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With A New UAL Could The RTW Return?  
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4648 posts, RR: 19
Posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7912 times:

An interesting possibility, with the merger of CAL and UAL the two closest points of their respective route systems are not that far apart on the global map.



Could there be a link up and a reinstatement of round the world service ?


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7868 times:

If you mean would UA fly East from say LHR/FRA to meet up with other flights and to then have the RTW flights I cannot see a viable route that would make commercial sense as all the "main" route are covered by Star partners i.e. LHR/FRA - NRT/HKG etc. It would just be prestige but money down the drain IMHO.

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5153 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7699 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 1):


If you mean would UA fly East from say LHR/FRA to meet up with other flights and to then have the RTW flights I cannot see a viable route that would make commercial sense as all the "main" route are covered by Star partners i.e. LHR/FRA - NRT/HKG etc. It would just be prestige but money down the drain IMHO.

Would it need to stop in Europe at all? Why not SFO-EWR-DEL-KIX-SFO or something along those lines?



Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 2):
Would it need to stop in Europe at all? Why not SFO-EWR-DEL-KIX-SFO or something along those lines?

I guess a non stop to Asia from the US would make sense but DEL to KIX....not so sure. If anythng NRT? Who knows?


User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 733 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

I suppose it's possible--anything's a possibility in the airline industry these days--but I highly doubt it. At this point, between the massive growth of the various alliances as well as the issuance of trans-atlantic and trans-pacific anti-trust immunity, there's less need to have a plane with your paint job flying every route to every city when a partner could do certain routes more efficiently (and more profitably).

Although I agree it was/would be nice from a marketing and "prestige" standpoint to offer the panache of "Around the World" service.  



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6788 times:
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Actually, if it were to happen at all, I'd say DL would be the more likely candidate. It wouldn't necessarily be a "purpose-built" RTW flight, but an accidental one with a JFK/ATL-DEL to serve the East Coast and a NRT-DEL for the West Coast.

A same-metal RTW flight is out, whether it be DL or UA. Even when UA did have RTW service, it involved three aircraft models.

Same-metal RTW flights are the province of the box carriers now (Asiana, FedEx, Cargolux, Singapore come to mind).



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 5):
Even when UA did have RTW service, it involved three aircraft models.

In 2001 UA claimed to fly 744s all the way round, on flights 1 and 2 out of LAX.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5591 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 4):
Although I agree it was/would be nice from a marketing and "prestige" standpoint to offer the panache of "Around the World" service.

Today's U.S. airlines are very aware that a reckless pursuit of "prestige" is what set up Pan Am and TWA for failure, as well as leading UA itself to the brink after 9/11.

An RTW flight would only be attempted if it were the most profitable use of the equipment. Given the inevitable weakness of the middle leg(s), it isn't.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 6):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 5):
Even when UA did have RTW service, it involved three aircraft models.

In 2001 UA claimed to fly 744s all the way round, on flights 1 and 2 out of LAX.

As I recall there was always a change of aircraft, usually involving a mix of 744 and 763. If they ever used the 744 all the way, it was no doubt with a change of aircraft somewhere en route.

[Edited 2010-10-04 15:49:32]

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3517 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
An RTW flight would only be attempted if it were the most profitable use of the equipment. Given the inevitable weakness of the middle leg(s), it isn't.

Actually it's not that bad. They already have EWR-DEL/BOM and EWR-NRT. A simple link of NRT-DEL/BOM makes a very simple yet meaningful RTW :

EWR-NRT-DEL/BOM/EWR

But then, i'm sure utilizing ANA is a much smarter strategy than doing NRT-BOM yourself.

Which brings me to my final point : is SFO-DEL/BOM going to happen with 787-9? Jet Airways flopped because they used a plane too large and tried to develop 2 markets (BOM-PVG and PVG-SFO) at once. But new UA might just pull it off.

In which case you have 2 RTW :

SFO-EWR-DEL/BOM-SFO
EWR-DEL/BOM-NRT-EWR


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
As I recall there was always a change of aircraft, usually involving a mix of 744 and 763.

You're thinking of their first attempt at RTW service, in 1998 or whenever it was. The later flights were shown as thru 744s all the way in both directions, starting March? April? 2001.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5591 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 9):
A simple link of NRT-DEL/BOM makes a very simple yet meaningful RTW :

And I think NRT-DEL/BOM is a horrible idea for a U.S. carrier. I suppose it might make a bit of sense for DL, but no way for UA. Better to use that aircraft for something else.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Everyone seems to be getting confused here. UA had two short-lived RTW services, one in the mid-90s and another in the early 2000s. They were very similar, except for the a/c types used and U.S. East Coast stop. The first was routed through JFK (JFK-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-JFK) and involved 767 equipment on many of the legs, though of course the 744 flew LAX-HKG. The second time around they routed through IAD (IAD-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-IAD) and there 744 flew all sectors, including IAD-LAX and IAD-LHR.

A similar flight today would NEVER make sense:

1) UA gave up its Hong Kong-India rights several years ago in order to get additional U.S.-H.K. frequencies

2) Serving India via Europe is uncompetitive nowadays with all of the nonstop services, including CO's (soon to be UA's) EWR-BOM and EWR-DEL routes. Flying LHR-DEL then wasn't so bad back then, but today competing against the strong Indian carriers like Jet Airways and Kingfisher as well as one-stops like EK/QR/EY would be very tough for UA.

3) UA has twice failed on LAX-HKG. This was the only route (other than the DEL sectors) dropped when RTW ended.

4) Aircraft utilization on such a routing is highly inefficient. UA's widebodies are plenty busy making money on other routes anyhow.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
Serving India via Europe is uncompetitive nowadays with all of the nonstop services
DL (previously NW) has been operating DTW-AMS-BOM daily for many years. If it wasn't profitable I doubt it would have lasted so long.

Thousands of passenges still connect in Europe between North America and India. That's a very price-sensitive market and the fare is often more important than the routing. It's also often shorter via Europe than via points in the Gulf like DXB and AUH.

Example
JFK-DEL nonstop 6359 nm
JFK-FRA-DEL 6663 nm
JFK-DXB-DEL 7133 nm
JFK-AUH-DEL 7199 nm

[Edited 2010-10-04 16:57:28]

User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
DL (previously NW) has been operating DTW-AMS-BOM daily for many years. If it wasn't profitable I doubt it would have lasted so long.

That's only because KLM can't fly that route on its own metal, so they have to codeshare with their longtime partner instead.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
It's also often shorter via Europe than via points in the Gulf like DXB and AUH.

Totally irrelevant when the Gulf carriers offer far superior service than European airlines.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 12):
Everyone seems to be getting confused here. UA had two short-lived RTW services, one in the mid-90s and another in the early 2000s. They were very similar, except for the a/c types used and U.S. East Coast stop. The first was routed through JFK (JFK-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-JFK) and involved 767 equipment on many of the legs, though of course the 744 flew LAX-HKG. The second time around they routed through IAD (IAD-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-IAD) and there 744 flew all sectors, including IAD-LAX and IAD-LHR.

Did the the 2001 RTW service actually start? Wasn't it announced for winter timetable in 2001 and then 9/11 intervened before it actually started? I must admit my memory is a little fuzzy on that one. But I do recall looking forward to fly UA to DEL again in Nov 2001, and of course there was no DEL flight anymore in Nov 2001.


User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2175 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

Any RTW for UA historically would involve either HKG PEK or NRT/India/Europe. AFAIR the last time there was capacity restrictions to/from India to the far east with a 763 the capacity limit....744's flew the route sometimes but could only sell the 763 seat count. That, along with 9/11, killed the almost started ORD India route and UA closed India in a hurry. Now there is great business DXB to India which could be an alternative to via Europe....but getting local traffic routes is always stumbling point....without those there would be no sense to any of it.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3077 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 14):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
It's also often shorter via Europe than via points in the Gulf like DXB and AUH.

Totally irrelevant when the Gulf carriers offer far superior service than European airlines.

Most passengers to India are more interested in price than service. All European carriers that serve India consider it one of their most important markets. The Gulf carriers only serve a handful of points in North America. Using European carriers you can reach India with a single connection from far more cities.

Also, I would much prefer flying to India on a 9-abreast 777 like those operated by BA or any US carrier than a cramped 10-abreast EK 777.


User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

The most likely RTW scenario on the new UA would be something like,

EWR-DEL
SFO-DEL
with a domestic sector EWR-SFO.

Doubtful it would be marketed as RTW,


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8904 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 18):
EWR-DEL
SFO-DEL
with a domestic sector EWR-SFO.

Doubtful it would be marketed as RTW,

It would be a bit dubious to call it a RTW, as both legs go over the Arctic (flying pretty much straight north out of both SFO and EWR).


User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 19):

Quoting airzim (Reply 18):
EWR-DEL
SFO-DEL
with a domestic sector EWR-SFO.

Doubtful it would be marketed as RTW,

It would be a bit dubious to call it a RTW, as both legs go over the Arctic (flying pretty much straight north out of both SFO and EWR).

Agreed. It's definitely not a true circumnavigation. But probably as close as it's going to get. It's most likely that Air New Zealand's AKL-HKG-LHR-LAX-AKL will remain the only viable non RTW circumnavigation of the planet.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 15):
Did the the 2001 RTW service actually start?

No idea-- but it was in the timetable starting March or April.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5487 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Make a deal on an AB 380, and rock and roll and milk it for all the advertising publicity//capital!


I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting airzim (Reply 20):
It's most likely that Air New Zealand's AKL-HKG-LHR-LAX-AKL will remain the only viable non RTW circumnavigation of the planet.

What do you mean by "non"-RTW? NZ is definitely an RTW operator


User currently offlineairzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
What do you mean by "non"-RTW? NZ is definitely an RTW operator

Not on the same flight number. You have to make a "connection" at LHR or AKL.

It's all semantics at the end of the day.


User currently offlineadambrau From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (4 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

I had to fly from DEL-DLC this summer and the *A routing was either DEL-BKK-PEK-DLC or DEL-SIN-HKG-DLC. From what i could find, there are not a lot of nonstop flights from India to China and while I know AI is due to join the Star Alliance soon, I would guess there is a lot of demand between the two most populous countries on earth. Not sure on the what 5th freedom rights might be available to a US carrier between India and China, but saying that it was a possibility maybe some thing like EWR-DEL/BOM-PEK/PVG-SFO-EWR and vv might be possible and economically viable?

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