005 20:06:44 by LifelinerOne
Air China To Order 23 New A Jets posted Mon Dec 6 2004 13:47:33 by Macc
Air Deccan To Take 15 New Planes posted Tue Oct 5 2004 16:25:36 by Flying-Tiger