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TAM Applies For CNF-MIA And BSB-MIA  
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Posted (3 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 6956 times:

TAM applied yesterday before the Brazilian ANAC for a new daily flight to Miami, alternating between Belo Horizonte and Brasília as departure point. Since there is no public access to the details, it's not clear if the flight will be seasonal or year-round. We will have to wait for the official announcement.

Eff. December 1, 2010:

JJ8042 763 1-3-5-7 BSB 2255 MIA 0330+1
JJ8043 763 1-3-5-7 MIA 1000 BSB 2020

JJ8058 763 -2-4-6- CNF 2230 MIA 0330+1
JJ8059 763 -2-4-6- MIA 1000 CNF 2100

Source: http://www.anac.gov.br/hotran/

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 6975 times:

Awesome news. I suspect this will be a year-round service, but that's only my guess.


a.
User currently offlinetonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6925 times:

Great news! I wonder how this will affect AA's MIA-CNF service and if it will bring prices down a bit  

User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6850 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
JJ8042 763 1-3-5-7 BSB 2255 MIA 0330+1
JJ8043 763 1-3-5-7 MIA 1000 BSB 2020

JJ8058 763 -2-4-6- CNF 2230 MIA 0330+1
JJ8059 763 -2-4-6- MIA 1000 CNF 2100

Very odd departure times. Wouldn't it have made more sense to have daylight flights going TO the USA and redeyes going back to Brazil?


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6553 times:

If someone is wondering about the times because of another thread, that schedule was expressed in Brazilian Daylight Saving Time, while this one is already converted to Local Times. It's not the best schedule, but we already have GIG-MIA operating like that:

JJ8056 763 1234567 GIG 2158 MIA 0345+1

[Edited 2010-09-29 10:16:38]

User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6490 times:

US-BSB market may become tough for AA. Besides DL and LA, JJ and TA are to bring more competition.
The downside is that market gets only more of the same: two competing services to MIA (instead one to NYC) and other two to LIM (instead one to BOG).

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
JJ8042 763 1-3-5-7 BSB 2255 MIA 0330+1
JJ8043 763 1-3-5-7 MIA 1000 BSB 2020


They may be considering a significant cargo demand on that route.

[Edited 2010-09-29 10:16:31]

User currently offlineminer From Brazil, joined Aug 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6490 times:

I'm having a thing right now. This is great news, but why did it take SO long? Now I think AA's response will have to be an announcement for daily flights. Can it though?

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

Are these the routes MIA secured at Vancuever last week? I heard they secured a new airline, was JJ it?

User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6345 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 7):
I heard they secured a new airline, was JJ it?

JJ already has a fairly large presence at MIA



ET In NYC
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 7):
Are these the routes MIA secured at Vancuever last week? I heard they secured a new airline, was JJ it?

How would JJ be a new airline considering it already flies four daily flights to Miami?



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):

I still would like to see a link about this Vancouver event. I am interested to read it. Was it an airline fair of sorts?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6229 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 10):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):

I still would like to see a link about this Vancouver event. I am interested to read it. Was it an airline fair of sorts?

There is plenty of information online. A simple Google search will find you a lot.



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

Tried searching the other day but could not come up with anything. did you get this info from a friend or an actual news source?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 12):
Tried searching the other day but could not come up with anything. did you get this info from a friend or an actual news source?

The MIA info? You won't find it anywhere online. Just sit tight and wait.



a.
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6190 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):

Then were did you get it? Do you work at MIA and know the officials there? From what i heard about you, you where based in California.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11436 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6091 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

That's awesome news and it seems finally TAM is looking to Brazil as big as the country is and not to a single point. MIA is a first point and thanks to the B763, will become for sure a year-round service. The experience with GIG-MIA and MAO-MIA is very good and profitable, and MIA become a key market, specially now that TAM can be stronger with LAN, another airline with BIG eyes over MIA.

In my view would be better to do daylight from Brazil and overnight from MIA.



Quoting miner (Reply 6):
I'm having a thing right now. This is great news, but why did it take SO long? Now I think AA's response will have to be an announcement for daily flights. Can it though?

I believe they are looking into how CCS performs and it seems not so great as they could expect for the B763. So far the only acceptable way to have 1 B763 for the route, is taking from CCS and put it back as A320 thru MAO (or BSB)



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 5):
US-BSB market may become tough for AA. Besides DL and LA, JJ and TA are to bring more competition.

The only one its going to be really tough for is Delta. Enjoy it while it lasts. AA already made Delta's departure likely; TAM throwing even more capacity just about kills whatever chance Delta had left. No doubt its going to hurt AA's yield projections, though, but AA will be able to offer great beyond connections from BSB and benefit from its strong Miami FF base; whereareas TAM has the opposite benefits, good connections via BSB (though not sure how it works with the proposed schedule) and BSB-based fliers.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 14):
Then were did you get it? Do you work at MIA and know the officials there? From what i heard about you, you where based in California.

I am from Miami. Where I get my information and where I live is entirely irrelevant to anything. The topic is on TAM, not other airlines, not where I live nor the Vancouver routes convention.

[Edited 2010-09-29 16:07:48]


a.
User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5924 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The only one its going to be really tough for is Delta. Enjoy it while it lasts. AA already made Delta's departure likely; TAM throwing even more capacity just about kills whatever chance Delta had left. No doubt its going to hurt AA's yield projections, though, but AA will be able to offer great beyond connections from BSB and benefit from its strong Miami FF base
DL will keep offering the best round-trip schedules between the largest number of destinations and BSB.
The biggest hit DL could have in that market was already caused by AA. After that, more capacity brought by LA, JJ and TA makes far more difference to AA and to themselves than to DL.





[Edited 2010-09-29 22:27:15]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5849 times:

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 17):
DL will keep offering the best round-trip schedules between the largest number of destinations and BSB.

What does it matter? Not only is the BSB-U.S. market tiny, but close to 60% of BSB-U.S. demand is to Miami. And the rest of the 40% is pretty much just going to MCO/NYC/WAS.

You continue to live in this fantasyland in which Brasilia has a lot of demand to the U.S. It doesn't. Deal with it. Delta is all but gone. Recife and Manaus could not support Delta, and they both have more demand to the U.S. than Brasilia does.

[Edited 2010-09-30 04:06:45]


a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11436 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5840 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 17):
DL will keep offering the best round-trip schedules between the largest number of destinations and BSB.
The biggest hit DL could have in that market was already caused by AA. After that, more capacity brought by LA, JJ and TA makes far more difference to AA and to themselves than to DL.

And passengers that do not speak english so well will continue to think that JJ offers the best portuguese service as well as JJ have the largest FF base in BSB (and CNF) plus easy connections.
Don't understimate JJ international operations, and despite DL redeye service both ways, they will compete against two MIA services. They will do well on summer as any other airline considering Brazilians are travelling all over the United States... but in the winter, when VFR is an important component and Brazilians looks for the warmest in general, MIA is a killer.
Take into considerations that BSB VFR from/to the United States is very limited.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5729 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
What does it matter?
(...)
You continue to live in this fantasyland

MAH4546,
You repels me to dialog with you.
Please, just don't be so inelegant.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
And passengers that do not speak english so well will continue to think that JJ offers the best portuguese service as well as JJ have the largest FF base in BSB (and CNF) plus easy connections.
Don't understimate JJ international operations, and despite DL redeye service both ways, they will compete against two MIA services.

I don't underestimate JJ's newest operation to MIA, I just think its huge impact will be on AA's (not on DL's) operation to BSB.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
They will do well on summer as any other airline considering Brazilians are travelling all over the United States... but in the winter, when VFR is an important component and Brazilians looks for the warmest in general, MIA is a killer.

That means JJ is AA's (not DL's) killer in BSB, since ATL offers the best connections to destinations different of Florida.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4009 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 19):
Take into considerations that BSB VFR from/to the United States is very limited.

Beyond your point, there is more that makes me think theses routes may not be there in the long run.

Both American and Delta rely on hubs to aggregate traffic to CNF/BSB. The TAM service, especially the departures from Miami, connect from absolutely nothing on United/Continental/USAirways. The northbounds will connect to Star Alliance hubs, and one can take it from there. But even L.A. and San Francisco will require a passenger boarding these flights to make two connections. Boston too. The Orlando traffic will continue going through GRU.

Then, on the south side, a couple of years ago I clearly remember a report on GIG vs. SDU that showed that half of TAM's traffic on the GIG-MIA and GIG-CDG flights was connecting. TAM connectivity at CNF is poor. BSB will get good connections going north, but the southbound arrival is too late for most. TAM is placing the 767s on much smaller markets and will have to rely mostly on local traffic.

Also, I could be wrong, but my impression is that TAM is not a very aggressive discounter. Lower fares might bring a lot more travelers.

I've said many times before during the travel season every route can do well. But off season I expect TAM will be very concerned about how this will do.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1049 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 21):

JJ should just focus its activities on just two hubs, GRU and MAO, and just abandon these silly focus cities. They should expand or build a new airport at MAO, were it can become JJ's second hub. MAO is perfectly located to be a hub for north central, east and west Brazil. In many ways its geographically better suited to be a hub than GRU is, because from MAO you can access all of Brazil. So JJ should just dismantle its focus cities at CNF, BSB, and GIG and just focus on two hubs.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 22):
JJ should just focus its activities on just two hubs, GRU and MAO, and just abandon these silly focus cities. They should expand or build a new airport at MAO, were it can become JJ's second hub. MAO is perfectly located to be a hub for north central, east and west Brazil. In many ways its geographically better suited to be a hub than GRU is, because from MAO you can access all of Brazil. So JJ should just dismantle its focus cities at CNF, BSB, and GIG and just focus on two hubs.

That idea is even sillier than building a hub at BIL.You either don't have any notion about Brazilian geography or demography, or both.

I hope this population distribution map can shed some light on the matter:





[Edited 2010-09-30 13:29:03]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5501 times:

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 20):
I don't underestimate JJ's newest operation to MIA, I just think its huge impact will be on AA's (not on DL's) operation to BSB.

It will have an impact on AA's operations, make no mistake. It is throwing a lot of capacity into the market in a short time.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 20):
since ATL offers the best connections to destinations different of Florida.

Miami offers the same exact connections to destinations outside of Florida. Every destination of significance from BSB to the U.S. can easily be reached one-stop via Miami. The fact remains that Brasilia-U.S. is a very small market and most of the demand is just going to Miami. When you overfly the single largest O&D market, things become very difficult, as Delta learned with Recife, Fortaleza and soon-to-be-discontinued Manaus. And both Recife and Manaus have more demand to/from the U.S. than Brasilia.



a.
25 LipeGIG : Still, there's market for both.. see below. I see space for both. As i mentioned, at least at the current US$/R$ situation. We're on the same environ
26 incitatus : Like you said it does not offer connections at MIA. But at MAO TAM is collecting passengers from BSB, BEL, FOR and some other cities. In the times of
27 MAH4546 : I'm a little surprised that TAM has not gone for this yet. In theory, it seems to make more sense to have a monopoly on MIA-FOR than add competition
28 LipeGIG : Agree 100% MCO is the third largest O&D from GIG just behind MIA and NYC. I do believe TAM can sustain 11x weekly service to MCO and 2x daily on
29 C010T3 : I disagree. We saw what happened with TAP expanding in Brazil. AA is slowly doing the same for the US. If it wasn't possible to stop TAP's dominance,
30 C010T3 : TAM is all about tit-for-tat. The only route that TAM has ever opened without the tit-for-tat motivation was GIG-JFK and even that was pre-emptive, s
31 LipeGIG : Well, TAP have a different business model, they do not have a huge operation to one point like AA. They rely on single flights to more destinations w
32 C010T3 : Yes, that's because the market to MIA is larger than to LIS. Neither carrier would survive well in a battle for LIS, but competition to MIA will not
33 SJOtoLIR : It was scheduled in the past as JJ MIA-MAO-BEL-FOR 7x weekly with 320. Regards.
34 incitatus : I understand your logic but I question this statement. These are good times in USA-Brazil and I not believe there is enough demand in these markets t
35 airlineexpert : According to AA's own statistics, over half of the traffic on MIA-CNF comes from other than MIA/BOS/NYC. DL carries (not surprisingly) about 3% of its
36 SCL767 : Especially when LAN is close to launching domestic flights with-in Colombia by the end of this year. LAN will eventually need to operate more interna
37 C010T3 : I was not considering a joint-venture in my arguments.
38 MAH4546 : Correct. CNF traffic is more spread out because it has a significant VFR component that BSB does not. The bigger VFR markets have traffic more spread
39 incitatus : Does that make the failure of JJ's CNF-MIA likely?
40 MAH4546 : Not necessarily. Make no mistake, MIA is still the largest market to/from CNF and MIA-CNF is still a larger market than MIA-BSB. I think it's almost
41 Rafabozzolla : Could we interpret this flight (especially BSB-MIA) as a way to funnel connections from the NE and the Midwest (Centro Oeste) and free up capacity at
42 LipeGIG : Yes, but also to create more of the local market to MIA. With the non-stop, more people look to travel. Thats why Mark, MIA is investing in Brazil a
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