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'You Will All Die': QF Staff Restrain Passenger  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2827 posts, RR: 8
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 11492 times:

This just appeared on the Sydney Morning Herald website.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...rain-passenger-20101007-168rv.html

Lucky they got him restrained quickly.


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCamohe From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11290 times:

I just saw this on Channel 9 TV news here in Sydney with the banner "MID-FLIGHT TERROR" (typical understatement from the commercial networks...)

Apparently the guy was taken to hospital in Hong Kong. Maybe for psychiatric evaluation?


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11126 times:

Better he gets into a Hong Kong prison than in Australia, learning curves should be steaper.

User currently offlineCCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 830 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11079 times:

Can someone post the previous discussion about opening doors inflight and the loads that are on the doors.

This question is going to come up, bit difficult to do it on a phone. Cheers



C152 G115 TB10 CAP10 SR-22 Be76 PA-34 NDN-1T C500 A330-300 A340-300 -600 B747-200F -200SF -400 -400F -400BCF -400ERF -8F
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10917 times:
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I think the figure was approx 10 ton of force needed to open a door based on the dimensions of an aircraft door (4 feet by 6 feet) and the pressure difference at 36000ftl.
The original poster had worked it out using psi and figures, I just made a point to remember the 10 ton figure..............


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10876 times:

Its great that the QF F/As were able to restrain the pax on their own without the help of several passengers. Here in the U.S. many F/As wouldn't be able to do what these QF F/As did and some airlines don't carry handcuffs or flex-cuffs on board either.


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineflflyguy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10193 times:
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Quoting m11stephen (Reply 5):
Its great that the QF F/As were able to restrain the pax on their own without the help of several passengers. Here in the U.S. many F/As wouldn't be able to do what these QF F/As did and some airlines don't carry handcuffs or flex-cuffs on board either.

Without going into details of security training and procedures, I would disagree with you.

What makes you think U.S. Flight Attendants would not be able to do it? And how do you know if we have cuffs or not?

US Crews have successfully restrained out of control passengers on numerous occasions. The most famous example being AA63 CDG-MIA.....the "Shoe Bomber" flight.

Kudos to the QF crew.

[Edited 2010-10-07 08:51:07]


The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10124 times:

Quoting flflyguy (Reply 6):
Without going into details of security training and procedures, I would disagree with you.

What makes you think U.S. Flight Attendants would not be able to do it? And how do you know if we have cuffs or not?

US Crews have successfully restrained out of control passengers on numerous occasions. The most famous example being AA63 CDG-MIA.....the "Shoe Bomber" flight.

Because I have F/A friends at various US carriers and I've talked to them about this. Its a subject I'm very interested in. (Don't worry I'm not a terrorist) Some airlines take self defense training very seriously which is excellent but others seem to scrape by with as little F/A security training as possible.

The AA63 F/As did a FANTASTIC job, especially given how this occurred just months after 9/11 and those F/As had not received any sort of anti-terrorism training dealing with physical combat. However, those F/As still struggled with Reid and he was not restrained until several passengers came to the help of the F/As.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5186 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9948 times:

Quoting flflyguy (Reply 6):
What makes you think U.S. Flight Attendants would not be able to do it?

Because most (on longhaul) are ancient. I can just see 50 year old Martha taking on a 20 something terrorist/hijacker lol


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9845 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 8):
Because most (on longhaul) are ancient. I can just see 50 year old Martha taking on a 20 something terrorist/hijacker lol

With good hand to hand combat training, and if 50 year old Martha is in good shape, she could stop a terrorist hijacker however you can't learn the skills needed to do that in a day, which is the time most airlines allot for F/A security training. Its a good thing that there has recently been an increase in the number of federal air marshals incase, God forbid, a passenger should go crazy on a flight or there be another attempted terrorist attack. I am all for giving F/As extensive martial arts training to stop a hijacking or subdue an unruly passenger however there are several issues with this. Given the number of older, out of shape F/As, equipping these individuals with martial arts training would not be very effective at all since they lack physical stamina or reasonable physical strength.

I'm a green belt in karate so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to martial arts training. The kind of training F/As need to stop a hijacking and subdue an unruly passenger can't be learned in a day. Maneuvers and skill need to be practiced many times over a long period of time in order for the maneuvers to stick with you and be automatic when confronted with physical danger.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9712 times:

First of all: Kudos to the QF crew for a job well done.

I'm glad that the article states that the female FA had been flying for 15 years. Why? Because calmly handling certain situations with professionalism, rational thinking but at the same time quick reaction can only be successful with some routine and experience on the job.

Said to all those people who keep going on about how being a FA shouldn't be a career but rather a job for young out of college girls whom they wanna see leaving the airlines when they turn 23!!!

Nothing against young FA's and young people in general. We were all young and we all started our careers at one point at a younger age. There are great and very professional very young FA's but we need experinece, expertise and routine as well.

Can you imagine a situation like this being professionally handled by a group of young girls? Honestly I think the headline would have been different. Something along the lines: Passengers help stewardesses restrain a disruptive guy on the plane!

Anyhow, great job! Good that the crew had seniority and experince and good that both male and female FA's were on board!

However I find it a little strange to compare this incident with the situation on board AA63! And I really have to give some credit to the FA's on this flight. It was an extreme, life threatening situation. It wasn't a situation that developed over a longer period of time. The FA's on AA63 were suddenly confronted with a suicidal terrorist whose only intention was to bring down an American plane shortly before christmas - killing everyone onboard. It was an extremely violent situation. They guy punched the FA's, he bit them, he fought with them and it was all so sudden. The two FA's who were first responders didn't have time to brief with the rest of the crew, to make a plan. They had to react, very sudden in an obviously life and death situation. It was THEIR quick thinking and fast reaction that saved everybody's life on AA63! Passengers only came to assist a little later!

So aside from FA's back then not having the kind of training they do now - and they undergo that training on every major US airline as well - the situation was totally different. That's the main reason why passengers assisted to finally subdue Richard Reid!

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9634 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 8):
Quoting flflyguy (Reply 6):
What makes you think U.S. Flight Attendants would not be able to do it?

Because most (on longhaul) are ancient. I can just see 50 year old Martha taking on a 20 something terrorist/hijacker lol

Maybe true...but I think post-9/11 the potential hijacker/disruptive passenger has a lot more to fear from his fellow travelers than from the flight crew. Marha's most important function might be to get a pack of angry pax to stop beating the guy long after he's been restrained.


User currently offlineflflyguy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8852 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 8):
Because most (on longhaul) are ancient. I can just see 50 year old Martha taking on a 20 something terrorist/hijacker

Well, for your sake, I hope you never meet "Martha" in a dark alley!



The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7588 times:

From a business executive position, I'd say to skip the FA training and let the passengers handle the nutjobs. It would help to get my airline out of any lawsuits that might be filed by the wacko after being restrained...

I don't personally agree with this, but I can certainly see it being the attitude of some airlines.



B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2827 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6661 times:

More on the story.....

What a complete nut job, imagine, he wanted to go sit in the flight deck with the tech crew ???

Talk about a dumb ass !

Moral of the story.

Beware of anyone preying loudly on a plane in a strange tongue.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/p...fq80-1225935744634?from=public_rss  Wow!

[Edited 2010-10-07 15:37:34]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6088 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 10):
Nothing against young FA's and young people in general. We were all young and we all started our careers at one point at a younger age. There are great and very professional very young FA's but we need experinece, expertise and routine as well.

Can you imagine a situation like this being professionally handled by a group of young girls? Honestly I think the headline would have been different. Something along the lines: Passengers help stewardesses restrain a disruptive guy on the plane!

Whenever there is a disruptive passenger in the US that needs to be restrained it usually mentions passengers helping the F/As restrain the unruly passenger. The only time F/As become more experienced with dealing with emergencies, hijackers, unruly passengers, etc. is during training. Its rare that a F/A will ever encounter an emergency so a young girl will have the same amount of knowledge with dealing with an unruly passenger as a senior F/A would.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlinehz747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5957 times:
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Quoting m11stephen (Reply 9):
With good hand to hand combat training, and if 50 year old Martha is in good shape

Sadly, on my UA flights to/from NRT/IAD, "Martha" does not appear to be in good shape and waddles instead of walks. With all the military cutbacks, I think that perfect roles for these ex-Marines and Army types would be flight attendant. Hand-to-hand combat skills built-in, and propensity to violence, at their best when machine gun fire breaks out, but very polite whan all is come, this is the flight crew of the future.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineusafdo From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

Regarding opening a door......

I believe there was a South African 747 Combi that crashed many years ago, and one of the procedures to clear the cabin of toxic fumes required a door being opened.

It was Flight 295 (also known as The Helderberg).

The story is shown on Utube ( won't post the links....every time I do, airliners net removes my post)...


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 16):
Sadly, on my UA flights to/from NRT/IAD, "Martha" does not appear to be in good shape and waddles instead of walks. With all the military cutbacks, I think that perfect roles for these ex-Marines and Army types would be flight attendant. Hand-to-hand combat skills built-in, and propensity to violence, at their best when machine gun fire breaks out, but very polite whan all is come, this is the flight crew of the future.

B6 has been recruiting retired Police Officers and Firefighters to serve as F/As which is actually a great idea IMO. There are, unfortunately, a lot of out of shape F/As who would be of very little help in restraining a passenger or stopping a terrorist attack. Its great that passengers are almost always ready to stop in and help out whenever a F/A needs it.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 961 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5643 times:

Quoting flflyguy (Reply 6):

I can tell you now, we go through a very 'full on' security training session. Im sure that every airline has thereown security training, and im also more then certain that any crew member could restrain a pax....  
Quoting CCA (Reply 3):
Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 4):

In one of my cabin crew training, with a airline, i was also told that certain doors on a 744 can be 'cracked' mid-air quiet easily, for such things such as smoke filling the cabin mid-air, cracking these doors can let smoke out... im not certain on the exact dynamics of when the doors are able to be open, but they can be  



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineflflyguy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 244 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5570 times:
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I believe that to crack a door on virtually any modern commercial aircraft, the cabin needs to be depressurized first.


The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
User currently offline757luver From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting usafdo (Reply 17):
Regarding opening a door......

I believe there was a South African 747 Combi that crashed many years ago, and one of the procedures to clear the cabin of toxic fumes required a door being opened.

It was Flight 295 (also known as The Helderberg).

The story is shown on Utube ( won't post the links....every time I do, airliners net removes my post)...

They had descended to a lower altitude so this would be possible if I recall correctly.



Long live the 757!
User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 961 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting 757luver (Reply 21):
Quoting flflyguy (Reply 20):
Quoting JQflightie (Reply 19):

yes, ive asked someone and im lead to belive its 10000ft



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4494 times:

Even a slight pressure differential renders a door or exit unopenable by anyone smaller than Godzilla.

User currently offlineBooDog From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 23):
Even a slight pressure differential renders a door or exit unopenable by anyone smaller than Godzilla.

But what if America's next terror threat comes from Japan? =)



B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
25 SSTsomeday : And if I may say something that may well be perceived as sexist, doesn't QF have a much higher percentage of male flight attendants because that is A
26 580fa : Flight attendants do not singularly restrain unruly people, in any part of the world. Training includes "cabin management", including commanding passe
27 580fa : Not really. Though you might have to give us your definition of "modern".
28 copter808 : Unless it's a long haul RJ, there should be more than one Martha on board. 3 or 4 Marthas could probably do the job just fine...and there are still p
29 ThunderB : Procedure from my understanding is to go to 5-8000ft and open the two read doors, the controlled depressurisation would allow the smoke to evacuate t
30 L1011Lover : However it's a given fact that when you grow older and the more experience you gain you will handle certain situations a lot more effectively, routin
31 L1011Lover : Exactly... and we do get a LOT of training!!! Passengers get NONE!!! So we're a LOT MORE experienced!!!
32 AR385 : About that. I saw the NatGeo program where they showed that. To me, it does not sound right, and I don´t know where NatGeo got the idea that they di
33 silentbob : I'd rather have a "Bruno" or two than a half a dozen grandmothers like you get on most US long haul flights. As they tend to repeat endlessly on the
34 m11stephen : Absolutely! F/As are very highly trained to deal with a wide variety of situations. I know at some airlines though (which I'm not going to disclose)
35 zkpilot : Smoke can be cleared on a 747 using doors 3 and a door strap handle. The door is only cracked not open (doors open forwards so this is impossible agai
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