Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Camp Mirage And YYZ - Part 1  
User currently offlineauroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13458 times:

How's this for in-your-face reverse diplomacy...

In this article UAE threatens to kick Canada out of covert military base Camp Mirage .... guess why...

Fair use:
"In a remarkably blunt diplomatic gambit, the UAE has been threatening to evict Canada from Camp Mirage if the Harper government doesn’t grant its two commercial airlines lucrative additional landing rights at airports in Toronto and other cities, sources familiar with the negotiations say."

And they say politics and business don't mix   

266 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13454 times:

I say....Bring back our Canadian troops home and not let a tiny oil rich fully subsidized airlines dictate how our system works!!!

User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13359 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 1):
I say....Bring back our Canadian troops home and not let a tiny oil rich fully subsidized airlines dictate how our system works!!!

amen to that brother.



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlinewatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13339 times:

This issue isn't just about YYZ. I'm guessing that UAE wanted enough slots so that EK and EY could have the option of going daily at YYZ, YUL, YVR and YYC. The prospect of that many flights (even if not in the near future) probably scared off the Canadians.

User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13287 times:

I have blogged about this saga on a couple of occasions - http://airceo.com/804 - and frankly I am not even slightly surprised by this arrogant action. After the EK sanctioned study by InterVistas Consulting didn't get the desired reaction from the Canadian government, UAE officials fired this threat to close Camp mirage to Canadian forces.

Time and again there are heated arguments on this forum about whether EK is subsidized or not and while I don't believe they are, you have to admit that this whole saga has very clearly demonstrated that the line between the government of the UAE and EK (and to a lesser extent EY) is blurry and undefined at best. Can you for a second imagine the government of Canada going to bat like this for AC or WS?

Though this relationship is characterized as being "mutually beneficial" it's very clear that one side - the UAE - has more to gain and until that changes I highly doubt the government of Canada is going to change its tune. In fact they may even use this as an opportunity to relocate staging ops to Al Udeid Air Force base in Qatar and maybe throw in a bilateral to boot. Dailly YYZ-DOH anyone?

@airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13245 times:

Canada can kinda give them what they want, while being totally unhelpful.

Offer airport specific slots - something like 5 for YVR and 3 for YYZ. (to prevent meaningful cannibalization). And let EY/EK fight over the slots until neither of them can offer adequate service to compete with AC/LH/AI.

Also, don't spend the money to upgrade YYZ/YYC to be A380-compatible, then that'll artifically limit how much traffic EK can steal.

Or something crazy like 5 weekly daytime slots, but 10 weekly slots between 12am-6am (or any time period that'll create a poorly timed flight into/out of DXB/AUH).


User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13229 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 5):
Canada can kinda give them what they want, while being totally unhelpful.

I think you're missing the point. The GoC is not really being obstructive. Their contention is that there is already adequate service between the UAE and Canada. Period. Also the GoC does not make infrastructure decisions at all airports so any further meddling would be both pointless and impossible.

airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13213 times:

This thread and the other one should be merged. For the record Canada did offer a middle ground of some additional access and it wasn't good enough.

User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13134 times:

File this under "Lessons not learned"

SQ went public with its demands for greater access in 1992 and ended up without a Canadian bilateral. If you threaten the Canadian government publicly like this, you will get the opposite reaction to what you want.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2982 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13094 times:

Here's a recap of what I posted in the other (now deleted) thread.

Apparently, Dubai has given 30 days notice of eviction from Camp Mirage. This is a fundamentally unfriendly act that injects military considerations into what should be a commercial negotiation. Should Canada wish to retaliate, I can think of a few options:

1) Cancel the Canada-UAE bilateral - under article XXIII this can be done unilaterally by giving 12 months notice. A further step would be to impose restrictions on EK overflights, which would throughly mess up their routes into LAX, SFO and IAH.

2) Negotiate a new, expanded bilateral with India. A significant proportion of EK pax out of YYZ are transiting DXB headed to South Asia. AI is actively seeking to establish its brand new terminal in DEL as a significant international hub. The current Canada-India bilateral (1982) is overdue for renegotiation and Canada is pushing to increase trade with India.

3) Expand the bilaterals with Turkey and Portugal to allow TP and TK (both * Alliance) to eat into EK markets in the Middle East and Africa.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13057 times:

My post in the other thread is mostly covered by the above. But mostly I was saying kudos to the Canadian government for not knuckling under to bullying by the UAE in it support of a "government" (royal owned) airline, that fits intimately in with government financial goals and policies. People can argue back and forth whether EK is subsidized or whether it is not, but the fact that it isn't clear is important.

Hidden under the talk of freedom of choice (odd choice of words) and consumer benefit, it the fact that unfettered access would lower competition in Canada by driving out PIA, likely Jet Airways, cause AI and others to reduce service, and shut out new airlines who are wanting to start service. EK doesn't care one bit about the Canadian consumer despite their PR to that effect.

For the record this stance is to protect Canadian jobs, Canadian investors and shareholders, and is about Fair Trade, not government support of AC. I agree with the answer to the UAE should be extended rights for TK, encouragement of the rumoured addition of Egyptair and Ethiopian and others. For Canada to have allowed this to avoid being mislabeled as protectionist, would have been putting Canadians at a disadvantage to benefit a foreign business.

[Edited 2010-10-08 09:17:56]

User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13035 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 10):

  

All three options should be exercised with haste and EK/EY should be evicted from YYZ ASAP. Outright blackmail should not be tolerated.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2982 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13032 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 11):
Hidden under the talk of freedom of choice (odd choice of words) and consumer benefit, it the fact that unfettered access would lower competition in Canada by driving out PIA, likely Jet Airways, cause AI and others to reduce service, and shut out new airlines who are wanting to start service.

     

As I said in the other thread, I think it would be bad news for smaller Canadian cities. Because AC's long-haul / international routes are profitable, it can operate break-even/marginal routes to smaller cities, which in turn provide some feed for the long-haul/international routes - it's a precarious balance, given Canada's geography and population distribution. Allowing EK to cream-off international / long-haul pax from YVR and YYC would inevitably result in a reduction/cessation of service to smaller centres - which is NOT in Canada's interest.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 12):
All three options should be exercised with haste and EK/EY should be evicted from YYZ ASAP. Outright blackmail should not be tolerated.

Although EY have acted reasonably. After the bilateral providing for 6x weekly service was established, EK turned up their noses saying not enough. EY jumped in and said we'll take 3, and EK only then took the other 3.

[Edited 2010-10-14 09:29:46 by ManuCH]


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2430 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12946 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 10):
A further step would be to impose restrictions on EK overflights, which would throughly mess up their routes into LAX, SFO and IAH.

This step alone will make the people at EK beg for forgiveness !!! Since now, you're putting into jeopardy the majority of their North American operations....

I like it.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12812 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 15):

This step alone will make the people at EK beg for forgiveness !!! Since now, you're putting into jeopardy the majority of their North American operations....

I like it.

Thenoflyzone

Considering Harper's capacity for vindictiveness, entirely possible.

By the way, here, courtesy of the National Post, is what the UAE was demanding.

-up to 50 flights a week to Canada.
-Ability to start a 380 hub in Toronto that would be fed by EK-coded flights within North America

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Can...n/3645355/story.html#ixzz11nVzLdvH


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12430 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12741 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 5):
Canada can kinda give them what they want, while being totally unhelpful.

Canada should stand very firm on this. Never should the UAE be allowed to forget that Canada doesn't NEED to be in Afghanistan. I don't know how much it costs Canada to be in Afghanistan, but I'd say it's well into nine figures (C$). And who benefits from this; Canadian troops are putting their lives on the line to tackle the Taliban who, given half a chance, would LOVE to put a few smoking holes in the Dubai and Abu Dhabi skyline. And now they're being threatened by people who benefit from what Canada is doing? Frankly, if I were Harper I'd tell the UAE to get stuffed. Pull out of Camp Mirage AND kick EY and EK out of Canada for six months (and any upping of the ante by UAE would result in a further suspension). Canada is a civilised, decent country and should not allow itself to be seen as a soft target for a country like the UAE.

Quoting sebring (Reply 8):
SQ went public with its demands for greater access in 1992 and ended up without a Canadian bilateral. If you threaten the Canadian government publicly like this, you will get the opposite reaction to what you want.

As it should be.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 10):
1) Cancel the Canada-UAE bilateral - under article XXIII this can be done unilaterally by giving 12 months notice. A further step would be to impose restrictions on EK overflights, which would throughly mess up their routes into LAX, SFO and IAH.

I wouldn't go quite as far as stopping overflights, but I would consider summoning the UAE's ambassador to Canada and explaining the reality of the position and the likely consequences if the UAE pursues its stance. Maybe, given Canada's spending on something which is important to the UAE's security should be supported by the UAE financially.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2430 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12734 times:

Quoting sebring (Reply 16):
up to 50 flights a week to Canada.
-Ability to start a 380 hub in Toronto that would be fed by EK-coded flights within North America

With demands like that, it's almost as if they wanted the negotiations to fail !

I mean, even if you operate YYZ double daily, YVR daily, heck even YUL and YYC daily (which is more than generous, since the demand for YUL and YYC do not warrant daily flights), you would only be up to 35 flights a week to Canada. They're asking for 50 !

It doesn't make any sense. EK is digging its own grave here. I do not see Canada renegotiating this bilateral anytime soon.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2010-10-08 14:22:13]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2982 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12675 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):

I wouldn't go quite as far as stopping overflights, but I would consider summoning the UAE's ambassador to Canada and explaining the reality of the position and the likely consequences if the UAE pursues its stance.

Overflight rights are in the bilateral, so it would take 12 months notice anyway.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 18):
I mean, even if you operate YYZ double daily, YVR daily, heck even YUL and YYC daily (which is more than generous, since the demand for YUL and YYC do not warrant daily flights), you would only be up to 35 flights a week to Canada. They're asking for 50 !

If they want to hub YYZ, they'd presumably abandon direct flights from IAH, LAX and SFO and feed the traffic through YYZ.

Anyway, as I mentioned:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 13):
I think it would be bad news for smaller Canadian cities. Because AC's long-haul / international routes are profitable, it can operate break-even/marginal routes to smaller cities, which in turn provide some feed for the long-haul/international routes - it's a precarious balance, given Canada's geography and population distribution. Allowing EK to cream-off international / long-haul pax from YYZ, YVR and YYC would inevitably result in a reduction/cessation of service to smaller centres - which is NOT in Canada's interest.

YYZ (and Toronto) might be winners, but the rest of the country would lose.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12430 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12180 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...ding-rights-talks-wam-reports.html

The UAE is disappointed that talks have broken down. Oh really ... and why do they think they broke down? I can't help wondering if the UAE's novel approach to diplomacy was applied in other cases? With Australia, for example, or India, or the US? Or was it just Canada that was singled out for this special honour?

I sincerely hope that Harper comes out with a pretty firm put-down, something along the lines that "Canada is disappointed that the extent of the UAE's appreciation of Canada's contribution to Middle East security - something crucially important to the UAE's economic growth and political stability - was that it was seen as a useful bargaining chip in "negotiations" for air access."

The UAE ambassador is right in one respect; it will affect the relationship between the UAE and Canada for a long time to come, i.e. until the UAE is willing to apologise, formally and publicly. And I just don't see the UAE eating humble pie.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11429 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 12071 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Congratulations to Canada, and it's not easy to understand UAE position, now to put the Country to fight for their airlines in a move that could lead to a lot of comments against them. Tried and not got what they want ? Try again in the future and that's it.
For me the reaction is unecessary and will bring the United States reaction to the discussion as the only country that wants more than Canada its help.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25109 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12006 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting airceo (Reply 4):
Can you for a second imagine the government of Canada going to bat like this for AC or WS?

I'm confused. I thought the Canadian government did go to bat for their airlines. At least, that's what it implies here:

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/mid...y-be-hit-by-lack-of-air-deal-.html

"But Canadian carriers worry the UAE airlines would steal away connecting passengers that make their routes profitable and have lobbied the government to resist."

Don't the Canadian airlines have what they wanted in this?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZBA2CGX From Canada, joined Mar 2006, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11861 times:

Mariner,

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Don't the Canadian airlines have what they wanted in this?

Yes, I believe the Canadian government did back up the claims of AC and WS.

The Toronto Star http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...ary-camp-in-landing-rights-dispute have their commentary on the dispute.

I think government of Canada will come back to revisit this once AC has the 787 and long haul routes to DEL, BOM, and KHI have been established. If not, I'm sure they will continue to feed AC passengers through their partners hubs in Europe.

Besides, Canada can tear up the existing agreement with UAE and deny them access to Canadian airspace. That would certainly screw up the schedules for IAH, SFO and LAX for EK and ORD for EY. Not to mention any future flights to other US cities. That might make them come back to the negotiating table with a little more realistic expectations. If they still have unrealistic visions of grandeur, give QR access to Canada on the same terms that UAE instead and see what happens.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11852 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Don't the Canadian airlines have what they wanted in this?

They probably did as airlines lobby which is how things work like it or not, also EK does not warrant the amount of traffic they are asking for, they should get some more but not up to 50 flights a week.

But the point of the argument is that you likely wouldn't see the Canadian government cutting completely unrelated things (such as overfly rights or trade agreements) from other countries had AC and WS been denied the rights to fly to a certain country.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12053 times:

This just doesn't make sense to me. I'm very disappointed that the UAE would put the commercial needs of its airline ahead of allowing the Canadian Forces use of their base for the common good of the region. I was in the initial stages of planning a trip for 4 to Dubai in March 2011 but I will strongly reconsider that plan due this political move.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2982 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12043 times:

Quoting ZBA2CGX (Reply 23):
Besides, Canada can tear up the existing agreement with UAE and deny them access to Canadian airspace. That would certainly screw up the schedules for IAH, SFO and LAX for EK and ORD for EY.

Canada has to give 12 months notice - but the waiting period might introduce some reality on the UAE's part.

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
I'm confused. I thought the Canadian government did go to bat for their airlines.

Yes, but there are much larger economic implications for Canada. If you look at the geography, population distribution, and provincial/territorial politics, it's a difficult but essential proposition to keep the country connected.

Before CP's demise, the federal government was continually bailing it out, essentially because its international / long-haul routes were not sufficiently profitable to enable it to operate marginal / break-even routes to smaller centres and the government was not prepared to see these centres without air service. AC's trip through creditor reorganization after it was essentially forced to take over CP was in part caused by the unprofitable routes it inherited.

As I mentioned before, because AC's long-haul / international routes are now profitable, it can operate break-even/marginal routes to smaller cities, which in turn provide some feed for the long-haul/international routes - it's a precarious balance, given Canada's geography and population distribution. Allowing EK to cream-off international / long-haul pax from YYZ, YVR and YYC would inevitably result in a reduction/cessation of service to smaller centres - which is NOT in Canada's economic or internal political interest.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
25 pnwtraveler : The government did offer additional rights. Everyone should also remember that EK had rights to 6 days a week to YYZ. Had they taken that and filled t
26 Longhauler : If Canada revoked their overflight rights, it would virtually shut down their entire North American operations. But I think it is more like trying to
27 pnwtraveler : As strongly as I feel about the subject I hope Canada doesn't resort to overhanded tactics in dealing with this. I think banning overflights would be
28 multimark : Lost in this is not just the disgusting closure of Camp Mirage, it is the fact the UAE denied access to their airspace to a government minister on nat
29 AirNovaBAe146 : If Canada ever does give the UAE increased air rights, I hope they also give them the bill for shutting down Camp Mirage early, as well as the extra c
30 Post contains images AirNovaBAe146 : I'm all for ending the UAE bilateral. BTW, what was the bit about them closing airspace to Peter MacKay? You have a link?
31 Post contains links matthew11 : Here is a link to UAE closing the airspace to McKay. http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/na...tan/article1752151/?service=mobile It will be very interes
32 Post contains links sebring : If I were advising Harper, I'd say that Canada should just take a calm approach. Do nothing except criticize the UAE, say Canada offered more frequen
33 blueflyer : Normally, I don't think that stooping down to their level is the way to deal with uneducated brats, but in this particular case, maybe Canada ought to
34 kaitak : That is just a ridiculous step, worthy of a country at war, or on the brink of it, not one which is just having a diplomatic spat about this flights;
35 multimark : Upon reflection, the Emirati must be very worried that Canada's stand will inspire some other nations to review EK's onslaught in their own countries.
36 Kaiarahi : They're in flagrant breach of the bilateral, which includes overflight and landing rights. The bilateral requires 12 months notice of termination. AR
37 StarAC17 : The example I know about was with AC when they were flying YYZ-DEL a few years back and Russia didn't allow them overfly rights and Canada reciprocat
38 ETStar : Does the bilateral cover military flights such as the ministers'?
39 sofianec : NOPE
40 yowza : There is no text in the bilateral that talks to the issue of military flights. So in reality the bilateral was not breached. That's really not the is
41 Kaiarahi : And your authority is? Have you read the bilateral? Do you even know where to find it?[Edited 2010-10-11 16:49:49]
42 Post contains links sofianec : God-given. Thanks for inquiring. You don't have to be patronizing and condescending just because I do not agree with you BTW. There you go - http://w
43 Longhauler : I think this is most likely the point. I can't imagine Canada's small market is much more than a passing loss to them. However, with the examples of
44 mariner : Which example from Australia do you mean? And which effects are now public there? mariner
45 PITrules : But are the affects in Australia negative? Negative to QF no doubt, but to Australia/NZ as a whole? I would think MEL, PER, BNE, AKL are better off n
46 Post contains links mariner : Australia doesn't think so, nor does New Zealand. New Zealand is a signatory to MALIAT, which is committed to further liberalization of the skies: ht
47 MarcoPoloWorld : Quote Kaihari: "As I mentioned in the other thread on this, because AC's long-haul / international routes are now profitable, it can operate break-eve
48 JoeCanuck : Canada also happens to be a different country from Australia so what's good for Australia isn't necessarily good for Canada.
49 Post contains images multimark : Australia and New Zealand are quite a bit more dependent on tourism, as a % of GDP (Aus. @4%, NZ 9%, Canada only 2%) Plus Aus. and NZ virtually requi
50 JoeCanuck : A quick expedia search shows flights from SEA to HKG from the 19th - 26th priced from CAD1264.00. YVR to HKG on the same dates shows prices from CAD1
51 SonomaFlyer : Canada holds most of the cards in this fight. Ex-pats in the UAE can fly via Europe or the U.S. if need be with a small inconvenience. In contrast, C
52 sebring : Canada's domestic airline industry was deregulated in 1987. Big deal. Here are some facts for you. The largest Canadian overseas travel markets and s
53 Post contains links wsp : Canada needs to negotiate longer advance notice times if they can't shut down their base within the contractually guaranteed cancellation time. So wh
54 yenne09 : It's amazing to see all the passions regarding a commercial disagreement. Here in Canada, we have problems almost everyday with the USA regarding «Th
55 mariner : LOL. I'm not claiming any particular virtue - I'm just saying what is, since someone else suggested the Australian example was negative to the UAE ai
56 Post contains images Markam : First of all, so... what else could the UAE have done? I mean, even before this it was very clear that the government of Canada is clearly not going t
57 threepoint : Apart from the very minor mistake (that being that EK does not offer narrowbody service to anywhere), yours was an excellent summation of the differe
58 JoeCanuck : Mr Kettle...there's a Mr Pot on line 3... Considering the number of protectionist cases that are against the US regularly in the world courts, I woul
59 sebring : But EY and QR do.
60 threepoint : Bit of a change o' tack here, but I wonder how (if at all) the non-UAE Gulf-based carriers fit into this? I'd assume they're playing it cool at the m
61 mariner : On this? Probably. But in several countries, Emirates has shown itself to be a good citizen and I don't regard their practices as any more aggressive
62 YYCowboy : "Do you think they are retards?" Yes, why yes we do, thankyou for asking. This (combined with the other thread) is one of the most interesting topics
63 Markam : Dear Sebring, "fellow", With all due respect (which is not much), more than as a Canadian, you write as a stereotypical Italian mafioso from Queens.
64 Markam : YYCowboy, Canada is a sovereign country, so it is very welcome to choose expensive, low quality air travel for whatever reasons they may have. However
65 threepoint : Except that threepoint didn't say that. I think you meant to quote Sebring?
66 Post contains images Markam : It's funny, I don't think I mentioned the U.S. a single time in my post, why do you bring American to the table? We are talking about Canada, as far
67 wsp : Neither did I assert that Canada is guilty of contractual breaches nor did I doubt that the UAE terminated the contract. Please read the text I quote
68 Post contains images Markam : You are absolutely right, sorry for that.
69 multimark : Your only digging yourself in deeper. If you'd like to make a show of where you actually are from, that gives you such an insight into Canadian polic
70 threepoint : Yours is a good line of logic, but you need to continue it further. What happens if "one of the Canadian airlines" is hurt to the point where it can'
71 Post contains images Markam : I'm sure that if Air Canada goes bust (which I hope it doesn't) someone else would take its place. WestJet would expand, a startup would enter the ma
72 threepoint : Let's not kid ourselves, there's no such thing as a free lunch. The presence of the Camp was no 'perk', I'm sure it was negotiated with an appropriat
73 Markam : I'm sure it was not free, but it is not as if the UAE are in need of money, and the decision to allow foreign bases is never purely economic. It woul
74 Emirates773ER : Ahh.. Looks like most of our nationalistic East Coasters have come out thumping their patriotic praises in this thread. The Sheikh's in Dubai and Abu
75 thenoflyzone : Listen, it could be worse. We could do what the Angolan government does. Speaking of which, i say we revoke the UAE's 6 weekly flights and only grant
76 RicardoFG : I have always rolled my eyes at Canada's stance when it came to the monopoly games they were playing when it came to foreign carriers. Protect Air Can
77 SR4ever : Frankly the UAE is playing a risky game here. I don't think Canada will ever bow into their requests, and if they terminate their Bilateral with the U
78 mariner : On what grounds? mariner
79 JoeCanuck : Since you seem to strike yourself as an expert on protectionism, I thought you could use some case studies closer to the home of the flag you wave. Y
80 Post contains images Kaiarahi : It's not just about "sparsely populated" or "disadvantaged" communities. Because of Canada's geography, it's also about service to small / medium siz
81 Post contains images Khaleej777 : Wonderful! Talk about being damned with faint praise! Honestly, reading this thread, apart from it being all very amusing, you would think you were r
82 Post contains links and images airceo : Think what you will. Side with who you will. The bottom line is that this is now a purely political issue and a messy one at that. This incident is no
83 multimark : Ah, the irony. I hate to deflate your western pride, but you do realize that's it's access to YYZ that EK is chiefly after? And that cities like Edmo
84 sebring : I find it amusing that EK's boosters throw out accusations like "Protectionist" as if we're supposed to get on our knees and beg forgiveness. Protecti
85 Post contains images Markam : This is irrelevant, since I am not making a comparative statement. Also, that I have a flag by my name doesn't make an expert in that country, for ba
86 Kaiarahi : Trying again - there's still something seriously wrong with the edit function. The UAE-Canada agreement to use Camp Mirage still has 24 days to run, a
87 RicardoFG : If the UAE were currently in a war based lets say in the midwestern United States, you could say that. But my whole point is its a slap in the face t
88 Post contains images Centre : The fares might be more or less the same, but add those hefty taxes and fees and you are there, Did you forget about the $20 "airport improvement fee
89 Markam : I will have to disagree there, it definitely was not. It was part of the base lease agreement that the UAE as a sovereign state kept all its usual pr
90 Post contains links AirNovaBAe146 : Check out this editorial from Arabian Money http://www.arabianmoney.net/business...to-a-trade-war-over-gulf-airlines/ Quite frankly, after all the bul
91 Kaiarahi : I didn't say that - quote button is playing up again, again, again, again .....
92 NorthStarDC4M : YYZ-LHR $1,244.00 USD inclusive all Taxes and Fees (BA, /nov 1st 2010) DTW-LHR $1197.00 USD (DL nov 1st 2010) Taxes and fees to/from the US ARE high,
93 Kaiarahi : GATS (General Agreement on Trade in Services) specifically excludes air traffic rights and services.
94 AirNovaBAe146 : For all those UAEers who complain about how they were doing Canada a favour by hosting Camp Mirage - note that Canadian military facilities are EXTREM
95 Markam : I'm sorry, but I think that the bullying and petulant behaviour is on the part of the Canadian government, if anything. The Canadian administration h
96 Post contains images Markam : Thanks for the info, if it is so then Canada would definitely get away with it. But again, I don't think Canada would be in compliance with the spiri
97 Post contains images Markam : Btw, I am no pro-EKer, I am simply pro free trade. It just happens that at this instance EK and the UAE are, too.
98 JoeCanuck : First, you were the one bringing up how much more expensive it is to fly internationally from comparable cities in Canada and the US. As it turns out
99 Post contains images Markam : Really? Where did I exactly do that? Seriously, I don't know where to start... you only used a pair of cities, on one geographic market, on one date,
100 VS11 : Canada is being extremely stupid to limit EK's access. They should look at it as the Ryanair effect - maybe EK will bring tons of tourists to Canada.
101 thenoflyzone : Why on earth would the U.S help out any airline from the U.A.E. ? What you say doesn't make any sense. The U.S has no right in dictating what Canada
102 Kaiarahi : Even the UAE acknowledges that negotiations have been underway for a number of years. Not getting what you want doesn't mean you've been ignored (exc
103 VS11 : I am not saying that the US has any right in dictating anything to Canada. I am saying that the US will probably help broker a deal between Canada an
104 vio : Politics aside... I can tell you one thing... As a Canadian consumer, I'm the one with very few choices to travel internationally, nevermind domestica
105 Kaiarahi : And YYZ is what EK is interested in, as a A380 hub. I really don't think you'll see them in YEG or YWG (or even YYC).
106 FLYYUL : Lobby the government to reduce their surcharges on the industry, and we will all benefit.
107 mariner : I'd be interested to know how they were planning to do that. A hub would, presumably, involve fifth (and even seventh) freedom - revenue traffic righ
108 Post contains links Kaiarahi : And now this from an official source in the UAE bastion of democracy: The official added: “But when it comes to free trade and economic liberalisati
109 Speedbird128 : They're not the saints you think. Having lived there, in my experiences, *nothing* is free or fair. :-/. All depends on point of view... As for Canad
110 VS11 : Very accurate description of Canada's behavior. Something important that you missed from the article is that the Canadians knew they didn't have perm
111 YOWza : In no way are the actions of the Canadian government similar to those of iron curtain states. I should also point out that the Gulf Daily like all ot
112 Kaiarahi : It's the Gulf News - you're buying the spin. Three other Canadian military flights landed at Mirage the same day. The only one that was refused was c
113 VS11 : Debate the argument, not those making the argument. Their argument is valid regardless of what your take on UAE censorship is. Besides, what's the bi
114 Markam : Well, if they have been in negotiations years to increase the 6x weekly frequencies and have not got pass there, I don't think those negotiations wer
115 Kaiarahi : Me too, but according to a usually very reliable publication, that's what they were demanding: see Reply 16.
116 Speedbird128 : But at what cost? How far are you prepared to go to push for 'cheaper' fares. Do you support sweatshops in asia?
117 Viscount724 : Fifth freedom rights are very common in open skies agreements. For example, the US-EU and Canada-EU open skies agreements permit unrestricted 5th fre
118 VS11 : That article doesn't open anymore but Reply 16 says that the Toronto feed would have been by EK-codeshared flights...in other words, not operated by
119 YOWza : I *am* debating the argument. You are using a UAE government propaganda mouthpiece as your basis for reason. Have you ever even set foot in the UAE t
120 Markam : I don't, but EK employees are grown ups with a contract. As far as I know EK pays the same fees, taxes and fuel prices as everyone else in Dubai, and
121 VS11 : I don't know what argument you are debating but I am debating the argument of free trade, for one. And the right of UAE to withdraw their support if
122 Post contains images YOWza : It's an interesting topic of conversation but in the grand scheme of things has zero importance to this country, its armed forces or its position on
123 Viscount724 : There are NO taxes in Dubai and other Gulf states (e.g. Qatar), with minor exceptions like banks. Not having to pay typical 25% to 40% of your profit
124 Post contains images Markam : Sure, but no one in Dubai pays taxes, it is not only Emirates, isn't it? It cannot be said that they are being subsidized by the government because o
125 Viscount724 : I didn't say they were subsidized. I just said that being based in a no-tax country is a huge advantage since you can retain 100% of your profits, an
126 Post contains images Markam : Well, then we agree. However, I don't see why EK should be penalized for their country advantage as sometimes it is suggested here. P.S. Btw, happy A
127 VS11 : No idea what propaganda you are talking about. From the very beginning my argument has been that Canada will concede (how much I don't know) because
128 sebring : Perhaps the biggest advantage is in aircraft finance. When Dubai (now UAe) is financing your aircraft purchases, normal credit Why does the US help t
129 VS11 : There is an incredible amount of UAE cash in the US, and I am sure in Canada too. I didn't say Canada would cave to US pressure. I said Canada would
130 mariner : Who code shares with Emirates in that area of the world? And it would have been very simple for the Canadians to put the kibosh on any potential new
131 PITrules : It is estimated that half of the passengers using BUF are now Canadian, and that airport has seen tremendous growth over the last 10 years ever since
132 VS11 : Frankly, I don't know what the UAE were bargaining for. Based on the summary of the quoted article that wouldn't open, they were asking for up to 50
133 mariner : I don't think the concept is radical, it's just that in most countries in the world airlines can't just up and start a code share - it requires some
134 AirNovaBAe146 : Don't waste brain cells worrying about how this supposed hub was going to be built. It is not going to happen.
135 ZBA2CGX : Going to be hard to assert control when you only have 25% ownership of the airline. I'm sure the CDN government will take a close look if EK / EY are
136 mariner : LOL. I agree it isn't going to happen. I have trouble believing it was ever intended. mariner
137 Post contains images multimark : Oh right, the USA will put the pressure on Canada. The same USA had a xenophobic hissy fit when Dubai Port World dared to try and invest in American
138 Post contains links VS11 : As this discussion seemed to revolve around the protectionism of Canada, I was curious to see the impact of NAFTA on the Canadian economy looking for
139 Quokka : EK feeds passengers to AC on routes within Canada. The EK timetable lists YYC, YEA, YMQ, YOW, YVR and YWG as all being serviced via YYZ connecting to
140 multimark : All you've revealed with that statement is your total lack of knowledge about the aviation market in Canada. One has nothing to do with the other. An
141 Post contains images VS11 : Any reason why you are looking at Air India's partners?
142 mariner : Mysteriously, the last part of that posts seems to have disappeared when I edited to fix up a spelling mistake: Try again: These things are regulated
143 mariner : No - LOL - I don't know why that is. I was on the Emirates website, clicked on alliances and it took me there. So the question remains, is Air Canada
144 VS11 : I have never claimed any particular knowledge on the air market in Canada. I just question the protectionist attitude of the Canadian Government on t
145 Post contains links Emirates773ER : A very good article in the star today on this subject, apparently their is quite a bit of support for Emirates to increase their daily flights to Cana
146 kevin : I live in Canada and I find it very frustrating that I have to pay a lot of money to airlines that provide low quality service. And u know what else,
147 wsp : You do realize that the Canadian news reports are based statements from various government officials dutifully written down by "journalists"? All we
148 Quokka : No, they are not code share partners as far as I know, but they do have an interline agreement. If you book through EK they will connect with AC or a
149 multimark : Simply laughable. Do tell us when the last time you flew Air Canada was (the truth, not IBB fantasy). However as an American I should give you credit
150 sebring : Does free trade work evenly across all industries? Of course not. Just ask the millions of Americans whose manufacturing jobs have been exported to C
151 YOWza : So just so I understand, you are claiming that the plethora of papers in this country are blindly towing the Canadian government line? That's laughab
152 wsp : Not at all. Indeed, that is why I didn't claim it. Yes, in fact some of the articles quoted criticism from opposition politicians. Yes, a journalist
153 VS11 : You are right - there are plenty of US carriers whose offerings when compared to international carriers products are crappy. However, the US Governme
154 Post contains links matthew11 : Here is another article with more info. It states UAE wanted at least 4 additional flights per carrier. Canada only offer 1 extra flight per carrier o
155 YOWza : Thanks. My girlfriend is a reporter at the Toronto Star, no need for the lecture. What exactly would you like to verify? Was there not a denied landi
156 VS11 : Thanks for posting. After reading it, I support the UAE even more! All they wanted was basically each carrier to be able to do ONE daily flight. How
157 matthew11 : Yea, I don't think it hurts to have daily flights. I can see why the UAE is upset. At least some government officials see the UAE deserves a little m
158 Kaiarahi : I suggest you read a little more carefully. 1) There are conflicting reports on what UAE was seeking. The National/Financial Post (thoroughly reputab
159 9252fly : Let me get this straight,the UAE wants to have offer daily service? It seems the problem stems from the fact they have two airlines wanting to offer
160 Post contains images CharlieNoble : The logical result of those fantastic "Free Market" processes we have down here Regardless of the moral or economic merits of Canada's policies - whi
161 VS11 : Well, Canada is a huge country. One carrier can serve daily one coast, the other carrier can server daily the other coast. The two carriers are based
162 JoeCanuck : The USA has a population approximately 10 times that of Canada. They currently allow 49 flights per week. Canada allows 6 flights per week. On a per
163 Post contains links mariner : Be that as it may, reporters/journalists are not immune to jumping on a bandwagon - maybe fully believing the bandwagon is "the truth" - and it is no
164 Post contains images Kaiarahi : There's long-standing antagonism to AC in parts of the west. CP (and Wardair) were regarded as western airlines, while AC was hated as the government
165 LAXtoATL : What do you mean they currently allow? I do not believe the USA has any restrictions on the number of flights UAE carriers can operate to the U.S. Th
166 Kaiarahi : They already do. Is that why the U.S. has restrictions on the ownership of airlines operating domestic flights? That's about 1.35M seats each way per
167 Viscount724 : US-UAE is open skies. Any US or UAE carrier can operate as many flights as they want to/from any airports in the US and UAE. US-Qatar is also an open
168 Kaiarahi : Behind the scenes loan guarantees and bridge financing to support AMR's "rescue" in the early 90s, if memory serves me correctly. The government was
169 LAXtoATL : Typo. Clearly I meant daily flights. What does ownership have to do with whether or not the they would allow any UAE carrier (which is 100% foreign o
170 Post contains links mariner : Just because 5th freedom is available doesn't mean they are automatically granted. There are - usually - all manner of sub-clauses to them, any numbe
171 Post contains links multimark : Oh really? This would be the same US Congress that in 2006 went into a xenophobic tizzy about Dubai Port World operating US ports: "A United Arab Emi
172 LAXtoATL : Once again this is not a foreign ownership issue!!! The U.S. has an Open Skies treaty with the UAE, therefore the US government has already said that
173 Post contains links wsp : The offer from the Canadian side that preceded the UAE's reaction. You'd think that is essential to determine if the UAE's reaction was disproportion
174 yowza : I'm afraid I disagree. Even if there was no offer beyond what is currently allowed throwing a tantrum is in no way acceptable. Um re-read the sentenc
175 sebring : You're wrong. Air Canada wanted LAX-SYD fifth freedom flights which the US allows but Australia did not. The joint venture with NZ had nothing to do
176 mariner : If Air Canada didn't think they could fly the route, why did they announce it? Do they not have good lawyers? That's true, wires crossed, apologies.
177 JoeCanuck : Regardless, on a per capita basis, 'Protectionist' Canada has more flights from the UAE than the 'Free Trade' USA. It would seem that free trade isn'
178 Quokka : Sorry, but that appears illogical. If at present EK do not operate more flights on a per capita basis out of the US, that doesn't make Canada have fr
179 Post contains links mariner : I really don't have a horse in this race, I'm not involved, but I find it all interesting, because - always - there is more than one side to every is
180 drgmobile : Australia is not a bastion of Open Skies perhaps, but its pretty close when one compares the country with Canada. Protectionism is the exception in A
181 connies4ever : Exactly. Also, CP Air/Canadian, as it was dying, was selected by the feds as the preferred carrier for CF staff travelling in-country, not on Forces
182 drgmobile : Perhaps. But this sure has a lot of people talking openly about the matter once again. I think AC is a great carrier and frequent flyer loyalty count
183 Post contains images wsp : When politicians report about governmental actions they have a stake in how the situation is perceived because their political future depends on it (
184 Post contains links Emirates773ER : Simply not true. I think sometimes we miscalculate that our politicians are not the smartest when compared to those Sheikhs on the other side of the
185 yowza : I fear we've fallen into a battle of semantics here. Unfortunately the more replies you contribute to a thread the more off message you get. My sugge
186 MattRB : That's great to know, but there needs to be a breakdown accompanying those numbers. How much of that 45 cents per mile goes to the government coffers
187 Quokka : Not disputing your figures at all, but do you have a link? The reason why I ask is that another poster provided a link that stated that Canada was no
188 Kaiarahi : Transport Canada bureaucrats could. There's an interesting letter to the editor in today's Ottawa Citizen from a former Chief of Defence Staff and De
189 Kaiarahi : So what's your definition of a hub?
190 YYCowboy : Around and around and around we go, where the jet lands, nobody knows. If anything, the UAE's actions, as petty as they seem, brought this issue to th
191 MattRB : Plenty of room at the former Camp Mirage for EK to park all those planes they just ordered. Their 777s would do just fine. The question is, are there
192 kaitak : I thought the UAE was taking things too far when it ordered Canada to close Camp Mirage, but now - on hearing that they have actually lobbied against
193 YYCowboy : Hmmm, I can't seem to edit my post above properly, it doesn't read quite right and not what I typed. I have a hunch there will be traffic interested i
194 Quokka : You have heard from whom? The fact is that every country wanting a seat would have been actively lobbying against every other candidate. Every countr
195 Post contains links MattRB : Just for reference, here is the agreement: http://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/doc.php?did=185&lang=eng
196 yowza : Even if the cost of using the base was $0 the 152 soldiers we have lost and the total cost of operations to Canada to assist in keeping the region sa
197 mariner : By whose definition of "too far"? I think for the UAE this is bigger than just the Canada issue and I think the UAE has sent a very clear message, no
198 VS11 : Thank you! Most of the Canadian remarks here were coming from some misguided feeling of national pride instead of looking at the bigger picture.
199 Kaiarahi : Looking at a big picture doesn't do much to ease the immediate pain of taking it in a fundamental orifice.
200 MattRB : "We'll resort to petty political blackmail to help our businesses." That's the message. We've received it loud and clear.
201 rameshksm : Or the UAE airlines may just not yet have aircraft that can serve the longer distances to US airports efficiently.
202 mariner : If you want to put that interpretation on it, sure, why not? But many of the charges laid against Emirates (and by implication the UAE) are just as p
203 Kaiarahi : Out of interest, why is national pride "misguided"?
204 Quokka : What pain has been suffered apart from a few politicians not being able to appear on TV addressing the troops in Afghanistan in order to boost their
205 VS11 : Pride is a misguided feeling in general - personal or national, it doesn't matter. It is simply a function of one's self-perception. Pride is never a
206 drgmobile : And from the original article: "Air Canada and Transport Canada oppose the idea of linking air negotiations to geopolitics, though. The fear is that
207 pnwtraveler : Define how you see a monopoly. Signing liberalized air agreements with the European Union? Having wide open cross border Canada/US air travel? Shall
208 Kaiarahi : Here's an attempt at a big picture from a Canadian perspective (with the caveat that I'm a Kiwi who's been living in Canada for 35 years, who makes a
209 mariner : Comes to that, how about their national pride? It was obvious decades ago that Dubai was/could be a crucial hub. The First World airlines were gratef
210 Kaiarahi : And I forgot: 8) The government, which is a minority government, is swimming upstream against public opinion that is increasingly opposed to Canadian
211 mariner : Maybe public opinion is right? mariner
212 Kaiarahi : Maybe. But it's also about supporting a UN resolution to commit troops, Canada's relationship with the elephant to the south, and a Parliamentary res
213 mariner : But those are internal Canadian issues. How about the UAE's internal issues, they're the ones that have to live with the consequences? As I said, the
214 VS11 : So if the goal is to capture the money Indian immigrants to Canada would spend and to use it to finance/subsidize air services to remote areas with d
215 Kaiarahi : Agreed - I was just trying to present a Canadian overview and maybe help people understand that it's much more complex than knee-jerk protectionism.
216 Kaiarahi : Exactly - thanks for making my point. That's why it's in Canada's interest to promote ties and trade with India which is a somewhat bigger market tha
217 mariner : Oh. I tried to do some of that in post #209. I could add a whole lot more, but most of it would be political, not aviation, and probably contentious.
218 JoeCanuck : There is no shortage of flights from Canada to India. A quick search shows a dozen airlines, (all but one are international carriers), that can take
219 Viscount724 : That was a very good deal for the Canadian Armed Forces as they needed replacements for the 5 707s. Had the government not bought them, someone else
220 Viscount724 : AC only announced that they had applied for the route, subject to government approval. That's a very common strategy. Look at all the Africa routes D
221 Kaiarahi : Fair enough. I was thinking more about trade and economic policy, internal UAE politics, internal UAE public perceptions, international relations, et
222 Kaiarahi : There were other options. CF were not enthusiastic at the time.
223 mariner : Most airlines announce routes when they they know the authority is or would be available. For example, it would be very foolish for any 4th airline t
224 ojas : And I wish to point out that Air India is starting a non stop to YYZ from DEL. So practically the entire nation is connected to YYZ through one stop
225 Kaiarahi : Whatever one thinks of the merits of Canada's position, it seems to me that UAE has overplayed its hand disastrously. Either there has been a complete
226 ojas : The meeting is going on at DOH. an announcement should come out by Sunday. BTW that is Blue skies agreement ?
227 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Aha - I'm not surprised. Blue Sky is Canada's new (2006) policy, established by the current government, that essentially sets open skies (including 5
228 drgmobile : In theory yes, but it is not being implemented that way. The Blue Sky policy is meaningless.
229 Emirates773ER : Their is a reason for the silence, as usual their will be no reaction from the canadian side, there is a lot at stake here for the canadians compared
230 drgmobile : 27,000 Canadians also live and work in the UAE under work permits.
231 Kaiarahi : That's subject to GATT. Air Services are not.[Edited 2010-10-15 06:30:07]
232 Kaiarahi : Interestingly, Sri Lanka has approached Canada to negotiate a bilateral. Sri Lanka bought back EK's 43% stake in UL earlier this year and UL now compe
233 yowza : Do you have any more info on this? This could turn this situation on its head! YOWza
234 ojas : Wait till Sunday afternoon (India time) .... I do have some clue .. but I feel it's not appropriate to disclose it now.
235 Post contains links and images mariner : But do they want to play hardball? There seems to be some pouring of oil on troubled waters going on and - some say - the offer of one additional fre
236 Malayil : Its great that AI is starting direct service between YYZ and DEL again. but not every Indian in Canada is from BOM or DEL. There are quite a few peopl
237 ojas : Well AI is providing a one stop connection to more places than what EK is doing, so it's equal. Transit times via LHR, FRA, BRU are as good as EK's.
238 Post contains links Kaiarahi : But http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...e-canadian-flights/article1758063/ "Within hours of Mr. Van Loan’s comments hitting the newswires, anoth
239 mariner : Yes, I read all of that. And it seems - to me - that none of them are taking a particularly hard line. Do you not think there are attempts to pour oi
240 mariner : That edit glitch has happened again. The line should read: Similarly, I wonder how many pax are flying Emirates to YYZ, when their final destination
241 RUHFlyer : A bit of topic, but may I ask what's wrong with Saudi Arabia and why are you putting it on par with Iraq and Iran ?!
242 Kaiarahi : We'll see - the current PM is not known for generosity when he's been crossed. If I were betting, I'd say new rights for QR, expanded rights for TK,
243 VS11 : Shouldn't these be happening anyway, regardless of whatever the story with the UAE carriers is? If these are happening as some sort of retaliation to
244 Kaiarahi : They may just be happening faster - we'll see when the new Qatar bilateral is announced on Sunday. As I keep on saying, there's much more in the mix
245 Kaiarahi : The Canadian Minister of International Trade is in Kuwait today. Watch for him to show up in DOH on Sunday for the announcement of the Qatar bilatera
246 mariner : Seriously off topic, but, for starters, I wouldn't regard Saudi Arabia as an open society. It's tough to get a tourist visa to go there. And I'll be
247 Kaiarahi : AC was. The PM was inclined to give EK some degree of increased access until UAE poked him in the eye 3 times. The way this is now playing out sugges
248 mariner : Not everyone sees it as a monumental diplomatic cock-up by the UAE. Hey, if you want Canada to give the UAE another kick ion the nuts, kick away, see
249 JoeCanuck : As many have pointed out, Canada is already very well served internationally by dozens of international carriers. Any hint that Canada doesn't welcome
250 pnwtraveler : EY has always been reasonable. They would gladly accept another YYZ flight in addition to their 3. It was EK who had the option of taking 6x per week
251 Kaiarahi : They alienated the PM, a natural ally (he's from YYC, home of WardAir, PWA, CP and WS, where AC is a dirty word) and then compounded it by poking him
252 mariner : Airlines can;t negotiate bilaterals. Their state does that. There's a lot of assumptions in there. How do you know they failed to take those things i
253 Post contains links matthew11 : Here is another article just released. It actually states that 1 extra flight offered to each airline must be served to a different city than Toronto.
254 pnwtraveler : Fully aware of that. My point is about EY and how they operate. Hence also my point about Abu Dhabi since it is the UAE that negotiates the bilateral
255 JoeCanuck : Canada won't do anything to reduce UAE overflights. Sure, they could...but won't. There's no need to and it opens up a can of worms nobody wants opene
256 mariner : But if the article posted in #253 is correct, and it is in line with the other statements, Etihad didn't accept another Canadian flight - or the UAE
257 VS11 : It seems to me Canada was really digging itself into a hole. It goes as given that any serious air service especially between big trade centers shoul
258 pnwtraveler : They wouldn't just accept an additional flight for EY in the Bilateral when EK is asking for such substantial additional ones. They would be negotiat
259 mariner : But history says otherwise, as do you: Whatever the airlines might want, it depends entirely on what their government can negotiate. I don't see how
260 Post contains images A5XX : Canada is a sovereign country, and the government officials can do as they please. Business is business.. and politics is politics. It is what it is.
261 LAXtoATL : Your sources are likely wrong. EY is the carrier of Abu Dhabi, which happens to also be the ruling emirate of the UAE. So, there is no way that EY is
262 9252fly : Seems an interim solution could be for Canada to serve 12 months notice of it's intent to cancel the current bilateral and unilaterally grant EY 7 we
263 JoeCanuck : Comparing the Canadian presence in Mirage with airline flights is asinine and insulting in itself. The Canadian Armed Forces weren't in Camp Mirage j
264 LAXtoATL : I understand exactly what you are saying, Canada has definitely paid a price for their presence (as have the other countries contributing in the effo
265 JoeCanuck : Indeed the price was not paid by the UAE. In exchange for not putting themselves in harms way, they let the countries who are willing to shoulder tha
266 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the thread lock, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Feel free
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Aeromexico To SFO, DEN And YYZ Confirmed posted Thu Nov 27 2008 08:31:08 by AM744
Jet Airways JFK And YYZ Flight Numbers Swapped posted Sat Aug 2 2008 17:54:33 by Psimpson
YQL Seeks YVR And YYZ Flights posted Mon Apr 21 2008 21:47:16 by CYQL
AC YYZ-CCS And YYZ-POS posted Thu Mar 6 2008 15:57:07 by CayMan
Start Of KLM Service To ORD And YYZ? posted Sun Feb 17 2008 23:51:41 by Tango-Bravo
Loads On EWR-YTM And YYZ-YTM posted Wed Jan 16 2008 18:06:50 by YUL777
Skyservice YYZ-FAO And YYZ-ACE Flights posted Sun Jan 14 2007 20:48:52 by Matt
Rumor: EK To IAH And YYZ In 2007? posted Mon Nov 27 2006 03:50:40 by Triley1057
DL SLC To ASE, BLI, DSM, FAR, FSD, YYJ, And YYZ posted Mon Mar 6 2006 19:16:26 by Pilottim747
Why No AC/US Codeshare YYZ-PHL And YYZ-CLT? posted Sun Nov 20 2005 20:29:14 by PlaneLuver