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AA Permanently Ending ORD-FRA?  
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1076 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16811 times:

I notice that ORD-FRA has recently been removed from AA's timetable and booking system for next summer. It was previously scheduled to return in the spring after a seasonal suspension over the winter. Now it looks like it ends on 16th November for good.


Ryan / HKG
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16786 times:

Maybe due to code-share with AB they will flip it to DUS?

User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16775 times:

Perhaps they are getting ready for JFK-FRA? Its pathetic that AA would permanently drop such a key business market from their second largest hub.

User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7814 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16762 times:

Yep unfortunately. I verified it though a couple of people I know at AA. ORD-FRA is toast.

It does, however, pave the way for JFK-FRA and ORD-DUS.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16729 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Thread starter):
Perhaps they are getting ready for JFK-FRA? Its pathetic that AA would permanently drop such a key business market from their second largest hub.

That would make sense. I can sort of understand suspending ORD-FRA during the winter, but if they don't either bring it back in the spring or add JFK-FRA in the spring, that really would be shocking.


User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16725 times:

Just looked for myself and it's not there! Could it be that the summer schedule isn't adjusted yet (speculation)? I say this because we have yet to see some announcements for new routes/ freq changes for summer 2011. Maybe it'll show up in the future? If not, maybe it is gone for good.

User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7814 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16725 times:

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 5):


Just looked for myself and it's not there! Could it be that the summer schedule isn't adjusted yet (speculation)?

No, it was in there as of last week and they took it out.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlinetimberwolf24 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16636 times:

I remember when AA had non-stop service to FRA, MUC, DUS, and TXL from ORD.


Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16622 times:

Considering ORD is supposed to be AA's Transatlantic gateway, that is not a good sign 

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16509 times:

I think that with time, Berlin, with its new airport, as well as a continuing influx of business, capital, etc,. will become more and more on par with Frankfurt and Munich. How long this will be is anyone's guess, but it will start happening maybe sooner than later.

With that, the AA and AB code share, plus AB's position at the new Berlin airport, I could see AA getting ahead of the game here and finding it's going to have a significant competitive advantage in Berlin and the areas east of that. Also over time growing connections out of Berlin that will be supported by the O&D alone.

So, who needs Frankfurt?


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16341 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Thread starter):
I notice that ORD-FRA has recently been removed from AA's timetable and booking system for next summer. It was previously scheduled to return in the spring after a seasonal suspension over the winter. Now it looks like it ends on 16th November for good.

Uh oh...Are ORD-DUB and ORD-FCO still scheduled to resume next summer?

Quoting WROORD (Reply 1):
Maybe due to code-share with AB they will flip it to DUS?

They would still have to compete against a strong LH/UA duo on that one, though. I highly doubt ORD-DUS is big enough for two (competing) carriers.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 1):
Perhaps they are getting ready for JFK-FRA?

I would imagine this to be the case. I can't see them just doing DFW-FRA all by itself.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):
Its pathetic that AA would permanently drop such a key business market from their second largest hub.

It's hard for AA to fill its flights based on FRA's O&D alone, though. LH and UA enjoy so much connectivity on both ends of the flight.

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 8):
Considering ORD is supposed to be AA's Transatlantic gateway, that is not a good sign

ORD is down to just four year-round transatlantic destinations - LHR, CDG, MAN, and BRU (FCO and DUB are supposedly seasonal, though now I'm wondering now if either will be returning). From JFK, you have year-round flights to LHR, CDG, BRU, ZRH, BCN, MXP, MAD, plus seasonal flights to MAN and FCO. I think its only a matter of time til JFK-FRA and JFK-DUB are added, linking the last two European spokes to the JFK hub. It's pretty clear to me as to which airport is the airline's primary transatlantic gateway, though.

With UA having added ORD-BRU (with SN feed to boot) and ORD-FCO, I have to wonder if AA will be able to keep anything beyond LHR/CDG going from ORD. A far cry from the ORD hub I remember growing up with, what with AA service to DUB, GLA, BHX, MAN, LHR, CDG, MXP, ZRH, FRA, and ARN. Seems they just gave up on the hub after ORD-DME flopped. Oh well, AA's losses are UA's gains.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 16171 times:

AA will continue to operate two daily flights to Frankfurt, its just one won't be from Chicago. And AA will continue to serve Chicago-Germany, just not from FRA (and it's probably not from DUS either - I'm hearing it will be BBI).

AA and BA are talking now and beginning to plan trans-Atlantic schedules. This is just one of many changes we will begin to see.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
Uh oh...Are ORD-DUB and ORD-FCO still scheduled to resume next summer?

Absolutely. O'Hare-Dublin will operate year-round - it is a suspension, not a seasonal reduction. Rome has always been seasonal since 2001, so that's nothing new.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
I highly doubt ORD-DUS is big enough for two (competing) carriers.

MIA-DUS supports two competing carriers. Granted, its a larger local market, but still. People often forget how large DUS is. It's a much larger city than Munich or Frankfurt; a lot of traffic actually leaks to Amsterdam.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
From JFK, you have year-round flights to LHR, CDG, BRU, ZRH, BCN, MXP, MAD, plus seasonal flights to MAN and FCO.

JFK-FCO is year-round. It is being suspended this summer and will resume year-round service in April. Also, JFK-MAN, while seasonal, is expected to go year-round in April.



a.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15980 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
I'm hearing it will be BBI

Where is that? You mean Berlin?


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2019 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 15841 times:

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 8):
Considering ORD is supposed to be AA's Transatlantic gateway, that is not a good sign

I agree, it's definitely not good for business if AA keep such an important city on it's TATL roster from ORD.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 12):
Where is that? You mean Berlin?

It's the new Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport.


User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15729 times:

AA ending a big business route between ORD-FRA is not good, regardless of the way people here try to spin it. AA can't support service between their second largest hub and one of America's biggest cities and Germany's financial capital? That doesn't help their case for starting the inevitable JFK-FRA, where they'll face even stiffer competition from DL and LH. Although we all know AA controls the corporate contracts in NYC.  

Jeremy


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15689 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
Although we all know AA controls the corporate contracts in NYC.  

I wonder how much they do these days. I feel like CO, DL, US and even B6 get a lot of corporate travel in and out of NYC.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15661 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
Although we all know AA controls the corporate contracts in NYC.  

I wonder how much they do these days. I feel like CO, DL, US and even B6 get a lot of corporate travel in and out of NYC.

They still do, but they will obviously need to keep on building JFK and LGA to the extent they can to keep those contracts.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
That doesn't help their case for starting the inevitable JFK-FRA, where they'll face even stiffer competition from DL and LH.

But since AA has such a strong hold on corporate travel contracts in New York City (which is a fact despite your cleverly inserted "   "), a lot of traffic that currently takes Lufthansa is going to automatically flow to AA overnight, since most corporate travel contracts for any airline are written as this: "Passenger will take airline A, unless airline B offers a non-stop in market of travel."

AA has always been second fiddle to United in Chicago in corporate travel, that's nothing new.



a.
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15635 times:

I wonder how much of the ORD cuts can be directly traced to the retirement of the A300s? When those went, AA had to grab 763 widebody lift for South America and the Carribbean from somewhere, and ORD-Europe was the easiest place for that.

User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15542 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):

But since AA has such a strong hold on corporate travel contracts in New York City (which is a fact despite your cleverly inserted " "), a lot of traffic that currently takes Lufthansa is going to automatically flow to AA overnight, since most corporate travel contracts for any airline are written as this: "Passenger will take airline A, unless airline B offers a non-stop in market of travel."

I don't believe that for a minute, if that were the case AA would be New York's largest airline not the 4th like they are. People can sugarcoat AA's strategy in NYC all they want, but if AA could've so easily eaten up the corporate contracts on JFK-FRA they would be flying the route now. And they aren't. Same thing with comments like "AA would print money on MIA-JNB;" something that simply isn't true. If company's perceive guaranteed profits somewhere, they go there.

Jeremy


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15527 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Absolutely. O'Hare-Dublin will operate year-round - it is a suspension, not a seasonal reduction.

Isn't that word for word what you said about ORD-FRA?



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15513 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 19):

Isn't that word for word what you said about ORD-FRA?

Yes it was the exact same thing said about ORD-FRA.

Jeremy


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15493 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
AA will continue to operate two daily flights to Frankfurt, its just one won't be from Chicago. And AA will continue to serve Chicago-Germany, just not from FRA (and it's probably not from DUS either - I'm hearing it will be BBI).

That would be as smart of decision as any (ORD-BBI, that is) - might as well try to play to your own alliance's strengths while at the same time avoiding a head to head battle with a market that is otherwise heavily dominated by *A

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
That doesn't help their case for starting the inevitable JFK-FRA, where they'll face even stiffer competition from DL and LH.

Don't forget CO/LH in EWR as well.

Though to be fair, this is probably one of those routes that AA has to have in order to help maintain/lure contracts from the financial companies in NYC regardless of whether or not it is widely successful. Although the same situation arguably existed in ORD and evidently that wasn't enough to justify keeping the route.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):

AA has always been second fiddle to United in Chicago in corporate travel, that's nothing new.

I hate to jump the gun on topics like these, but I think you have to wonder if ORD-BRU could be headed the same way - or at the very least start wondering if that is the best use of a B763 for AA.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15488 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 19):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Absolutely. O'Hare-Dublin will operate year-round - it is a suspension, not a seasonal reduction.

Isn't that word for word what you said about ORD-FRA?

Yes, it is. I also continually said that we could throw everything that AA is doing out the window once cooperation with BA was permitted.

And now that BA and AA are cooperating, decisions are being made, and we just saw one of the first one decisions that has gone public. I am told there was another casualty - a Scandinavian route that AA wanted to start from JFK in the spring but BA has rejected - and we will see plenty of other changes.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 18):
I don't believe that for a minute, if that were the case AA would be New York's largest airline not the 4th like they are. People can sugarcoat AA's strategy in NYC all they want, but if AA could've so easily eaten up the corporate contracts on JFK-FRA they would be flying the route now. And they aren't. Same thing with comments like "AA would print money on MIA-JNB;" something that simply isn't true. If company's perceive guaranteed profits somewhere, they go there.

If you choose not to believe the fact that AA has a stronghold on New York City's corporate contracts, that's fine. You can live in denial of that fact. The fact is that AA's network from the New York City area is specifically designed to suit those corporate travel needs, which is why its so business-market focused and not as expansive as Delta.

Not really sure what MIA-JNB has anything to do with this, but AA does not have the aircraft to fly the route capably non-stop without heavy payload restrictions.



a.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15478 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 9):
I think that with time, Berlin, with its new airport, as well as a continuing influx of business, capital, etc,. will become more and more on par with Frankfurt and Munich. How long this will be is anyone's guess, but it will start happening maybe sooner than later.

With that, the AA and AB code share, plus AB's position at the new Berlin airport, I could see AA getting ahead of the game here and finding it's going to have a significant competitive advantage in Berlin and the areas east of that. Also over time growing connections out of Berlin that will be supported by the O&D alone.

So, who needs Frankfurt?

AA has the chance now with AB to start from scratch in Central Europe. They have a completely new airport and a partner that offers connecting flights from its hub.

In FRA AA was pretty much on its own facing competition from LH and its Star Alliance partners.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 15427 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):

If you choose not to believe the fact that AA has a stronghold on New York City's corporate contracts, that's fine. You can live in denial of that fact. The fact is that AA's network from the New York City area is specifically designed to suit those corporate travel needs, which is why its so business-market focused and not as expansive as Delta.

That's not what I said. I know for a fact that AA has a great relationship with many NYC corporations, but so do CO, DL and B6, who've gained notable ground in New York over these last few years as AA sat and watched DL grow into New York's 2nd largest carrier. I don't, however, believe that AA starting JFK-FRA is simply going to divert traffic away from LH or CO/LH over at EWR, who've operated the route for decades, who operate numerous frequencies, and who have superior service. AA will surely gain some traffic from its corporate contracts, but will be behind the pack on JFK-FRA just as they were on ORD-FRA. They're simply minimizing their losses, which were clearly larger on ORD-FRA than AA's thinks they'll be on JFK-FRA (although this route has yet to be announced).

Jeremy


25 MAH4546 : Exactly. Play on the strengths of the alliance in a market that is quite undeserved from the U.S. Originally I was hearing (and there was another thr
26 MAH4546 : Well, where I work, if AA decided that it was going to start LAX-FRA tomorrow, all our traffic to LAX-FRA would have to transfer to AA the day the ro
27 flyfree727 : As was told to us by our base manager in ORD, the decision has to do with the AI flight from FRA to ORD. AI is underselling the fare at some unrealist
28 Post contains images LAXintl : Oh common now. Don't need to to go overboard and make it sound like AA PR stuff now. AA missed the boat with their rush for a new premium seat, which
29 smoot4208 : I think it just depends on each contract. Some companies have a locked in rate over a stated period and either the airline or the company has first r
30 MAH4546 : Of course, it depends on the contract. Most contracts, however, are worded like that because that's what gets corporations the best deals. Airlines a
31 Arn777 : That would be the OSL route, I was told.
32 EricR : Key word is historically. With the termination of AA's agreement with SN, this route will become a very average performer or will be terminated. This
33 MAH4546 : Correct, key word is historically. The route has operated since 1989, largely without partners, and has always performed well. Historically, Dallas-Z
34 Post contains images hiflyer : Just a continuation of the AA pull down at ORD (BNA RDU SJC STL)...nothing else to see move along.
35 r2rho : With ATI finally getting approved and AB joining OW, I expect to see a lot of TATL route rearrangements... JFK-FRA makes more sense than ORD-FRA becau
36 ydmine03 : This only brings up how underutilized the alliance relationship with Malev is. MA could be bringing a lot more feed to places like FRA, ZRH, MXP, BRU,
37 Danny : I would think EI +DL from JFK plus CO from EWR saturate the New York to Dublin market, particularly given economic depression in Ireland.
38 cslusarc : Once AI exits the ORD - FRA market, UA and LH will have a monopoly creating an opportunity for AA to re-enter. I think that with the new ATI between
39 jfklganyc : "Absolutely. O'Hare-Dublin will operate year-round - it is a suspension, not a seasonal reduction. Rome has always been seasonal since 2001, so that's
40 phklm : AI will not operate FRA-ORD next summer, at least it is not loaded in the schedules.
41 smoot4208 : At least someone was thinking. NYC-OSL has SAS or DL written all over it. It just doesn't seem like an AA destination to me. Plus a stop over in LHR
42 TheSonntag : Never say never, but Berlin is poor. The new airport might help a bit, but I highly doubt this.
43 AAExecPlat : There's no way that Dusseldorf is bigger than Frankfurt or Munich. To be sure, I looked up the stats online. Munich is far bigger than Frankfurt, and
44 United787 : Which is ironic because wasn't AA making a recent push to build up ORD again? It was exciting to see AA start to be aggressive lately but to see this
45 Post contains images Luftfahrer : What about JFK/ORD-STR now?
46 TheSonntag : With the difference that DUS is the heart of North Rhine westphalia, a german region with 22 million people and an economic power which is larger tha
47 UAL777UK : Oh come on. They have literally just installed a new J class seat in the Long Haul fleet and now they are replacing it.Why....because its not competi
48 United787 : The more I think of this, the more it disturbs me. Yes, this will give my airline, UA, even more of an advantage but I enjoy the fares from ORD becaus
49 Post contains images airbazar : That's total baloney As stated above AI is dropping the route and if theyr thought AI undercutting fares was a problem just wait until they meet SQ u
50 MAH4546 : The new J product is absolutely competitive with U.S. carriers, the majority of which are still operating with non lie-flat seats on the majority of
51 EricR : Yes, but didn't they stop serving ORD-BRU for a while. I know they went from a 767 to 777 from what I suspect was due to the agreement with SN. I thi
52 MAH4546 : No, it was because of good premium demand on the route. That summer AA had decided that London would no longer a 777-exclusive station, which freed u
53 ORDFan : What are you talking about? Please specify: are you referring strictly to AA's year-round transatlantic service? This is absolutely not true accounti
54 EricR : The thread is about AA. His reference to ORD was about AA's service from ORD.
55 qqflyboy : We've been told the announcement was supposed to occur in the past two weeks, but that it's been delayed until early October. So, hopefully, within a
56 ckfred : A friend of mine is an AA pilot. He is of the opinion that AA has become very skittish about competition, especially for routes out of ORD. If anothe
57 United787 : I wonder how much the availability of long haul aircraft has to do with this...and their economic situation doesn't give them much ability to buy new
58 American 767 : No, it was JFK-BRU that was stopped for a while. It was stopped in 1997 (saw three different equipments: 747SP for a short time, but mostly 762 and 7
59 Viscount724 : O&D market is too small, and HEL is too far north to make a good connecting hub for the rest of Europe except a few points in Scandinavia. HEL is
60 LDVAviation : AA did not miss the boat. That was the boat at the time. BA notwithstanding, at the time AA made its decision, the first of the US airlines to do so,
61 panamair : BA sticks 4 seats in the middle for ClubWorld on their 747s and 777s as well - no different from United.
62 IrishAyes : You can't deny that AA has been building up ORD to be its Asian gateway. It is far superior. AA's product development team sucks.
63 UAL777UK : Do you believe that is the only reason AA is upgrading the J Seat. Honestly? If thats the case someone at AA needs firing straight away. AA and BA ha
64 TOMMY767 : From what I understand UA is the ultimate airline in canceling flights out of ORD for little to no reason and AA is sort of ORD's "saving grace" -- t
65 MAH4546 : That is simply not true - all trans-con 767s flights from MIA receive PED units. The units handed out on domestic 763 trans-cons are the same given o
66 LAXintl : Yes BA product is nice, and they also have the 4-across center seating just like United does, something that does not seem to be an issue for most tr
67 LAXintl : I have flown LAX-BOS three times in recent months on 757s -- no video units. Matter of fact I don't recall getting them anywhere except on the JFK 76
68 MAH4546 : The PEDs on that route ended, then, I assume. All MIA-LAX 763/762 flights have PED units, not some. As does the lone JFK-SFO 763; and as did JFK-SAN
69 airbazar : I do understand that principle. I just mis-understood what was said previously regarding the actual route potential. At the same time Bonn and Cologn
70 EricR : I think the larger issue is that they have PEDs instead of IFEs. Instead of adding IFE, they used PEDs as a cheap way of offering in flight entertain
71 MAH4546 : I agree that's a larger issue - it was a cheap cost cutting move that should never have been approved. But the fact remains 763s trans-cons have PEDs
72 EricR : Bonn and Cologne may be an hours drive from FRA, but they are still closer to DUS, so I'm not sure what your point is here. The fact of the matter is
73 Post contains images deltal1011man : Really think so? And don't forget, with ATI AA will start 60000000 routes to Europe and run Sky and Star out of the TATL market. Mawhahahaha but at l
74 MAH4546 : It will be six routes to start with in 2011 - five from JFK and one from MIA; plus one new London-U.S. route which Walsh mentioned two weeks ago, lik
75 Luftfahrer : Delta has a direct flight to ATL (daily year-round, B763/ER) which caters to the Stuttgart/southwestern Germany area. From my own experience and othe
76 United787 : Yes, you are correct, but HKG remains a big hole, even DL serves HKG from DTW and they don't have a partner there...
77 FWAERJ : Because AA wants to serve HKG with their own metal, not CX's. CX may have the award-winning product, but AA has the corporate travel contracts. I don
78 MAH4546 : Some do, some don't. But in the end, by de facto, traffic flows onto codeshares because the corporate travellers want miles with their corporation's
79 WROORD : They would be hardly competing as LH gets outbound feeds from UA and inbound from its own network, while AA would get their own feeds outbound and AB
80 Post contains images deltal1011man : um maybe its because it hasn't happened. At this point its still take my word for it......and they last time that happened we were told ORD-FRA would
81 reifel : To get back to the initial Topic question: as an agent I have booked a guest on AA from FRA via ORD to MIA this summer. I received indeed a cancellati
82 EricR : In all fairness, didn't he say this prior to the AB / AA codeshare announcement? The dynamics of things probably changed significantly with the code
83 PHX Flyer : AA got pushed out of the DUS market 15 years ago by Star. I don't see any significant changes that would indicate a shift in market strength there. I
84 MAH4546 : I was extremely clear in saying that everything can go up in smoke once AA and BA get ATI - and ORD-FRA is one of those routes that AA/BA have decide
85 airbazar : The point is, in the context of the TATL market there is very little service and competition to/from DUS. The pull of FRA and it's nearly unlimited o
86 EricR : This still does not change the fact that the DUS area has a greater concentration of population than FRA or MUC which is the point that we are trying
87 UALWN : So I guess we should all conclude that LH is really really stupid for having their main hubs at FRA and MUC, with DUS a distant third. Either that or
88 incitatus : In the business world things are cemented. That is, until one day they are un-cemented. Leisure-focused low-cost-carriers often morph into more ordin
89 airbazar : Point me to the post where I ever stated such nonsense. I know that full well. I'm just pointing out that airport catchment areas and city borders ar
90 EricR : I never said that you said this. I said the POINT we have been trying to make to you is that this area contains more population than FRA and MUC. How
91 incitatus : If one is looking at fairly homogenous economy like the part of Germany that used to be West Germany, population is not irrelevant. If we are comparin
92 UALWN : And the area to the west, with Bonn and Köln.
93 EricR : The Metropolitan Region of the DUS area (which also includes Ruhr, Cologne (Koln), Bonn) contains 11.6 million people. The Metropolitan Region of the
94 UALWN : I believe he wrote catchment area, and he mentioned Stuttgart, for instance. It has little to do with the population of the metropolitan area. For in
95 EricR : But you are forgetting this is about new flights from Germany to the USA. Therefore, if a new DUS - USA flight is launched, those people in Koln / Bo
96 bobnwa : I believe all he said was DUS area had a larger population period. Nothing more nothing less.
97 EricR : Thank you Bob! All I was attempting to do was clarify something for AAexecPlat that MAH4546 had said (see reply 51). In hindsight, I should have said
98 sydscott : Are we going to see JFK-Moscow as part of the 5 you mentioned since they dropped it from ORD?
99 UALWN : It does to a certain extend, but it's not the end of the story. Dusseldorf metro area is what it is, and it doesn't depend on the location of the air
100 UALWN : He was replying to a statement about the catchment are of FRA and chose to reply with a statement about the metropolitan area of FRA. I was trying to
101 incitatus : But he is also associating metro areas and catchment areas. Anywhere, they overlap, but they are not the same. Also, two neighboring airports may hav
102 MAH4546 : It's been rumored. But I have a suspicion it won't make the 2011 cuts. However, as S7 is joining oneWorld in less than two months, I think it is very
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