CrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1618 posts, RR: 42 Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12777 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
According to a Dutch news website, a Corendon 737 ran off runway 04/22 at AMS roughly an hour ago. It doesn't say overshoot, but it says the nose gear is in the mud.
My first question is why did they use RWY 04/22? That runway is hardly ever in use for commercial traffic? Does anybody have more info?
PHBUF From Netherlands, joined Mar 2009, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12648 times:
It's TC-TJF..I too do not understand too well why they (ATC) would use 22 as a landing runway..generation aviation and KLM Cityhopper I get, but 737s..
more info: it's CAI 603 from Dalaman to Amsterdam..aircraft has been evacuated, no injuries, aircraft will be towed away later tonight..
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4104 posts, RR: 13 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12595 times:
PHBUF From Netherlands, joined Mar 2009, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12513 times:
could be anything..late touchdown, too high airspeed, too late use of thrust reversers, too late deployment of spoilers, etc etc..or maybe they simply underestimated how short this runway really is
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4104 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12469 times:
My sister flew them from Istanbul to Eindhoven and had to take ground transportation to AMS where she was staying few years back, that is why I asked.
But this was a AYT-AMS flight I think.
mauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12352 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 7): Happens almost everyday. Weather a factor?
I know this happens alot, just curious how this particular accident happened. Seems it happened at the end of the runway.. the weather is pretty bad, but not stormy or so.. the pilot could have underestimated the lenght of the runway, since its hardly used for civil aviation, and only is 2015 meters long, compared to 3400/3800 meters of the other runways.
Quoting TK787 (Reply 7): no the flight originated in DLM (Dalaman)
A388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9071 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12304 times:
Quoting mauriceb (Reply 9): the pilot could have underestimated the lenght of the runway, since its hardly used for civil aviation, and only is 2015 meters long, compared to 3400/3800 meters of the other runways.
It seems you are mainly pointing to the pilot but maybe the ATC also shouldn't have send the aircraft to that runway under those stormy conditions(?). It could have well been an ATC error to begin with.
mauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12294 times:
Quoting A388 (Reply 10): It seems you are mainly pointing to the pilot but maybe the ATC also shouldn't have send the aircraft to that runway under those stormy conditions(?). It could have well been an ATC error to begin with.
A388
i'm not saying it was a pilot error, could also be that the ATC just didnt gave enough info.. the only reason they would use this runway for civil aviation IS because of the winds..
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4104 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12262 times:
Does anyone have more info about the usage of the runway for planes 737 or similar/bigger?
How many of them were asked to use it besides Corendon in that time period?
According to a statement from Corendon the flight had 166 pax ( pax + crew ???), no injuries, and it says the plane was off the runway by only 20 cm??? http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/15925409.asp?gid=373 (in Turkish)
Not great, but not 'bad' either and definately not 'stormy'. Under these conditions many airlines recommend autoland when available, or at least an autocoupled approach followed by a manual landing. Even on a wet runway a 737 should come to a standstill well before all 2014m are behind the aircraft.
This wil be another interesting one for the Dutch Safety Board.
mauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12210 times:
Quoting TK787 (Reply 13): Does anyone have more info about the usage of the runway for planes 737 or similar/bigger?
How many of them were asked to use it besides Corendon in that time period?
Look at this rader site, http://casper.frontier.nl/eham/ , go to 19:03 and u can see the Corendon plane landing... u can clearly see the KL F70 behind it abording the landing procedure...
Before the Corendon plane, a private jet + F70 landed..
Quoting pspfan (Reply 12):
FYI runway 04/22 at AMS can handle up to A321 aircraft and similar.
PSPfan
FYI, i never say'd it couldn't just that the pilot might have underestimated it, since they are used to land at 3300m+ runways at AMS
Speedbird128 From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1134 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12127 times:
Quoting A388 (Reply 10): It seems you are mainly pointing to the pilot but maybe the ATC also shouldn't have send the aircraft to that runway under those stormy conditions(?). It could have well been an ATC error to begin with.
A388
With all due respect, 2015m is *plenty* sufficient for a 737. I've seen 738's use less than that. Perhaps blame a botched landing.
If there was a tail wind, missed the touchdown point, or they were unstable then a missed approach should have been executed...
mauriceb From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12078 times:
Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 18): Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
It seems you are mainly pointing to the pilot but maybe the ATC also shouldn't have send the aircraft to that runway under those stormy conditions(?). It could have well been an ATC error to begin with.
A388
With all due respect, 2015m is *plenty* sufficient for a 737. I've seen 738's use less than that. Perhaps blame a botched landing.
If there was a tail wind, missed the touchdown point, or they were unstable then a missed approach should have been executed...
Dunno what the min. runway lenght is for the 737-400 on landing, but i know that, when fully loaded, it needs +-2400 meters on take-off...
Speedbird128 From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1134 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11969 times:
Quoting mauriceb (Reply 20): Dunno what the min. runway lenght is for the 737-400 on landing, but i know that, when fully loaded, it needs +-2400 meters...
Really?
I seem to recall otherwise... even with no reversers, on a wet runway with good braking action, it should stop in under 2015.
I know for MTOW (which is on take off, it needs more), but at MLW, it shouldn't...
I seem to recall otherwise... even with no reversers, on a wet runway with good braking action, it should stop in under 2015.
I know for MTOW (which is on take off, it needs more), but at MLW, it shouldn't...
sandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3382 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11896 times:
Quoting A388 (Reply 10): It seems you are mainly pointing to the pilot but maybe the ATC also shouldn't have send the aircraft to that runway under those stormy conditions(?). It could have well been an ATC error to begin with.
No.
The ultimate choice of runway lies with the flight crew and only the flight crew, so consequently its their responsibility that their runway of choice is adequate for safe operation. They are also responsible to gain enough knowledge and information to make such a decision, it's not ATCs responsibility to pass along information regarding performance related issues.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4039 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11896 times:
Quoting mauriceb (Reply 20): Dunno what the min. runway lenght is for the 737-400 on landing, but i know that, when fully loaded, it needs +-2400 meters on take-off...
Folks.. you can completely discount runway length as an issue (unless the PF thought he had another 1300 metres left...)
2000 metre runways are used plenty for 737 ops. Here in Ireland alone, Dublin's crosswind runway 16/34 is 2065 metres long, Cork Airport has 2100m, Kerry airport 2000m. In the UK, Bristol, Exeter, Southampton, Leeds and many others are all 737 bases and have runways around 2000m.....
It's really not an issue.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
25 A388: Well, we must know what the exact conditions were to see if the landing was executed properly or the ATC made the right decision. It's one thing to s
26 mauriceb: According to Correndon it was due to bad weather conditions... the plane slipped like 4 meters behind the runway, into the mud. So i keep on saying, e
27 TK787: Thanks for that, missed it by only 4 meters, oh well. I think 20 cm, is how deep it got stuck in mud, must have been a mis quote.
28 mauriceb: First picture i found: http://www.telegraaf.nl/jsp/foto_win...9/corendon_769343d.jpg&caption=Het
29 Speedbird128: Mine too - apologies Misread. According to my training, mlw max manual braking = ~1600m...
30 mauriceb: Yeah i just found a chart here from school, says the same lol. Since the plane was fully loaded+bad weather conditions, 400m of spare runway seems tr
31 virginblue4: Southampton's runway is 1,723m and they even have the occasional 757 visit Jordan
32 76er: C'mon guys, READ the Metars. Low clouds? Yes. Rain? Yes. Strong winds? Definately not. Only the variable wind at 1725z may raise an eyebrow. Just ano
33 airbuseric: The fuel was mostly consumed on landing, so it was definitely not a 'full load' weight wise. Pax yes, luggage probably, fuel no. Was ILS 27 operation
34 Speedbird128: Good advice then, reference this post of yours... RADZ with no reported gusts on the metar are hardly storm conditions. 80 degree crosswinds at 7 kno
35 Navigator: The Pilot in command is the one responsible for the safe handling of the plane itself. Also the pilots are responsible for knowing the exact runway l
36 HansHubers: Even a 767 can land on that particular runway. I've seen it myself a while ago during very gusting winds
38 Navigator: Pilots I know say that Amsterdam ATC seem to talk faster and be a bit less relaxed than many other ATC units in Europe. Though they are efficient the
39 thrufru: I really don't understand the comments about the F/O. I'm one that flies this aircraft as well as the -800. Most SOP's have the PIC assuming control o
40 A388: What is your point with this remark? All I'm saying is that we don't know what happened yet so we can't say for sure who's to blame for this incident
41 rlwynn: The way you guys talk it seems that SNA should see daily incidents.
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just that the pilot might have underestimated it, since they are used to land at 3300m+ runways at AMS
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