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AC Returns To YTZ But It's Not Jazz  
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9133 times:

AC today announced it's return to YTZ this coming February. What is surprising is they put out a RFP for the flying,what's not is Jazz lost the bid.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/October2010/04/c7923.html

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9087 times:

Deleted my post that was done a few seconds after yours. The scuttlebutt is that AC wanted lower costs than Jazz was willing to provide so they went to tender. I wonder is any other routes will follow the same pattern?

Skyservice is the charter business company that was not affected by the bankruptcy of Skyservice Airlines. They run a large number of business jets, air ambulance and other charters. And having already run an airline out of a different company they should have the experience needed. Undoubtedly their pay scale will be lower than Jazz.


User currently offlineYYZRWY23 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9093 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
AC today announced it's return to YTZ this coming February.

It is finally happening. Unfortunately, I think this could be the beginning of the end for PD. AC entering the YTZ-YUL market could pull AC frequent fliers who wanted the convenience of YTZ (and therefore PD) back to AC. The fare war should also be interesting to watch.

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
what's not is Jazz lost the bid.

Why is it surprising the Jazz lost the bid? From what I recall, Jazz signed a letter of intent with Bombardier for an order of Q400's (15+15 iirc). I would think that AC would get Jazz in on this flying, that way when they come online for Jazz, there will be a good amount of crews, mechanics etc ready for it upon arrival. I know they are separate companies, but I thought maybe that would work.

What will be more interesting is when the Jazz Q-400's do come in, does AC drop this agreement with Sky Regional Airlines, as Jazz would be a great operator to fly YTZ-YUL for AC, and they do a lot of business together.

Also, I can't wait to see the Q-400 in the AC livery!

YYZRWY23



If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9064 times:

Somewhat surprising not to see a link to YOW also. Will be interesting to see how PD can react. I hope they can survive.

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

What's a bit ironic is that Jazz won the contract to do the Thomas Cook B757 flying from Skyservice and now they've turned around and low-balled the DH4 YTZ away from Jazz. Rumour has it the 5 aircraft may be coming from Frontier with a possibility of 3 more being added later on,possibly to support a YTZ-YOW service. Jazz is also rumoured to be getting 3 used DH4 aircraft prior to the initial delivery of the first of 15 new DH4 in May.

User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

AC people said clearly that the Q400's under the Jazz order were not for YTZ. Iirc it was also said that they would be replacing the oldest CRJ200's first with the Q400's. I don't think Skyservice will be replaced on a short term basis with Jazz because costs are not likely to drop sufficiently. Certainly the oldest DH1 and DH3's also need replacing. I think we are seeing the beginning of a complete Jazz fleet rebuild.

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 5):
AC people said clearly that the Q400's under the Jazz order were not for YTZ. Iirc it was also said that they would be replacing the oldest CRJ200's first with the Q400's

That's also my understanding. All the CRJ200's less the 15 new one's ordered by AC for Jazz are likely to leave the fleet at the end of their leases,leaving just those and the 24 CRJ100's inherited from AC(must be really cheap leases!). Many of the DH100's are over 20 years old and a decision will eventually need to be made about a replacement as they must be maintenance pigs,never mind the CASM with only 37 seats.


User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 2):
, I think this could be the beginning of the end for PD. AC entering the YTZ-YUL market could pull AC frequent fliers who wanted the convenience of YTZ (and therefore PD) back to AC. The fare war should also be interesting to watch.



You maybe right but I would argue that Porter's superior service has helped them establish a very loyal business crowd. While AC has some obvious advantages, I don't see Porter disappearing, but I could be wrong. Competition is a good thing for the travelling public.

I'm still somewhat confused, will these Q400s be in AC colours or some Sky Regional hybrid ?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8741 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
I'm still somewhat confused, will these Q400s be in AC colours or some Sky Regional hybrid ?

Good question! Given the way the industry has been going, something closer to AC mainline is likely.

Brian



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineRP TPA From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

5 planes for the YTZ-YUL route? Doesnt that seem like a lot of planes for a 1 hour flight in each direction, and a total of 15 flights a day (per the press release)?

User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2846 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8669 times:

How can PD survive?!? Give me a break. YTZ-YUL is just one of their many routes, and they have become quite well known for their quality service. They'll do just fine against a newcomer offering an outsourced product.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8646 times:

Can anyone at F9 confirm the DH4's are coming from Lynx or that something is up?

One would think that it will not be too much longer before we hear about UA/CO plans for YTZ-EWR. If I'm correct Colgan operates all the DH4's for CO? Would be interesting to see with the UA/CO tie-up a possible YTZ-ORD launch.


User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 456 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8558 times:

This plan will flood the market (YUL-YTZ). That would make 18 PD flights plus 15 AC-sub flights per day in a market that never economically sustained more than 8-10 flights per day.
It is a clear AC "slash and burn" strategy.
I suspect that Skyservice will use their hangar in YUL as a dedicated terminal which would make it way more attractive than the hassle of going through the more congested public airport that PD is forced to use.

AC will kill PD on this route if that is the case.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8412 times:

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 12):
This plan will flood the market (YUL-YTZ).

I agree. More to the point -- it will flood the entire YUL-Toronto market as AC will also divert its own customers from YYZ to YTZ as well as take some PD customers.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCRJ 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 592 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8386 times:

REgarding the old CRJ100s that we(Jazz) inherited from AC, the reason they are still around is not because the leases are cheap, it's because AC signed a ridiculous lease that has obscene penalties if they are returned early. It's no wonder the AC pilots hated them, Jazz did huge upgrades to them to bring them inline with the 200s.....the avionics packages on the 100s sucked till we got our hands on them.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8312 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
How can PD survive?!? Give me a break. YTZ-YUL is just one of their many routes, and they have become quite well known for their quality service. They'll do just fine against a newcomer offering an outsourced product.

Porter publicly announced that the only routes making money are YTZ-YUL, and YTZ-EWR. Both of which will have competition in the next 6 months. They also stated that YTZ-YOW was making money, until they were finding they were diluting the product with downline flights from YOW to the east.

Remember, superior service does not sell seats. The passenger has told us, time and time again, it is low fare that is more important. It looks like the residents of Toronto are going to get some pretty cheap Island flying in the next year or so. It comes down to who has deeper pockets ... Air Canada and Continental, or Porter.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinetropical77W From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8293 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 6):
That's also my understanding. All the CRJ200's less the 15 new one's ordered by AC for Jazz are likely to leave the fleet at the end of their leases,leaving just those and the 24 CRJ100's inherited from AC(must be really cheap leases!). Many of the DH100's are over 20 years old and a decision will eventually need to be made about a replacement as they must be maintenance pigs,never mind the CASM with only 37 seats.

The rumour that i've heard is that the new QK Q400's will be going out West. Again only a rumour.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8148 times:

I am sure that the colour scheme on the aircraft will be similar to the smallest regional operators like Georgian Airways. So will look like AC mainline and not Jazz aircraft.

User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 17):
I am sure that the colour scheme on the aircraft will be similar to the smallest regional operators like Georgian Airways. So will look like AC mainline and not Jazz aircraft.

I've always imagined a DH4 in AC colours would look really sharp!


User currently offlineYYZRWY23 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8022 times:

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
I would argue that Porter's superior service has helped them establish a very loyal business crowd.

Even though I have yet to experience PD, a good friend of mine has, and confirmed the superior service that you speak of. However, superior service like the snack box, using real glasses, and any other superior services such as those cost money. I believe I read here on a.net that PD has not been profitable for the past 3 years. When AC enters, they can offer low-fares (as they have the pockets to do so), and also re-attract YYZ FF who want to maintain status, but use the downtown airport. The PD will have two options, cut-service and be no different from AC and CO, except not offer global connections and a comprehensive FF program, or they can raise fares to cover their costs, but:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
The passenger has told us, time and time again, it is low fare that is more important.

  

Which is why I agree that AC will:

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 12):
It is a clear AC "slash and burn" strategy.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):

I think it is a reasonable question regarding an airline that despite its superior service, only has two profitable routes, and it about to begin competing with two very large airlines AC and UA (CO). These airlines offer extensive route networks, and are apart of a global alliance that connect the downtown traveler from their office to the world. PD does not.

How exactly are you referring to AC as a "new-comer"? They served YTZ in the past, they serve Toronto to Montreal.....besides the airport, how is AC exactly a "new-comer"? I think Torontonians and many others are already well aware of the presence of AC...........

And regarding it being out-sourced....it is a one hour flight. This is hardly AC out-sourcing YYZ-LHR and offering a sub-par Executive Class product due to out-sourcing, this is AC doing what it does with Jazz, and I think the routes operated by Jazz for AC are quite successful (considering the relationship the two airlines share).

YYZRWY23



If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

I have traveled between YUL and YTZ since 1984. First it was on Air Atonabee ST-27, then City Express (Dash-8),
Air Ontario/Air Canada JAZZ (Dash-8-100) and finally Porter with the Dash-8-400. The best service of all is on Porter.
I don't know about the future but Air Canada has a lot of job to do for improving their service.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7060 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 10):
How can PD survive?!? Give me a break. YTZ-YUL is just one of their many routes, and they have become quite well known for their quality service. They'll do just fine against a newcomer offering an outsourced product.

But almost none of PD's other routes are profitable with load factors often well below 40%. AC's huge frequent flyer base will be a major factor that should make their service successful even with a lower frequency than PD.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6618 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 20):
I don't know about the future but Air Canada has a lot of job to do for improving their service.

As I am sure you are aware, Air Canada has been named "Best in North America", "Best Flight Attendants in North America", "Best Business Class in North America", etc etc etc. And they achieve that by giving the Customer what he wants. And ... while we all like free beer and snack packs, what we want is low fares on a reliable carrier.

The aviation landscape is littered with failed airlines that offered a higher than average level of service. They failed because that service costs more, and that is not what the Customer places first in the list.

It is also interesting to note that the airline that Air Canada battles for first place in North America, and the two are always changing positions first and second is the other airline about to enter the YTZ market ... Continental.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1061 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Either way Porter makes money. Either AC fails and porter remains or porter charges an arm and a leg for use of the terminal. Win Win for Porter.


DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6194 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
Quoting yenne09 (Reply 20):
I don't know about the future but Air Canada has a lot of job to do for improving their service.

As I am sure you are aware, Air Canada has been named "Best in North America", "Best Flight Attendants in North America", "Best Business Class in North America", etc etc etc. And they achieve that by giving the Customer what he wants. And ... while we all like free beer and snack packs, what we want is low fares on a reliable carrier.

The aviation landscape is littered with failed airlines that offered a higher than average level of service. They failed because that service costs more, and that is not what the Customer places first in the list.

It is also interesting to note that the airline that Air Canada battles for first place in North America, and the two are always changing positions first and second is the other airline about to enter the YTZ market ... Continental

[Disclaimer - I grew up in an AC family: Dad in AC MX 32 years, brother at AirBC/Jazz 20 years]

Per Longhaulers comments, AC are regularly winning "Best ... in North America" awards. Nothwithstanding, they have a ways to go to catch up to SQ, KE, TG, etc. Bear in mind, however, that the Asian carriers so frequently cited for superior in flight service have a much lower labour cost structure than AC does. So they can add one or two extra cabin attendants on a long-haul, which makes all the difference. Because the cost structure is different, services that are cost-extra on AC (or UA/CO for that matter) are comp'ed on many Asian carriers.

I will very readily admit that during the Crown Corp era of AC (ended about 1986) in-flight service was largely an afterthought, the airline existed essentially as a public service with only fairly limited competition. As well, after the merger/buyout (however you choose to describe it), the in-flight product was not good. I believe this was in large part due to the then many (and still some) union issues regarding seniority, blocks, and so forth, and also the effects of the restructuring in CCAA. Try going to work thinking it was realistic the whole thing would fall apart that very day. But in the past several years I have noticed a tremendous increase in the overall attitude and service level in the cabin.

And I do fly WS from time-to-time.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
25 longhauler : I agree. But we have to remember that AC is a public company, held accountable by the shareholders. That being the case, why would/should extra servi
26 heathrow : Nice to see that Canada's forced flag carrier is now closing the market. Keep our costs as high as you can AC! And now another great airline well be d
27 Post contains images dc10srule : I hope Porter charges an arm, leg, torso, neck and head for the gates. That might be the only way to offset "some" of the losses due to the impending
28 Post contains images YYZRWY23 : Yes.....PD could make money off of renting the space, but last I checked, they are not a property management company. An airline that only turns a pr
29 connies4ever : I guess it comes down to analysing what product/service is to be offerred in-flight, what the marginal cost of investing is, and what the potential R
30 Kaiarahi : And if PD is pushed out of the market, AC will promptly close YTZ down, just as they've done before - leaving consumers with NO choices.
31 YYZRWY23 : I don't know if this was ever upgraded from rumors/speculation, but I thought I once read the CO and some other us carriers were going to want in on
32 ACABlaker : A few things to add about this big announcement, First off one of the background reasons for the YTZ move is not only Porter, but the cheaper costs of
33 9252fly : I would have never thought of that myself. Okay,say I'm a business traveller and an Elite or Super Elite at AC,this seems like a slam-dunk.
34 Post contains links connies4ever : PD just announced September LF is about 55% - is this the first sign of possible profitability over-all ? http://www.wingsmagazine.com/content/view/4
35 YYZatcboy : They can't go CAT II because of the offset of the localizers due to the smoke stacks on one approach and Pearson on the other. The only way to possibl
36 YYZRWY23 : It certainly could be. however, more details are needed. Even if the overall LF is approx 55%, you have to look at each of the flights. Are the two o
37 YYZatcboy : They paid for it to be set up so they could have an ILS to runway 26. RNAV A (Or whatever approach has the decent from the east. I don't have my CAP h
38 Carfield : Competition is always good for the public, especially on a market like Canada, which is very expensive in general. However, I am worried that history
39 NorthStarDC4M : CommunityAir has lost most of its bark, but im sure they will make some big whiney protest in the Toronto Sh** errr Star... If Rob Ford comes in, the
40 Post contains images YYZRWY23 : The government should stay out of it. PD can adapt, if it so chooses, and compete rather effectively with AC. Survival of the fittest, something the
41 Kaiarahi : [Edited 2010-10-06 02:54:19]
42 Kaiarahi : Trying again - there's something seriously wrong with the edit function (again). Toronto may be the centre of the universe, but I doubt all those shin
43 RP TPA : The HND flights will operate to/from YVR.
44 CRJ 900 : Not likely, those are all companies that incorporated into the present Jazz Air. If Jazz had the contract, I would say there would be a REMOTE chance
45 NorthStarDC4M : Actually no they aren't. Austin Airways was bought by Air Canada proper and the assets sold to Air Ontario... after the Deluces had agreed in princip
46 CRJ 900 : Ok so they could fly an Austin Airways retro Q400 around...as for the rest of them, they sold it all with JAZZ.... regardless hell would be in a deep
47 Post contains images dc10srule : I read a comment from the Chairperson of the CYTZ anti-airport group - Community Air. He's telling anyone who will listen to him that the new airline(
48 pnwtraveler : When people point out that AC doesn't compare with SQ, EK or whoever they want to point out from the top tier international carriers, that is true. W
49 9252fly : With the industry in constant evolution,I can see how this could be a good fit for WS and their billion dollar nest-egg.
50 Post contains images pnwtraveler : The competition in the airport could heat up even more. The prospect of AC/UA revenue sharing on all cross border flights could be huge. As I mentione
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