MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10243 posts, RR: 40 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17361 times:
Quoting Quokka (Reply 1): What is "new" compared to existing business class?
Business seats that can turn into completely flat sky "beds" although smaller than those in F a la Swiss I suppose. They still have the "old style" C class seats on their A380s.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14321 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17111 times:
Quoting Quokka (Reply 1): Any details of where the article is? A magazine, a web-link?
I saw it mentioned in the Airways article about them introducing the A380.
Quoting columba (Thread starter): Hopefully this will finally put an end to the "Will LH cancel the 747-8" discussions around here
Lufthansa didn't get where they are by buying planes they don't want. I don't see why they should be making any apologies for buying planes few others seem to want.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 6934 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17064 times:
Maybe it will be less of a disappointment than the C class presented on the A380.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
Hirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 581 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16812 times:
Quoting 2707200X (Reply 4): Maybe it will be less of a disappointment than the C class presented on the A380.
I don't see where the C class on the A380 is a dissapointment. It is nothing else then on the rest of their long haul fleet and they make a lot of money with it. LH consentrated on introducing a new first class on the A380.
New C class on the new Jumbo was what was talked about the last years.
Quoting columba (Thread starter): Hopefully this will finally put an end to the "Will LH cancel the 747-8" discussions around here.
I could not understand this endless ongoing discussion anyway as there were absolutely no sings of a cancellation.
Someone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 2778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16729 times:
This is old news. Lufthansa has said for a long time that they plan a new C-class with the introduction on 787-8i, and that this also will be installed on the rest of the fleet, but not before the first 747-8i is delivered
LXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16196 times:
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 6): This is old news. Lufthansa has said for a long time that they plan a new C-class with the introduction on 787-8i, and that this also will be installed on the rest of the fleet, but not before the first 747-8i is delivered
given that the last aircraft were refited not too long ago with the current C Class product they also need to fly for a while probably at least 5 years or so, in order that a further seat upgrade is economically feasible.
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6871 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16046 times:
Quoting LXA340 (Reply 7): given that the last aircraft were refited not too long ago with the current C Class product they also need to fly for a while probably at least 5 years or so, in order that a further seat upgrade is economically feasible.
LH is first and foremost known as a reliable airline that provides a consistent product across their entire network. That's what they're known for and that's what their customers expect. So I don't see LH having a mis-matched business class product for that long. If they introduce a new product with the 748, I expect to see that same product rolled out fleet wide very quickly.
LH is not very smart, why didn't they introduce this with the A380?? Why does the flagship have a lower standard than other planes? It will mean additional costs to upgrade the A380s.
B6A322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14323 times:
Quoting Thorben (Reply 9): LH is not very smart, why didn't they introduce this with the A380??
Not to sound harsh, but I'm sure LH had a fair amount of information on which they based this decision. First and foremost, just because its a bigger, flagship plane doesn't mean it has to have everything a notch above what the rest of the fleet has. Further, although the product is now starting to age, lets not forget that Lufthansa's primary competitor on routes to the USA, Airberlin, is still lightyears behind even Lufthansa. And Lufthansa's product is not half bad. You can't be the first to everything, and what you aren't the first to you can do better at than the next guy.
Just as an afterthought, Press wise, this also works out much better - think about it. You're going to get the same amount of press over a new plane and a new first class as you would if you introduced two (or even three) new class configurations/seats. That said, it makes sense from a press perspective so that each new product gets more attention.
And yes, I have flown with LH C class and the C classes of their competitors, and I don't find it at all bad. Its not about always delivering the newest gizmo, its about consistent, quality service. (Like those DC9's at Delta )
The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
Braniff727Ultra From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 109 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14297 times:
Thorban,
LH isn't very smart? They are the class of commercial aviation; don't see the logic in your post. As for your other comment/gripe about why the new seats weren't debuted on the 380's; WHY/WHAT makes that a superior product over the 747? The 380 has a LONG way to go before it will be able to say it is a better product than the 747 has proven to be. It would seem to me that they delayed the debut because they were still working on getting the new seeting just right thus it isn't in the 380 but will be in the new 747's. That is a common issue with vendors for a completely new product line (i.e A380) and is certainly something anyone involved with manufacturing can relate too.
On a personal note: the 747 is and ALWAYS will be the CLASS of long haul!!
LH's main competitor to the US is not AB. Their main competitors are BA, AF/KL, VS, somewhat IB, DL/NW, AA, and maybe even somewhat their Star Alliance partners and colonies (UA, US, CO, LX, SN). Also even 9W and even SQ.
In addition, LH doesn't even use their A380s to the US. They are sent to NRT, JNB, and PEK. Service to the US will follow sooner or later, but it is just one among many.
LH's business class is not competitive against that of many others. It was a big big disappointment to see what they have on their A380s. Many others have better seats, EK, EY, QR, SQ, CX, LX, IT, 9W, AC, and others have fully flat beds in business class. Those are the ones that LH is competing against, too.
It seems LH understands now that that's what is required of a true premium global airline. Why else would they start outfitting their fleet with it now?
The 747 certainly is a great plane, but it is not the class in long-haul any longer. It has been kicked off the throne by a bigger, more comfortable, and quieter airplane.
N14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2313 posts, RR: 25 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13763 times:
Quoting Braniff727Ultra (Reply 11): On a personal note: the 747 is and ALWAYS will be the CLASS of long haul!!
"Always" is a pretty long time. Just give the Y3 a chance...
I was wondering at what point LH will receive new A 380s with the new business class seats but I found the answer in one of the comments to the aero.de article: all A 380s to be delivered 2011 will still have the old businsess class. In other words, starting from 2012 LH will receive A 380s with the new seats.
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13656 times:
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 13): all A 380s to be delivered 2011 will still have the old businsess class. In other words, starting from 2012 LH will receive A 380s with the new seats.
B6A322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13577 times:
Quoting Thorben (Reply 12): LH's main competitor to the US is not AB. Their main competitors are BA, AF/KL, VS, somewhat IB, DL/NW, AA, and maybe even somewhat their Star Alliance partners and colonies (UA, US, CO, LX, SN). Also even 9W and even SQ.
This may be, but to and from Germany, I know I'd rather fly direct than via LHR, CDG, AMS or any other airport. And in that respect, DL only has flat beds on its planes to/from LHR at the moment.
Indeed. I remember when they first debuted the A340-600 on Lufthansa, with the now current C class product, the tray tables did not fit fully into the armrest because of cables which ran in the space. It was the first seat of its type for Recaro.
The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26697 posts, RR: 83 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13381 times:
It might just be a case the new seat is not yet available, though considering LH should have been operating the 747-8I by now, it could also be that the new seat is available, but Airbus is forcing LH to install the old seats on their initial tranche of A380s in order to limit reconfiguration work. AF, for example, wanted to alter their A380 configuration to add a Premium Voyageur cabin, but Airbus would not allow it because it would have bogged down XFW even more than it already is. So the first four AF A388s will enter service without a Premium Voyageur cabin and will need to be reconfigured at a later date.
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1197 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13317 times:
There is some more information about the new LH J class in this Business Traveller news piece. Also an admission that the current seat is "not at the very top of the market compared with certain seats offered by some carriers."
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12607 times:
Quoting B6A322 (Reply 15): This may be, but to and from Germany, I know I'd rather fly direct than via LHR, CDG, AMS or any other airport. And in that respect, DL only has flat beds on its planes to/from LHR at the moment.
Most people would fly direct, but many don't have the possibility.
I think it is a bit harsh to claim that Airbus didn't "allow" the configuration to be changed. I guess they said yes, but it would delay the plane for some time and cost more money, so that the airlines decided not to do it.
Seats would certainly be available, but I guess that the other seats were already ordered and they couldn't change to new ones without having to pay the others ones, too.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 17): Also an admission that the current seat is "not at the very top of the market compared with certain seats offered by some carriers."
Hear, hear, how come LH needed all that criticism first to understand what customers want?
LXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12105 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
LH is first and foremost known as a reliable airline that provides a consistent product across their entire network. That's what they're known for and that's what their customers expect. So I don't see LH having a mis-matched business class product for that long. If they introduce a new product with the 748, I expect to see that same product rolled out fleet wide very quickly.
Well the current Business Class was introduced at the end of 2003 with the arrival of the A346's and only by mid 2008 all the aircraft were converted, a very very long time considering that their previous product at the time was anything but competitive in the premium segment. At least their current C Class product is rather competitive and not perfect but there is much worse out there. Nevertheless the LH product in F is really a disgrace, it's a craddle seat that goes fully flat. nothing more. But probably we will have this product another 3 years or so until all planes were reconfigured, whch would mean that LH had since 1998 the same product in F that is a very long time and I can't think of any other premium airline having a worn out product that long. Yes their new F product looks great, but LH can't say that they needed to wait until today that something like this is available then EK has their suites already for sure 5 years or so.
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6871 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11883 times:
Keep in mind that when LH decided on the current J configuration, no one in Europe other than BA had flat beds in Business class. Remember that the A380 was originally slated to enter service 2 years ago. To this day only BA and IB have it. AF only has flat beds on the A380. And LX is owned by LH so not really a competitor. So for all intents and purposes LH's J product is no worse than their most direct competitors.
As I said before, LH has never been known for having the latest toys on their planes. What they are known and people pay for is their incredible consistency across their network and their fenomenal efficiency and reliability. People don't fly LH because they have the best seat or the best AVOD. They fly LH because it gets them to their destination on time and more than any other airline, the customer knows exactly what they're getting from the minute they show up at the airport until they arrive at their destination. Ironically, that's exactly the same reason why McDonalds is the most popular restaurant chain in the world, but I digress People don't eat a McD's because the food is good. They eat there because it's familiar and reliable.
abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4915 posts, RR: 55 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11787 times:
OMG, LH will FINALLY join modernity with a full-flat C class. Y'all have made me so happy. True, I will have to wait for a while to get this on my commuter flight (CCS-FRA), but at least now I can hold on to hope . Now, let's work on those meal portions please (please Stefan ) ...
dairy From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 237 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10972 times:
Quoting LXA340 (Reply 19): Well the current Business Class was introduced at the end of 2003 with the arrival of the A346's and only by mid 2008 all the aircraft were converted, a very very long time considering that their previous product at the time was anything but competitive in the premium segment.
you are mixing something. All Airbus A340-600 had the "new" business class from the beginning.
The first 10 Airbus A340-600 ( D-AIHA to DAIHL) had only 2-class-config, from September 2006 on the delivery of the next 14 Airbus A340-600 took place (D-AIHM-D-AIHZ). And they had a 3-class config from the beginning.
--> So the conversion of the first 10 Airbus A340-600 from a two-class a/c to a three-class a/c was finsihed in April 2009 (last ot get FCl on the A346: D-AIHD) , not the conversion with Buisness!!!!
AV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1265 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10806 times:
Quoting Braniff727Ultra (Reply 11): On a personal note: the 747 is and ALWAYS will be the CLASS of long haul!!
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26697 posts, RR: 83 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10765 times:
Quoting Thorben (Reply 18): I think it is a bit harsh to claim that Airbus didn't "allow" the configuration to be changed. I guess they said yes, but it would delay the plane for some time and cost more money, so that the airlines decided not to do it.
Reports in this forum at the time reported Airbus denied AF's request. *shrug*
It has been said that LH is moving First Class from the upper deck to the nose / A Zone on the 747-8 and they have chosen a contractor to supply things like closets and such. I am going to hazard a guess that the A380 First Class suite will be fitted to the 747-8?
[Edited 2010-10-09 11:40:35]
25 BMI727: As someone more likely to fly business than first, this is a disappointment. But there are plenty of good reasons to do it.
26 SR4ever: All this is very good news. Angled lie-flat was really falling behind current standards. Within the LH Group, SN is also to refurbish its longhaul cab
27 LondonCity: Besides BA, VS was also offering flat-beds in its Upper Class (biz class). Not true. AF has also been criticised by regular pax because, like LH, it
28 328JET: Very funny to read in the first article, that the new seats can be used starting from 2011. As far as i know, the first delivery to Lufthansa is alrea
29 LHPII: LH group is a huge buyer of seats, and gets them at very discounted price, therfore this doesn't play any role. LH's main competitor on transatlantic
30 LHPII: ...I wonder where you got that information from?!? Cargo version is delayed again but pax not!
31 tjcab: Time to let go? While I do love the 747, it was great...THEN.
32 janmnastami: Alitalia's new A330s have flat beds in business class.
33 328JET: The delivery was planned for late 2011 BEFORE the latest delay to the B748F. So, do you still believe end of 2011 for the -8I...?
34 BMI727: There is no reason not to. The issue that delayed the cargo version is not causing a problem for the passenger version. The flutter thing is not a pr
35 328JET: As the B748I is already delayed several times, i expect an early 2012 delivery to Lufthansa. Remember, Lufthansa is NOT getting the first one, they a
36 BMI727: So do you have any specific idea what is going to cause the delay, or are you just playing percentages that major airliner projects get delayed? The
37 328JET: The problem with certification of the -8I is, that it needs the -8F to be certified first, as a lot of tests are made with the freighter. That means:
38 BMI727: 1. The 747-8F certification has been moved back to "mid 2011" which is obviously before "late 2011" so no problem there. 2. If there is another probl
39 328JET: I cannot share your optimism, but maybe i will be surprised next year.
40 blackredgold: ...And that's the exact point! Unlike many of its competitors, LH will retrofit its entire fleet with new seats in order to have the same product on
41 BMI727: You're making contradictory arguments. If the freighter needs to do so much certification work for the pax versio, then the passenger testin could ta
42 328JET: No, i do not. The B748F is far away from being certified, although originally, it should be delivered in this quarter already. Assuming delivery in J
43 BMI727: Yes it is. You say that the F needs to be certified before the Intercontinental and that is why the I will be delayed now. But then you also say that
44 PacificClipper: I wonder if AF will now have to re-think their recent announcement to upgrade their C class seats even though their next C seat still won't be lie-fla
45 ZRH: You are right, but it is only a question of months. Next year all 332 will be gone and most 343 will be refitted with the new business class.
46 SR4ever: Isn't the re-fitting of the 343s supposed to be complete by late-2011?
47 ZRH: Yes I think so. Eventually all 343 will be refitted and in about a year is done.
48 SR4ever: So far, SFO and BOS already benefit from the new J class. Which destinations next? HKG? NRT? LAX?
49 LXA340: I wasn't talking about the roll out on the A346's I was talking of the upgrade on the remaining long haul fleet of which the B744's were the last in
50 LHPII: .......this is not religion, so it is not what I believe or not, it is what Boeing says. And Boeing delayed Freighter version, and kept Pax version w
51 LXA340: Nevertheless SWISS offered since mid 2004 on all it's furthest long haul destinations a lie flat product and with LH this was the case first around 4
52 LHPII: ....LH started with lie-flats one year before, but with its fleet size and all the problems that followed the seat and especially eTES AVOD system, t
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