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DOT Approves DL HND Extension  
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5929 times:

The DOT has approved DL's request to start service March 1st instead of January 29th.

Quote:
Delta flights between Detroit and Haneda and Los Angeles and Haneda now will start on March 1, rather than Jan. 29, as originally required by the DOT.

Delta requested the extension to move the inaugural service into a higher demand period.

In the request filed with the DOT earlier this month, Delta said the 30-day extension would have “no impact on the long-term benefits of its services” and would allow the new capacity to be introduced into the U.S.-Tokyo market “when there is public demand to support the flights.”

The original late January start date is the industry’s lowest demand period of the year for mainland U.S.-Tokyo passengers, while March typically is much stronger.

DL also has rebooked all the customers on the HND flights to NRT.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5922 times:

DOT also stated

"We note that Hawaiian Airlines, Inc. filed an answer stating that it does not oppose Delta's request but is prepared to operate a second Honolulu-Haneda service should any protracted delays arise with Delta's startup."



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5810 times:

This isn't right IMO, but at least now if AA wants to delay the startup, it can apply as well. One question: If DL is delaying the startup until the high demand period, what's to prevent this from happening again next year, and the year after? If demand is slow this winter, then it should stand that it will be slow every winter. Is DL going to request a winter suspension every year now or do will this not be necessary once the route is "established"?

User currently offlineelmothehobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5778 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO, but at least now if AA wants to delay the startup

American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.


User currently offlineflflyguy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5749 times:
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Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 3):
American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.

According to Sabre, AA is starting JFK-HND on 20Jan. As far as I know we have not asked for an extension and the flight is bookable.



The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO

Why not? They asked, they received. End of story.
You can do all the    you want, nobody will listen. Including UA.

Business is full of trade offs, one way deals and compromises, you know that.

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5679 times:

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 3):
American is launching JFK-HND the same day Delta is launch DTW/LAX-HND.

AA is still starting it in January.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Why not? They asked, they received. End of story.
You can do all the you want, nobody will listen. Including UA.

Business is full of trade offs, one way deals and compromises, you know that.

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I'm not doing any    . There was a thread on this subject not too long ago where this issue was debated and I expressed my opinion there as to why I didn't think it was right. The 744 issue is different, because that's far down the line. This is an immediate request for an exception. Anyway, I know that what's done is done and that nobody will listed but I can still say that I don't think it's the right decision by the DOT.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5631 times:

Classic example of "ask and you shall receive." I don't get why so many fanboys of other airlines get mad at Delta for doing stuff like this... why don't they get mad at their airline for not strategically delaying a flight like Delta is doing?

Delta played the game well. They got the routes they wanted (with the DOT's approval) and are getting to start it later like they wanted (with the DOT's approval.) What is wrong with that? If anything, it should be the DOT that should be getting flack, not Delta. Just my 2 cents  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5612 times:

Hawaiian's response is not surprising. They're keeping the welcome mat out.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
This isn't right IMO

I don't think it is either, but this is the government we're talking about after all. I expected it would go through.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
One question: If DL is delaying the startup until the high demand period, what's to prevent this from happening again next year, and the year after? If demand is slow this winter, then it should stand that it will be slow every winter. Is DL going to request a winter suspension every year now or do will this not be necessary once the route is "established"?

I've been wondering that same thing. What's going to happen next time winter inevitably rolls around? If HND is a gold mine, I'd start digging.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I think some expect an downgauge sooner rather than later.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2461 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5546 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

I don't think it will take retirement to bring A330s to HND, at least on the LAX flight, once competition begins in earnest.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 2):
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
I don't think it is either, but this is the government we're talking about after all. I expected it would go through.

What's so surprising? This isn't the first or the last time you will see an airline ask for an extension on a route. I was quite surprised by the amount of comments the other thread drew. Kind of like a "nothing to see here" type deal if you ask me.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
What's so surprising? This isn't the first or the last time you will see an airline ask for an extension on a route. I was quite surprised by the amount of comments the other thread drew. Kind of like a "nothing to see here" type deal if you ask me.

Because I think that this isn't JUST another case of an airline asking for an extension. This was a very competitive application process. DL was the only airline to ask for all 4 available applications and in the end, wound up getting 2 routes at the expense of other airlines, some of which got none at all. They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes and now, after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them, they are asking for an extension. But anyway, this was debated in a previous thread so let's not start another argument here. As DeltaMD90 said, they played "the game" well, which I agree that they did.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10652 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes and now, after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them, they are asking for an extension

And some of the other airlines DIDN'T have the balls to do that. Not only that, it wasn't DL's fault that those other airlines didn't get the routes......the DOT made the decision, not DL. BTW, maybe UA didn't have the balls because they thought they had the application in the bag........ya think?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5358 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
DL was the only airline to ask for all 4 available applications

So?

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
and in the end, wound up getting 2 routes at the expense of other airlines, some of which got none at all.

And those airlines that got nothing at all, namely CO and UA, have a partner that will be offering 2 US-HND flights on which will soon be a part of a joint venture.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
They had the balls to ask for all 4 routes

So? You say that as though what they did was illegal. Every airline that applied for US-HND flights was free to ask for all 4 routes. Just because they did not and DL did, does not mean that what DL did was somehow wrong.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
after some other airlines got nothing partially because of them

No, it's clear that the awards were parcelled out with respect to the strenght of the various alliances in the US-Japan market. Star was given 2 (UA/CO will be able to revenue share on the two NH US-HND routes so those airlines were not, technically, excluded from the market, Skyteam was given 3, and Oneworld (the smallest of the three at the time of the awards) ended up with 3.

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 11):
they are asking for an extension.

Which, again, is perfectly legal and the DOT's approval speaks to the fact that what DL did was not "wrong".



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
Which, again, is perfectly legal and the DOT's approval speaks to the fact that what DL did was not "wrong".

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
What's so surprising?

Neither of us say anything about surprise. I clearly state that I wasn't.

And as far as your surprise with the comments in the previous thread, just read the original thread about the proposed awards. Many exuberant comments in that thread--some of them yours. There shouldn't be surprise that, when the tables turned, comments came with it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 12):
And some of the other airlines DIDN'T have the balls to do that. Not only that, it wasn't DL's fault that those other airlines didn't get the routes......the DOT made the decision, not DL. BTW, maybe UA didn't have the balls because they thought they had the application in the bag........ya think?

I didn't take balls to do all this. It took conceit and no soul.

You know, since I'm from farm country, that's like saying I shouldn't dislike Monsanto because it was the government that helped them create a monopoly that I consider dangerous for the world. Sorry, but you start at the source.


User currently onlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5293 times:
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Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):

Are you gonna cry foul when the 744 gets retired and DL needs a different type of aircraft to HND?

Talking about the LAX/DTW-HND, I just don't see this route being flown with 744s, for very long, if at all. It seems like way too much capacity. I see this route going A332 or 77Es while LAX-NRT I can see going A332/77E/77L since this is a large transit point for DL.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
Skyteam was given 3,

2
LAX-HND and DTW-HND

HA was given HNL-HND and AA got JFK-HND

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

You know, this is funny to me, Everyone on here pisses and moans about this, yet no airline, UA, CO, AA, US, HA, WN, FL, NK, AS, VX, F9 etc. wanted to step up to the plate and take over for Delta. Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it. The DOT (AFAIK) has never taken right/slots away from an airline when anet wanted them too.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
. It took conceit and no soul.

because its a company not a person.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):

Talking about the LAX/DTW-HND, I just don't see this route being flown with 744s, for very long, if at all. It seems like way too much capacity. I see this route going A332 or 77Es while LAX-NRT I can see going A332/77E/77L since this is a large transit point for DL.

everyone sees that........except Delta.  

I just don't understand, Why is it Delta is going to do nothing but cut/fail yet no one seems to say the same about AA, NH, JL and HA? (I know its called bias, and it really gets old.....quickly)



yep.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it.

HA did. Guess the DOT didn't follow your line of thinking.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
because its a company not a person.

So a company is not made up of people and doesn't take a personality? News to me . . .


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5229 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 15):
And as far as your surprise with the comments in the previous thread, just read the original thread about the proposed awards. Many exuberant comments in that thread--some of them yours. There shouldn't be surprise that, when the tables turned, comments came with it.

Can't win 'em all I guess. Seems like the same sob story is all i'm saying. Same as the other thread.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 17):
Had an airline came out and said, "hey Delta can't start on time but we can" you can pretty much bet the DOT would have told Delta start it in Jan or give up the slots. No airline did so no one needs to cry about it.

They won't and they know this. As much as airlines fight about things, they seem to have an understanding where there needs to be one. You balk at DL now, be certain the 'norm will change in the future and the ability to extend start-ups will most certainly change.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

Maybe DL can use that 30day period to accelerate the planned cabin upgrades of those "idle" 744's...  


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 18):

HA did. Guess the DOT didn't follow your line of thinking.

No HA did not.
"We note that Hawaiian Airlines, Inc. filed an answer stating that it does not oppose Delta's request but is prepared to operate a second Honolulu-Haneda service should any protracted delays arise with Delta's startup." (thanks LAXint) Which means if Delta keeps pushing it off that HA will be happy to step in.

So again NO airline wanted to step up to the plate and at least make Delta start these routes in Jan.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 18):

So a company is not made up of people and doesn't take a personality? News to me . . .

I didn't say that, but a company doing what is best for its shareholders is its personality, not to make you, or the rest of the biased party on anet happy.  



yep.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):

They won't and they know this. As much as airlines fight about things, they seem to have an understanding where there needs to be one. You balk at DL now, be certain the 'norm will change in the future and the ability to extend start-ups will most certainly change.

eh i kinda disagree.

AA and IIRC NK asked the DOT to put DL's JFK-BOG rights up for bid when DL wanted to shift it to ATL-BOG #2. It does happen, it just doesn't happen a lot because 9 times out of 10 the airlines don't really want the rights. Also in the case of HND i believe most airlines think HND is going to open up even more, even so much so that Anderson said he thinks Delta should be able to move its NRT hub to HND.



yep.
User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6671 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5079 times:

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 14):
".

Yes, I realize this. To respond to your entire post, I never said that DL did anything wrong or illegal. I am just saying that in my opinion, the DOT was wrong to grant DL its extension request based on a number of reasons.

I agree with this. It's a mater of principle that if you bid for a route,you need to start it. If you don't start it, let somebody else fly the route. This principle should be applied to ALL routes with limited frequences. It doesn't matter what airline it is. Why is that so difficult for the DL supporters to agree to that priciple ?

I think in this case, there were no other carriers (except HA) willing start the routes by the deadline and that's why DOT gave the extension.

I think DL stands to lose lots of money on the LAX-HND route by flying a 744. I talked to a NH rep the other day and their new LAX-HND route has less than 100 people booked each day for the first month and that's with codeshare and much better connectivity than DL both in Japan and on the US side at LAX.



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

When the flight actually starts, they could use the refitted 747s. The 747s go in in December and the first ones will be coming out in January and Feb (if I remember right).


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
25 PSU.DTW.SCE : No, the 744 fleet isn't going to begin mods until mid-2011.
26 Frostbite : That's quite a statement. The "soulful" move would have been to apply for only 3 of the awards? 2? 1? Cry me a river.[Edited 2010-09-28 04:32:47]
27 Post contains images OA412 : Well your statements indicate otherwise. Again, your statements and implications in this thread seem to suggest otherwise. And what are those reasons
28 crosswinds21 : No airline is going to do this because it would likely be extremely unprofitable to start selling seats on a new route such as HND 3 months in advanc
29 CV880 : The peak season for Hawaii/Japan is winter.....maybe that's why DL will be flying 5x daily Hawaii-Japan during that time period.
30 Post contains images peanuts : C'mon now guys. A 747 may be a lot of airplane at first but this route is still 6 months out. Since when do business travelers book that far in advan
31 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Good point.
32 Pohakuloa : Does anyone else think that the EIS for the HND routes on DL and AA will inevitably benefit HA the greatest in the short/medium term? Being the only U
33 The777Man : A route should be started by the speciifed date and if not, it should be given to another carrier that's willing to start it. Is that so difficult to
34 MSPNWA : Yes, they essentially did according to your initial criteria. Where in your original comment do you say anything about an airline making Delta start
35 deltal1011man : Ok That isn't how it would happen. If HA had objected(or UA or AA etc.) the DOT would have given Delta 2 options, 1) fly the route no later than Jan.
36 cokepopper : I believe 2 just went in recently, can anyone confirm this?
37 Post contains links deltal1011man : http://blog.delta.com/2010/09/02/boe...at-beds-touch-screen-tvs-and-more/ you'll see it says starting between S11 and S12. The only mods being done th
38 PSU.DTW.SCE : No none are in mod. There was a poster in another thread who started this rumor but it is not true. All 744s are in active service (although some spe
39 bobnwa : But apparently no other carrier wanted to start the two routes early, so what point are you trying to make. Delta made a request for a delay of one m
40 Post contains images deltal1011man : holy crap we agree again.
41 anonms : Actually, what HA said to the DOT (in casual American English) was, "We don't have any problems with Delta's delaying of their flights, but if you've
42 mcdu : What? Delta unable to start a route on the date prescribed in an award? Well, there is a first time for everything Seriously, this is a terrible actio
43 bobnwa : Seems to me an awful lot of ranting for a one month delay in the start up new service. The sun will still rise in the east an set in the west after t
44 airlineexpert : What has not been discussed above is that the Jan 29 start date was derived from any economic perspective but from the availability of the new HND run
45 mayor : DL is hardly alone in this.....IIRC, AA and UA have done the same thing. BTW, how is it unfair? The other carriers had their chance to object and no
46 mcdu : I don't see how DL can poor mouth their Japan access with all of the NRT slots they control. It would have seemed to be better to give those slots to
47 mayor : He was not the only one.........there were quite a few on here that thought that way. When the gov't. of Japan is supporting it as well as the CEO of
48 DeltaMD90 : It's not like DL isn't playing by the rules. DOT is the rules. If they got all 4 HND slots and delayed it 15 years and the DOT said ok then it's ok. T
49 mcdu : Where can you link an article indicating that UA felt it had HND in the bag. I believe most UA folks felt we would get shut out due to the ANA link.
50 The777Man : Exactly what I was saying above; forget about this specific case; A route should be started by a specific date and if not, it should be given to anot
51 burnsie28 : Looks like Delta won't be taking the full 30 day extension. Schedules have been finalized and the DTW-HND flight will begin February 19 and the LAX-HN
52 mogandoCI : DOT should really set minimum commitment period requirements - if you say you'll offer daily 744 service, there should be minimum 12 months before any
53 Post contains images Transpac787 : Considering they are geared toward two totally separate markets, I don't see how you can draw any logical ties between the two. Was a nice try, thoug
54 elmothehobo : Quite a few people would take the option of a shorter airport commute to LGA, an hour layover at DTW followed by a short commute into Tokyo from Hane
55 burnsie28 : NRT at DTW was run double daily before DL took over and NW did it just fine, with many of those people ending their journey in NRT, This will easily
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