thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1964 posts, RR: 11 Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11313 times:
I found the following article (sorry, french only) about AC wanting to start more routes out of YUL and how pleased they are with the results of its new international line-up, namely the new flights to GVA, BRU, ATH, BCN (and the resumption of FCO)
On certain days, the flights to Barcelona had more Americans than Canadians.
On certain days this summer, the majority of passengers on YUL-GVA were connecting onto BEY.
YUL-ATH and YUL-BCN averaged a load factor of 90%, which is high for new routes, especially considering the impact of the recession in Greece (and the not so ideal conditions in Spain either !). AC is so pleased with both these routes that it will increase the season in which these flights operate next year.
BRU also exceeded expectations. AC had planned to operate this flight daily summertime and 4x weekly wintertime, but as of next year, it should go daily year-round, thanks in no small part to its Star Alliance partner SN Brussels, which codeshares the flight and offers excellent connections to points beyond.
As for the new routes, AC wishes to open YUL-BEY and some North African destinations (maybe Casablanca, Tunis or Cairo)
The article also states AC's interest in serving Johannesburg and Guangzhou, but from another AC hub (obviously ! No market to these places from YUL)
[Edited 2010-10-01 10:06:47]
[Edited 2010-10-01 10:07:20]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11272 times:
"The article also states AC's interest in serving Johannesburg and Guangzhou, but from another AC hub (obviously ! No market to these places from YUL)"
YVR-CAN is a given
YYZ-JNB is freaking 8304mi. It would be the 5th longest route in the world if launched today. A 77L can handle it, but not full payload. It's only slightly shorter than DXB-LAX. AC better make sure there's a large enough O&D load on this route to make it worthwhile, cuz AC will totally be bleeding if it's filled with people transiting.
pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11199 times:
I do know more China flights will be added to YVR and some to YYZ. The volume of travelers from China is increasing dramatically.
I have been expecting AC to add a flight to somewhere in Africa with an easier connection to South Africa. Maybe if the rumoured merger of the the African carriers and tie in with LH this will be a no brainer.
I definitely can see a BEY and quite possibly a Cairo addition to YUL.
United_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7159 posts, RR: 8 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11153 times:
Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter): On certain days this summer, the majority of passengers on YUL-GVA were connecting onto BEY
Who were they continuing on with,Swiss ? MEA?
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3125 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11012 times:
And it could only get better if AC had better connecting traffic into YUL from the US.
Connecting to these flights from the Southern US usually involves a "detour" via YYZ, a la IAH-YYZ-YUL-BRU, which is even worse on the return leg in as much as it requires clearing Canadian and US immigrations.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10923 times:
I am pleased to see that these routes are doing well as I think YUL has not been used to its potential previously. The BRU route seemed like an obvious winner with SN in *A so I am not at all surprised to see that do well .
@ Thenoflyzone - I am curious about the exclamation in the title ? It looks as though the success of these routes has come as something of a shock to you , were you expecting them to perform very poorly ? If so , would you mind sharing your thoughts behind that point of view - thanks .
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
airceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10929 times:
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 2): YYZ-JNB is freaking 8304mi. It would be the 5th longest route in the world if launched today. A 77L can handle it, but not full payload. It's only slightly shorter than DXB-LAX. AC better make sure there's a large enough O&D load on this route to make it worthwhile, cuz AC will totally be bleeding if it's filled with people transiting.
I strongly suspect that AC will pursue YYZ-JNB. I even blogged about it (http://airceo.com/89p). As you say a 77L can do it but my suspicion is that it will be a proving ground for the 787.
airceo
blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
jetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 410 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10806 times:
Quoting airceo (Reply 8): I strongly suspect that AC will pursue YYZ-JNB. I even blogged about it (http://airceo.com/89p). As you say a 77L can do it but my suspicion is that it will be a proving ground for the 787.
With Senegal being so generous as an African stopping ground, what about a YYZ-DKR-JNB routing?
airceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10651 times:
Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 9): With Senegal being so generous as an African stopping ground, what about a YYZ-DKR-JNB routing?
Don't get me wrong a same plane service with fuel stop in DKR could work - SA have been doing this for years to the US - but a non-stop service on the 787 would blow the competition out of the water. It would crush any existing one-stop possibility. It would be a shorter trip and let's not forget the every toughening visa restrictions being placed on South African nationals. Transiting through the US/Europe is increasingly less desirable.
airceo
blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
United_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7159 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10651 times:
Quoting airceo (Reply 8): I strongly suspect that AC will pursue YYZ-JNB
I would hate to be stuck in a middle seat in Y for that one
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10592 times:
Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter): On certain days, the flights to Barcelona had more Americans than Canadians.
On certain days this summer, the majority of passengers on YUL-GVA were connecting onto BEY.
YUL-ATH and YUL-BCN averaged a load factor of 90%, which is high for new routes, especially considering the impact of the recession in Greece (and the not so ideal conditions in Spain either !). AC is so pleased with both these routes that it will increase the season in which these flights operate next year.
BRU also exceeded expectations. AC had planned to operate this flight daily summertime and 4x weekly wintertime, but as of next year, it should go daily year-round, thanks in no small part to its Star Alliance partner SN Brussels, which codeshares the flight and offers excellent connections to points beyond.
As for the new routes, AC wishes to open YUL-BEY and some North African destinations (maybe Casablanca, Tunis or Cairo)
The article also states AC's interest in serving Johannesburg and Guangzhou, but from another AC hub (obviously ! No market to these places from YUL)
GVA no surprise. UN has a 2nd tier HQ there, ICAO is HQ'd in YUL and is a UN agency, hence potential for decent J travel. Onward traffic to BEY also no surprise, and BEY will grow even more when/if it goes non-stop.
BRU was there in the past, but with SN feeding/taking onwards within *, only make sit work better. If an A333 goes onto route next summer, it has to mean something else gets downgauged to a 763. Which route might that be ?
Casablance & Tunis I think might pleasantly surprise a lot of North American travellers. I've been to Casablance and it is a beautiful place. Jsut don't criticize the King.
YVR-CAN I thought was already slated to go next spring. That would require a 763 from, well shucks, BRU ?
JNB for now I think is a stretch due to payload limitations on the 77l as indicated, and also due to very good cnx in FRA with LH's services, both to JNB and CPT.
GSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10565 times:
With AC's growing transatlantic operations, I wonsder if this could be the trigger for additional transborder flights to feed them. As is now, I think there's: Los Angeles, Denver, New York/LaGuardia, Chicago/O'Hare, Houston, Newark, Hartford, Washington/National, Washington/Dulles, Fort Lauderdale, and Orlando. Seasonally, there's also San Francisco, Phoenix, Miami, Tampa, Fort Myers, and West Palm Beach. In the past there was also Atlanta and Philadelphia with CRJs. While it is never going to be Toronto, I could see them adding back a few routes and maybe making something like SFO and maybe PHX and MIA year round.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10445 times:
Quoting airceo (Reply 10): Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 9):
With Senegal being so generous as an African stopping ground, what about a YYZ-DKR-JNB routing?
Don't get me wrong a same plane service with fuel stop in DKR could work - SA have been doing this for years to the US - but a non-stop service on the 787 would blow the competition out of the water.
There's no current bilateral between Canada and Senegal so no service to DKR is possible for the time being.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 13): GVA no surprise. UN has a 2nd tier HQ there, ICAO is HQ'd in YUL and is a UN agency, hence potential for decent J travel.
GVA is also the location of IATA's executive offices and several hundred staff. YUL is their head office and many departments are based there.
SR4ever From Luxembourg, joined Mar 2010, 766 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10322 times:
Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter): BRU also exceeded expectations. AC had planned to operate this flight daily summertime and 4x weekly wintertime, but as of next year, it should go daily year-round, thanks in no small part to its Star Alliance partner SN Brussels, which codeshares the flight and offers excellent connections to points beyond.
Here you can really feel the vacuum which Sabena left when collapsing in 2001. At that time, SN would fly BRU-YUL daily with a 333, and the yields were reportedly good.
Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter): As for the new routes, AC wishes to open YUL-BEY and some North African destinations (maybe Casablanca, Tunis or Cairo)
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10240 times:
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16): YUL-BEY would make sense indeed, but which frame would be relevant there? 763?
It was goiing to be a 763 when they were within a month or so of starting YUL-BEY service a few years ago, before the Canadian government withdrew permission, apparently under pressure from the US government for security-related reasons.
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 16): YUL-CMN would also be quite relevant, given the closer ties of Canada and Morocco.
With AT's nonstop service I can't see room for 2 carriers. And almost no high-yield traffic.
Additionally, AC serves Boston and Las Vegas from YUL.
For some reason AC doesn't compete to many of the major U.S. hubs (PHI/MIA/DET/ATL) from YUL. These markets are soley served by U.S. legacy carriers and tend to have from 3 to 6 daily flights, mostly via regional jets.
9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1344 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10186 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17): t was goiing to be a 763 when they were within a month or so of starting YUL-BEY service a few years ago, before the Canadian government withdrew permission, apparently under pressure from the US government for security-related reasons.
If my memory is correct,the authority was revoked the day before the service was to commence and the flight was booked to capacity.
GSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10105 times:
Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 18): Additionally, AC serves Boston and Las Vegas from YUL.
For some reason AC doesn't compete to many of the major U.S. hubs (PHI/MIA/DET/ATL) from YUL. These markets are soley served by U.S. legacy carriers and tend to have from 3 to 6 daily flights, mostly via regional jets.
I forgot about those two.
I'm actually kind of surprised that AC can't make YUL-SFO work on a year round basis; it's a hub-hub route. I'm guessing that they use the capacity from that in part for the increased Florida/Arizona/Sunshine flying in the dead middle of winter.
YUL-DTW probably isn't big enough for two carriers, and DL has the much stronger hub on their end. Most of the MIA traffic is served via FLL or AA's 738s. That leaves Atlanta and Philadelphia; the former is probably too long to be an effective CRJ route, and a CRA or E75 is probably too much capacity. Philadelphia, on the other hand, would seem to make sense as a 1X/2X daily CRJ or DH1 route; especially since AC doesn't codehare with US on the route.
Pittsburgh might also work as a daily CRJ or Dash flight if timed for the international connections though I'd expect to see upgauges to Toronto first (though several large Pittsburgh based corporations have significant Quebec operations- ie: Alcoa, US Steel, HJ Heinz, and WESCO).
MEA330 From Lebanon, joined Aug 2002, 268 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10077 times:
The AC/ME codeshare has taken a lot of passengers away from AF this summer. This should not affect its long term relationship with AF, and the possibility of joining SkyTeam.
MEA is also cooperating with another * airline: SN Brussels on various BRU-Africa routes. MEA's BRU route is now 3 weekly year round. Too bad AC's YUL flight timing does not allow connections on the MEA BEY flight from BRU.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8270 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10067 times:
Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 18): For some reason AC doesn't compete to many of the major U.S. hubs (PHI/MIA/DET/ATL) from YUL. These markets are soley served by U.S. legacy carriers and tend to have from 3 to 6 daily flights, mostly via regional jets.
AC used to operate MIA-YUL up to 3x daily; now the route is at 3x weekly. WestJet's success at FLL has certainly affected AC operations at MIA.
thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1964 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9895 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7): @ Thenoflyzone - I am curious about the exclamation in the title ? It looks as though the success of these routes has come as something of a shock to you , were you expecting them to perform very poorly ? If so , would you mind sharing your thoughts behind that point of view - thanks .
It didn't come as a shock, i just wanted to post this information and see what everyone thinks about it.
My bet is on CAI or TUN. Since MS left, we could easily see a 3 weekly seasonal YUL-CAI service on B763, or the same thing for YUL-TUN.
TU has been wanting to serve YUL for some time now, but they just don't have the aircraft for it. Three A332's are on order, but don't know when they will be delivered.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 22): AC used to operate MIA-YUL up to 3x daily; now the route is at 3x weekly. WestJet's success at FLL has certainly affected AC operations at MIA.
It doesn't help that AA flies MIA-YUL 2 to 3x daily either, and offers connections to the Carribean and South America.
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
25 flyingalex: I'm not surprised that AC is finally considering Canada-BEY. I flew FRA-BEY on LH in March 2006 and most of the Business Class passengers and a sizeab
26 thenoflyzone: AC has been wanting to serve BEY since 2003, and as 9252fly stated, they were 1 day away from starting service when the Canadian Government revoked t
27 kiwiandrew: Thanks for posting , it is interesting info ( though I am still puzzled what the exclamation mark was for ?) Anyway , I hope to see a slow but steady
28 SCL767: Nope, AA and AC coexisted together at MIA for years. WestJet's decision to launch multiple flights into FLL from
29 brilondon: AC has a far superior seating to anything else in the Americas and I would not at all object to a 787 middle seat. Although I would prefer a window s
30 SCL767: Hopefully AC will be able to operate both YYZ-SCL and YYZ-EZE as stand-alone services in the future with their new B787s. IMO, LAN will eventually op
31 flyguy89: Interesting article and glad to see these new routes are working out for AC from YUL, a 90% load factor is indeed impressive with all the current fina
32 Viscount724: YUL-FLL has a lot of service compared to MIA because that's where most Quebec residents want to go. FLL is the largest O&D Florida market from Qu
33 SCL767: YUL-BEY ain't happening. The best alternative IMO is with AF or RJ: YUL-CDG-BEY or YUL-AMM-BEY. That is a given, but, since WestJet launched services
34 SurfandSnow: Great news for YUL! Montreal used to have all kinds of intercontinental services (though, to be fair, much of it probably due to aircraft range limita
35 thenoflyzone: Mostly to add effect ! (see, i just did it again ) Thenoflyzone
36 thenoflyzone: True, but routes like YUL-CMN, YUL-ALG, YUL-TUN and YUL-CAI are mostly O&D routes no? Onward connectivity might not be as important. Thenoflyzone
37 MAH4546: Westjet also has FLL-YQB this year. It should be noted that Montreal has more capacity to MIA during the summer, but more capacity to FLL during the
38 yegbey01: They could reduce it to 4 or 5 per week . MEA has been flying to GVA for many many years, and they recently added capacity (larger aircraft and daily
39 SR4ever: YUL-CAI serves the hub of MS, now a major player within Star Alliance, even though an overall product upgrade is needed at MS. Could YUL-SGN work wit
40 FLYYUL: There is a large contingent of BEY on the GVA flight, but it's not the majority of pax. If anything, it helps to sustain when local demand dries up in
41 Skywatcher: If I ran AC I would try YUL to CLE and PIT (CRJ200) in order to give those U.S. cities new alternatives to Europe via AC at YUL (assuming they were pr
42 behramjee: The Turkish Airlines Manager in Toronto is telling travel agents that TK will be launching 3 weekly IST-YUL flights with an A 332 from April 2011. I f
43 longhauler: AC (Jazz) flies from both CLE and PIT to YYZ, where a lot of European destinations are offered. I would imagine all other Star Alliance members offer
44 Skywatcher: Naturally there are many connecting choices from CLE/PIT to many European cities via BOS/JFK/EWR/IAD and even YYZ but I'm wondering if certain Europe
45 PITrules: I think a Dash-8 on PIT-YUL would work if timed for overseas connections. PIT-YYZ is up to 4x daily in the summer. Of historical interest, British Ai
46 yenne09: Air Canada is trying for many years to serve Beyrouth because there is a large population of lebanese people living in the greater Montreal area. The
47 FLYYUL: Where there is smoke, there is fire.. well at least most of the time.
48 sunrisevalley: It is shorter than ATL-JNB by about 100nm DL seem to handle JNB-ATL pretty well with the 77L. Longhauler... to get your attention .. any chance of ge
49 Viscount724: I've always been curious how they got away with that. Sixth freedom operations normally require a change of flight number in the country where the ca
50 ktachiya: It is a given but this was rumoured ever since I joined A.net back in 2005 but never finalized. It is surprising that CZ didn't show interest in the
51 lychemsa: I flew AC from New York to Geneva.Never again. Customs in YUL is a pain in the neck; if you miss your connection to Europe there is a risk of spending
52 AirNovaBAe146: Your mileage may vary, but give me AC any day over any US legacy carrier for European flight connections. AC's product and service beat them all. Plu
53 Skywatcher: I agree that going through Canadian customs can be a slow, de-personalizing affair. This is however exactly the same as going through U.S. customs (mi
54 FLYYUL: Look, we get it! you've made your point. I'm sure the thousands of other connecting customers per day that make their transit without a hassle share
55 CptGirmayTesfa: Is it confirmed that Tunisair will come to Montreal?
56 ManekS: AC really ought to start flights to SIN. There are no connections between Singapore and Canada which is very surprising since there seems to be a lot
57 SCL767: I expect that WS will continue to add other seasonal and/or year-round routes at FLL and MIA, e.g. YYC-FLL, YXE-FLL, YWG-FLL, YUL-MIA, etc. AA MIA-YU
58 longhauler: MIA as a stand-alone destination in Florida doesn't make sense when you also fly to SRQ, RSW, TPA, FLL, PBI and MCO. It is a very price conscious mar
59 2travel2know2: A possible AC Canada - JNB flight with stop in West Africa faces some problems. YYZ-JNB is an English-speaking route, if DKR or ABJ is the stop, the
60 connies4ever: AC used to operate YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN intially 3x with an L-1011 (-500 I believe), then for a while 744. It was 4x weekly for a while. However, I don't
61 KrisYYZ: Has AC looked into expanding to Eastern Europe? YYZ lost flights to PRG and BUD. YUL lost PRG. Would a YYZ-YUL-BUD or PRG work? KrisYYZ
62 ManekS: SQ stopped this route sometime last year due to issues with the Korean authorities. That's why I said there are no carriers operating a direct flight
63 airceo: It could but I feel that LH is so strong in that neck of the woods that flying YYZ-YUL-PRG on AC rather than YYZ-FRA-PRG on a mix of AC and LH is far
64 connies4ever: ManekS - many thanks, I was not aware that SQ had stopped the service into YVR. I think with the fantastic growth evident in SIN that air service bet
65 WildcatYXU: I don't really think so. There were many people on the MA and OK flights connecting in BUD and PRG to other CEE destinations. They wouldn't have this
66 thenoflyzone: Which is why the route will most likely operate non stop. As sunrisevalley (post 48) was saying, DL seems to handle JNB-ATL pretty well with its B77L
67 Kaiarahi: And it may do even better if Germany persists in imposing a green tax on pax and people travelling to North-Rhine-Westphalia (the most densely popula
68 Viscount724: I doubt it. Canada-SIN O&D traffic is very small and SIN's geographical location (it's too far south) doesn't make it an ideal connecting hub for
69 KrisYYZ: That is true. Something like 70% of MA 's YYZ-BUD flights were connecting pax, MA used that very fact to justify the cancelling of the TATL flights.
70 Skywatcher: Eastern Europe from YYZ/YUL is a bit of an inigma. It would appear to be a low yield market but is primarily being served by legacy carriers (high cos
71 yegbey01: The YYZ/YUL - PRG used to carry a lot of pax connecting to BEY. Many of my relatives have taken this flight many times and they liked the price too!!
72 WildcatYXU: Sorry, I don't understand this. What's wrong with connecting passengers? I honestly have no idea about the situation in general, but among my family
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