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USAirways To Add Europe Service From Phoenix?  
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16981 times:

When will USAirways put its hat into the ring and add a PHX-Europe flight to Frankfurt or another major destination? With all of its connections through PHX and tie in with major Star Alliance carriers through FRA why does PHX not have a European flight on USAirways NON-STOP from Phoenix. BA has kept the daily flight to London since July 1, 1996 (well it was 4 days a week when it first started) so there obviously is demand and with the connection network already established at PHX this would be an ideal market.

Yes LH pulled out years ago, or is it that there is only enough of a market at PHX for (1) daily European flight.

If USAirways was to start a PHX-Europe flight what city(ies) would make the most logical sense?

Cheers,
BP1


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16905 times:

Frankfurt would be the obvious choice, but with the way the economy still is in Phoenix along the widebody deliveries pushed back so far now, I doubt you'll be seeing anything within the next three years. They're definitely not in a hurry to launch that or any other new route out of here.


Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8379 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16724 times:

I suspect one reason is lack of appropriate aircraft. A flight from PHX to Europe would have to departure PHX in the heat of the day (see LAX departure times for comparison). IIRC, the only aircraft in US's fleet that can do it is the A332.

User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7780 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16633 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 1):
Frankfurt would be the obvious choice, but with the way the economy still is in Phoenix along the widebody deliveries pushed back so far now, I doubt you'll be seeing anything within the next three years. They're definitely not in a hurry to launch that or any other new route out of here.

Assuming US doesn't get swallowed up in the latest round of merger mania I cannot see any long haul out of Phoenix until the A350 comes online. So still quite a few years out.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently onlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5679 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16442 times:

Quoting BP1 (Thread starter):
If USAirways was to start a PHX-Europe flight what city(ies) would make the most logical sense?
Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
Assuming US doesn't get swallowed up in the latest round of merger mania I cannot see any long haul out of Phoenix until the A350 comes online. So still quite a few years out.

I would say nothing happening until the A350 comes online, then maybe a 332 would be freed up to o such a route, and like most posters have said PHX - FRA would make the most sense.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16331 times:

It's hard to look out to far given the current environment, so to predict when PHX might get European service on US seems difficult at best. I imagine them focusing much more on solidifying their east coast operations, as these appear to have the most value to a potential suitor. PHX will simply be the western hub that fills a role right up until someone decides it is no longer needed.

I haven't heard of any interest in PHX on behalf of other carriers since UA wanted to buy HP as an asset-grab (aircraft), CO did some code-sharing, or my own personal fantasy of NW+HP. Otherwise, PHX, seems like an albatross around the neck of any other legacy. IMHO.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2869 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16299 times:

US is focused on building up transatlantic ops out of CLT right now. PHX is a distant afterthought.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinecrjflyer35 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 668 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16241 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 6):
PHX is a distant afterthought.

Yeah, compared to PHL and CLT, we usually are....

PHX-BHX by way of AZO....you heard it here first!   



Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
User currently onlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5679 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16206 times:

Quoting crjflyer35 (Reply 7):
PHX-BHX by way of AZO....you heard it here first!

Nahh...let's do PHX-CAI-ATH!! Look, three Star Alliance hubs in one!      



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3080 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16121 times:

It is my belief that LH was looking to restart services at PHX. Then the US merger came along, and I believe US and LH agreed it would be best if US flew the route. I believe to this day, LH is still waiting in PHX for US to come along and announce the route.


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently onlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15977 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
Assuming US doesn't get swallowed up in the latest round of merger mania I cannot see any long haul out of Phoenix until the A350 comes online. So still quite a few years out.

The A350s won't be online until at least 2017. It wouldn't surprise me if they did take that long, however, the optimist in me sees that they will have eight new A330s by the end of 2014. Then again, there are 767s that need replacing at some point...so whatever the case, it's definitely going to be a while.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15910 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):
Then the US merger came along, and I believe US and LH agreed it would be best if US flew the route.

As US Airways and Lufthansa do not have ATI, this is illegal collusion. They cannot cooperate and collude like this.



a.
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3080 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15485 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 9):
Then the US merger came along, and I believe US and LH agreed it would be best if US flew the route.

As US Airways and Lufthansa do not have ATI, this is illegal collusion. They cannot cooperate and collude like this.

Then why hasn't LH started the route? The route would perform better if fellow *A member, US flew the route. LH and US both know that. That is why LH won't restart the route, they are simply waiting for US to start it. Which they, will, eventually.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15449 times:
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USair has some A330-200 flying to Tel Aviv from PHL, why ? Those planes should be flying from PHoenix to FRA. PHX not having Europe in its schedule is a major mistake by US management.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15439 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
As US Airways and Lufthansa do not have ATI, this is illegal collusion. They cannot cooperate and collude like this.

So strict... The story seemed plausible to me. However, the route is probably less likely now than 3 years ago.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):
Which they, will, eventually.

They have the aircraft now. Especially with US rumored to consider exiting Star, it seems like this is a wait and see route.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15385 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):

Then why hasn't LH started the route? The route would perform better if fellow *A member, US flew the route. LH and US both know that. That is why LH won't restart the route, they are simply waiting for US to start it. Which they, will, eventually.

Lufthansa hasn't started it because, quite simply, Phoenix is a low-yielding market, even more so to Europe. Why send a plane to Phoenix when it can make more money adding frequency to Los Angeles?



a.
User currently onlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15309 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
USair has some A330-200 flying to Tel Aviv from PHL, why ?

TLV performs very well for US from what I've heard. Given that, there is no way they'd pull it to operate PHX-FRA.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently onlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5679 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
USair has some A330-200 flying to Tel Aviv from PHL, why ? Those planes should be flying from PHoenix to FRA. PHX not having Europe in its schedule is a major mistake by US management.

TLV is a MUCH more higher yielding route than any lower-fare and lower-quality route from PHX to Europe.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14998 times:

I could see that when the A350s come online you could see PHX-FRA and PHX-NRT to connect with the two largest partners in those regions. I can't imagine much else.

Maybe to get an old 744 and run it to Asia and Europe...    Oh the memories.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3080 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14774 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 16):
TLV performs very well for US from what I've heard. Given that, there is no way they'd pull it to operate PHX-FRA.

It does indeed do well. I can see it going 2x in the future. I believe US has a future in the Middle Eastern market.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
As US Airways and Lufthansa do not have ATI, this is illegal collusion. They cannot cooperate and collude like this.

So strict... The story seemed plausible to me. However, the route is probably less likely now than 3 years ago.

Thank You Flighty! I have to agree, they would have started it by now. First they said 2010..



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14679 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 19):
Quoting wn676 (Reply 16):
TLV performs very well for US from what I've heard. Given that, there is no way they'd pull it to operate PHX-FRA.

It does indeed do well. I can see it going 2x in the future. I believe US has a future in the Middle Eastern market.

Such as? The hub size/scope combined with local markets at PHL and CLT make anything beyond Tel Aviv impossible.



a.
User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3469 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 14623 times:

Yeah i agree i think that US could make PHX-FRA work if they really wanted or needed it to.

I guess the way they look at is, the route would cannibalize PHL/CLT to an extent from West Coast passengers. I wish they would try it though. DL makes SLC-CDG/NRT work off connections and LH/UA make DEN-FRA work off connections. I bet US could do the same if they really wanted to. I guess the real question is would there be the premium traffic exists to make it profitable. I would assume theres premium traffic between PHX and FRA are there many business links?

I know its not Europe but what about PHX-NRT? Maybe is there alot of traffic heading west? With no hubs to the west it makes some sense but would require a major commitment by US. Even to start it seasonally for a few years to build the route i think US would need to be really patient and make it work, so a major commitment is essential.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3080 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14484 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Such as? The hub size/scope combined with local markets at PHL and CLT make anything beyond Tel Aviv impossible.



IST and CAI is theoretically a Middle Eastern Destination, and possibly, once they get there A350s, India.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinequadagon From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14447 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Such as?

Most likely PHL-Cairo and PHL-Istanbul are next. Other than that I don't see much more, DOH? DXB?



If you dont pay your exorsist, do you get reposessed?
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32789 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14250 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 22):
IST and CAI is theoretically a Middle Eastern Destination, and possibly, once they get there A350s, India.

India? Seriously? US Airways needs to figure out how to make China or Japan work, first. It also needs to find an ATI partner to make destinations like Istanbul (in Europe) and Cairo (in Africa) work.



a.
25 USAirALB : Yeah. I'm serious. And IST can definitely work.
26 Post contains images airbazar : I don't think so. Even when LH flew to PHX the flight was operated by Condor, that's how low yield the destination is. And LH had (has?) a staff trai
27 wn676 : There aren't many business links that I can think of off hand, and Phoenix in general is weak in terms of premium traffic. Lufthansa didn't last here
28 wn676 : As I recall the flight started and ended on Lufthansa A340s with Condor (or maybe it was Lauda) operating for a short period in the middle.[Edited 20
29 PHX Flyer : Well, it lasted three years after all - from 3/2001 thru 2/2004. The flight was operated by Lufthansa A340, not by Condor. There is ample proof for t
30 JDFlyVC10 : HEY... Some body go to Mojave and see if PH-BUA or PH-BUC are still being held together with glue? Those KL/HP birds would be GREAT from PHX!!!!
31 Post contains links and images MAH4546 : There is also ample proof it was operated by Condor with a 767. View Large View MediumPhoto © Morris Biondi Well, keep dreaming then. India isn't ha
32 AR385 : What about the operational issues? Does US currently have the equipment to lift a full load out of PHX in the middle of summer? Can the A330 do this w
33 Hirnie : LH used to operate the 340 to PHX. At a point they switched to Condor 767 as yields where too low. At this time US will not start PHX - FRA as there a
34 bobnwa : Do you seriously think that the US planners don't have access to info that you don't have access to, that would show that using the 330-200 from PHL-
35 PHX Flyer : If my eyes are not deceiving me, it says Lufthansa on the fuselage. Lufthansa may have leased equipment from other subsidiaries on occasion, but none
36 Post contains images deltal1011man : Because they don't think it is worth the aircraft? Like Mark said, why start the low-yielding city that is PHX when you can add a flight to LAX/SFO/D
37 jreuschl : How are the loads on PHX-LHR on BA?
38 MAH4546 : Indeed, it was Lauda Air. Not much of a difference - same basic idea behind it. Indeed, it was used on Miami-Munich for a short while, a route which
39 jfk777 : OF course route planners have access to more info but, why are all international flight from PHL and a few from CLT ? With the presence US has in Pho
40 airbazar : Yes is started out that way and it was a complete failure. LH then had Condor operate the flight for them in an attempt to hold on to it (a friend of
41 WesternA318 : Too funny...ahh, the good old Cactus days... Aside from LH, what other Star Alliance partners would be a good ATI candidate for US?
42 deltal1011man : The same reason Delta has 95% of its TATL network via JFK and ATL......AA with JFK/ORD UA with IAD/ORD CO with EWR. Location. if BA weren't in PHX-LH
43 MAH4546 : US Airways can't just have ATI with LH. It needs to join the entireity of the ATI alliance to have ATI. So it would be the immunized Star airlines, w
44 WesternA318 : Thanks for the clairification, I had no idea how the ATI works.
45 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I think that BA has good loads on the flight and is making money since they have stuck with the market for so long with little downgrades. i think th
46 AirNZ : Perhaps, but when did little technicalities such as the law ever stop airlines colluding? However, your point is also a very fine line on whether act
47 OA412 : Why? Do you have data to support your assertion that a 332 is better utilized on PHX-Europe than on PHL-TLV? And why should they be flying PHX-FRA? I
48 wn676 : Indeed, although it only lasted for a few months before the 340 came back. Really not the ideal time for a carrier to be establishing themselves on a
49 PHX Flyer : Did I ever dispute that? I don't think so. What I said was that ATI is not a prerequisite for a successful transatlantic operation. I suppose that's
50 brandonfsu05 : At least in CLT...I notice in Immigration that among the foreigners (they are the only people I speak with) out of FRA, LGW, MUC together...maybe 60
51 MAH4546 : Continental has done so out of an absolutely huge O&D market that accounts for 1 of 4 U.S.-Europe passengers with a vastly excellent domestic con
52 jfk777 : IF this is your conclusion all flights to Europe should go through JFK. The last 30 years have shown us when a new city inauguates service to Europe
53 777STL : Good enough that it hasn't been downgauged to a 772, or at least very rarely does it happen. It's a mature market for BA - they've invested a lot of
54 TUNisia : I personally saw a LH A340 land at PHX in January of 2004. It was a nice sight!
55 deltal1011man : And Delta did the same but here is the problem, when DL/CO built(even US built PHL) only one carrier had ATI and the two big boys (DL and CO) didn't.
56 EricR : DOMESTICALLY speaking, PHX is a low yielding market because 80% of the flights out of the market are on LCCs (WN, US, B6, FL, F9, etc.). This is prob
57 Post contains images PHX Flyer : God knows it can't! Phoenix has so much more natural beauty ... Joking aside, noone, including myself has stated that PHX would or could grow to beco
58 usflyer msp : PHX is low yield. Most itnl travelers to PHX are holidaymakers that pay as little as possible. Very little of the traffic is f & j fare paying bus
59 jfk777 : IF there is one reason A330's don't fly for US to PHX its that. The US west pilots are not A330 pilots for Usairways. Whatever the performance of PHL
60 Viscount724 : And OS, BD and TP (also CO pending merger completion).
61 nyc2theworld : Actually even before the merger was announced CO was given ATI approval.
62 chepos : LHR-PHX performs well in the winter (English people coming to Arizona and the Southwest), and PHX-LHR performs well in the summer (Americans headed to
63 Viscount724 : Thanks. That's what I meant. I should have said "until" instead of "pending". I meant that CO would obviously be deleted from the ATI group once the
64 Post contains links PHX Flyer : The city of Phoenix is constantly working on new international routes. It is a tedious process, but every once a while, there is a bit of progress. I
65 vv701 : Is PHX a low yield destination? In the last 7 days of September BA operated LHR-PHX with 5 744 flights with the aircraft configured to carry up to 33
66 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : IF US wanted to fly the routes they could get the pilots there one way or another. Could the US 767s fly from PHX to Europe say London, CDG, AMS, or F
67 deltal1011man : PHX-FRA is easy on the 332. SLC would be easy on the 763 if they added 2,000-3,000 feet to the runway. Yes. US has more thrust on there 332s than DL.
68 Viscount724 : Your fare data only considers LHR-PHX O&D traffic. I expect a high percentage (possibly most) passengers on those flights are connecting to/from
69 vv701 : In practice what you say could apply to a greater or lesser extent to any TATL flights out of LHR. For example while it is true that I do not know th
70 Viscount724 : There has been a great deal of discussion in earlier threads where the point was made that PHX is a generally lower-yield US destination due to much
71 EricR : There has been a lot of discussion about this in previous threads, but people on this forum are guessing at this. People automatically assume the int
72 EricR : Great information. Part of the reason for the fare premium that PHX has over LAX is due to the competition. Only one non-stop flight from PHX, versus
73 vv701 : Why would any airline gradually build up and expand a service like BA has built up and expanded the LON-PHX service over a period of almost 20 years
74 Post contains links MAH4546 : When a route does "fine," it doesn't require a $650,000 incentive package more than a decade after it was introduced. http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/
75 EricR : There are several things about this article that you need to consider: 1.) The money is used towards MARKETING the route and NOT towards subsidizing
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