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Air Tahiti Nui Future Fleet Question  
User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11339 times:

I saw an Air Tahiti Nui Airbus A340 taking off at LAX recently (video below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k1uA8v9lBw

If I recall correctly, their A340s were originally flying with other carriers Does anyone know how old these birds are? Also, has there been any credible news on fleet renewal for this niche carrier? I imagine they might go for some new twins like the B787 or A350.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7334 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11326 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
If I recall correctly, their A340s were originally flying with other carriers Does anyone know how old these birds are?

You can see the delivery dates....not too old at all...Only one is ex another carrier

385 Airbus A340-313X F-OJGF Air Tahiti Nui 28-12-2001 Active F-WWJC
395 Airbus A340-313X F-OJTN Air Tahiti Nui 18-01-2002 Active C-GZIA
438 Airbus A340-313X F-OSEA Air Tahiti Nui 27-12-2002 Active F-WWJV
446 Airbus A340-313X F-OSUN Air Tahiti Nui 27-12-2002 Active F-WWJA
668 Airbus A340-313X F-OLOV Air Tahiti Nui 13-06-2005 Active F-WWJD


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26016 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11317 times:

All 5 aircraft are relative new 2000-2005 builds.

ATN currently has surplus capacity and has been trying to lease 1 frame out. Its also been doing charters in Europe for people like the UK Ministry of Defence.

Long term, I think ATN needs to figure out a way to turn a profit and ween itself off endless government subsidies before its makes major (and financially costly) refleeting moves.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineakizidy214 From Jamaica, joined Sep 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

What do their load factors look like from LAX-PPT & vice versa?


DCA
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7334 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11064 times:

Rest assured I think you will see twin jets replace them eventually. I'm thinking A350s... but not for some time yet

User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10769 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Long term, I think ATN needs to figure out a way to turn a profit and ween itself off endless government subsidies before its makes major (and financially costly) refleeting moves.

It is not Air Tahiti Nui's job to make a profit.

The airline exists as a national insurance policy, to ensure that the tourism industry does not collapse if a foreign (or even fellow-French) carrier with a significant market share decides to exit the Tahiti market, either due to low loads or problems elsewhere within its network.

As such, we need to understand that the role which TN does undertake at times like now is really as a promotional arm, to showcase superior service standards to what the bulk of its passengers are used to in North America, France and Japan.

In practice, the fleet will continue to be of 343 aircraft until the A350 is available, when it will replace the fleet because it enjoys enormous tax write-offs as a "French" aircraft.

That's just how it is.


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2087 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10755 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
It is not Air Tahiti Nui's job to make a profit.

I think a desired goal, however, is to break even... but TN isn't doing that any time soon.


User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10717 times:

I thoroughly agree with koruman; however, it is always more pleasant to get a profit. Their ticket prices are horrible yet they are operating with major losses. From what i understand and from my personal impressions at PPT (I personally flew in and out on NZ) and from my impressions from Auckland when observing their gate, they had far too few passengers for a 343. If I were them, I would calculate long-term viability of 787-900 (or even 330-200). I know what the resale value of 340-313X is but we are discussing essentially 15 years of future losses otherwise; it could be just cheaper to pay now and recover it gradually. Would they have issues with ETOPS on PPT-LAX?

User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8601 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10708 times:
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Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 7):
Would they have issues with ETOPS on PPT-LAX?

I wouldn't think that there would be ETOPS problems , NZ used to operate 767s on that sector , didn't they ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10650 times:

Quoting akizidy214 (Reply 3):
What do their load factors look like from LAX-PPT & vice versa?

Loads are fairly predictable. Full flights on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays due to the fact that they help feed the cruise lines and also for obvious weekend reasons. Midweek is generally fairly open. Also, March-May is open, June-August is full, and September-December is open. Then, December-January is full for the holidays. However, this year, October is completely full. I talked with TN and even they don't know why it's so full.

As far as load factors, their weekend flights are in the 80-90% range, with midweek being 50-70%.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10552 times:

Air NZ did have significant ETOPS problems, with the PPT-LAX flight having to route far, far westwards towards Hawaii.

That is why Air Tahiti Nui operates the 343 while Air Calin of New Caledonia can get away with the 330.

Incidentally, I would argue that one of the midweek PPT-LAX flights should then fly LAX-NOU-LAX, because loads would be much, much higher.

I would also argue - and often do - that Air Tahiti Nui, Air New Zealand and Air Pacific should hub their failing (and failed, respectively) services to/from Japan and China in the western Pacific - probably at Nadi - to optimise load factors on the widebody and so that narrowbody connections to NOU, PPT, AKL and CHC can be run from the hub with less red ink.

At the moment, we have several neighbouring carriers duplicating the same losses on Asian routes which they are bullied by their governments into flying for fear of losing tourism from those countries.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7334 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10493 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 10):
Air NZ did have significant ETOPS problems, with the PPT-LAX flight having to route far, far westwards towards Hawaii.

..... by the time the 350 gets into service ETOPS will be in the distant memory.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10477 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 11):
.... by the time the 350 gets into service ETOPS will be in the distant memory.

No it won't. It'll be replaced, in Australia/NZ by EDTO which will still require extra rules, even more stringent(some) than ETOPS. There will still be diversion time problems, depending on your level of approval.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7334 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10348 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 12):
in Australia/NZ by EDTO which will still require extra rules, even more stringent(some) than ETOPS. There will still be diversion time problems, depending on your level of approval.

The level of EDTO will be more stringent for all aircraft not just twins. It's looking increasingly likely anything around the 777/787 size will have a diversion range far greater than currently possible on etops, so that flights like South America-Australia direct will be feasible with twins... so that something like AKL-GRU with an 307minute diversion time will be comfortably under the new EDTO rules..


User currently offlineNZdsgnr From New Zealand, joined Jul 2008, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10224 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
It is not Air Tahiti Nui's job to make a profit.

Originally it wasn't their job to make a profit but they are feeling the pressure to do so as the local government is finding harder and harder to pay bills and not just for TN. The government can barely afford the pay for their employees salaries, most if not all of which are frozen. The french government is not handing out money the way they use to.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9790 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):

The level of EDTO will be more stringent for all aircraft not just twins

No disagreement

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):
. It's looking increasingly likely anything around the 777/787 size will have a diversion range far greater than currently possible on etops, so that flights like South America-Australia direct will be feasible with twins

Provided the aircraft is designed with ALL the relevant systems or they can be retro-fitted. I'm thinking specifically of the fire suppression requirements but there are others. Is the B787 such a design? I've asked this before but have never had an answer.

Even if all this comes to pas there are still the requirement, in Australia at least, for operations below 60 degrees South, which are simply impossible to meet for any reasonable economic cost.

Even so, EDTO is a replacement for ETOPS, not a dismantling of it, which you implied in reply 11.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4053 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9397 times:

Is there any other aircraft that would be more effecient for Air Tahiti Nui and that they could have gotten today ?


I flew with Air Tahiti Nui in August this year and I'm happy to say that the flight was full


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 640 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
Does anyone know how old these birds are? Also, has there been any credible news on fleet renewal for this niche carrier? I imagine they might go for some new twins like the B787 or A350.

The true question is "why ATN is still existing?".
This airline is a joke, and probably one of the biggest waste of money in the airline industry ever.
They do exist for obvious political reasons, and AF is also "forced" to hire people from Polynesia as f/a on the LAX/PPT route.
From a personal point of view, this company shouldn't exist at all !
As a side note, I don't know for any twins on ATN colours, but for info, since AF operates a B772ER (ETOPS 180' for AF) on the LAX/PPT route instead of a A343, they can't go as direct as before.



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26016 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8310 times:

Quoting akizidy214 (Reply 3):
What do their load factors look like from LAX-PPT & vice versa?

2009 LF was 80.6% , year to date average is 81.9% on reduced capacity.

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
It is not Air Tahiti Nui's job to make a profit.

Interesting as this was never stated in the prospectus or business plan for the airline, and still is not what is being said when the hat keeps is being passed around in recent times for recapitalization. Even other publicly held companies with ownership in ATN such as Air Tahiti make to no mention of such thinking in their annual reports, instead they are quite disappointed as their stakes go down the tubes and effect their own balance sheets.

No, the idea to form ATN was simply a rosy thinking ego exercise by local politicos backed up by some sweet heart deals from mainland France that has gone wrong.

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
The airline exists as a national insurance policy, to ensure that the tourism industry does not collapse if a foreign (or even fellow-French) carrier with a significant market share decides to exit the Tahiti market, either due to low loads or problems elsewhere within its network.

Ironic, as the arrival of ATN has seen tourism decline as virtually every foreign airline has been run off the islands.
Gone is Qantas, Air NZ US service, AOM, Corsair and today long haul service has been monopolized by ATN to the detriment of the islands tourism. Folks like hotels are now hostage to what might or might not happen with the sick airline.

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
As such, we need to understand that the role which TN does undertake at times like now is really as a promotional arm, to showcase superior service standards to what the bulk of its passengers are used to in North America, France and Japan.

Yes a show case for an island that continues to ever larger declines in arrivals. For the first 6mos of 2010 international arrivals are down 8% on top of 15.7% decline in 2009, and 7.8% decline in 2008.

The single airline policy is hurting the islands, and as someone once recommended they should instead foster an open-skies anyone can come policy, but this could likely collapse ATN for good. Instead they are collapsing the island prop up ATN.

Oh it also does not help ATN keeps going through leaders at a fast pace. Its last CEO resigned in July

Quoting koruman (Reply 10):
should then fly LAX-NOU-LAX, because loads would be much, much higher.

How many American's do you think fly to New Caledonia, or even know where it is? Corsair tried a NOU link via LA twice with disastrous bookings (talking about like ~15 people). For a link to France there is service already the other way around on SB/AF.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):

  
With the mafia of Gaston Flosse and Jacques Chirac out of power, one would think some rationality would have sunk in.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineakizidy214 From Jamaica, joined Sep 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8247 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 9):
As far as load factors, their weekend flights are in the 80-90% range, with midweek being 50-70%.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
2009 LF was 80.6% , year to date average is 81.9% on reduced capacity.

Thanks for the info... guys. Looks as if the suffer the same fate as JM A340's... Operating cost are just too high.... Probably would have been better off with some second hand 744 or new A330's.



DCA
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10804 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8235 times:

For an airline located in the middle of the largest Ocean 4 engines 4 longhaul isnt the worst policy.
To shutdown one of two engines over the middlle of the Pacific isnt something to be desired, three engines left would surely give a much more comfortable feeling in such (not too rare) case.

That said I dont see why the airline should think about new planes for at least the next 5-7 years. Their fleet is young.


User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2397 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7901 times:

What is their current schedule?

User currently offlineNZdsgnr From New Zealand, joined Jul 2008, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7650 times:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):
The true question is "why ATN is still existing?".

they have close to 830 employees (and only have 5 plane!) now how will any of the local government look by closing down the airline and have their unemployment figures sky rocket?

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 21):
What is their current schedule?

they have some of the best planned schedules! if you are looking at flying PPT-LAX on a saturday, you have 2 flights: TN8 at 23.30 and then you have TN102 at 23.55!!!


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6807 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7611 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 5):
It is not Air Tahiti Nui's job to make a profit.

The airline exists as a national insurance policy, to ensure that the tourism industry does not collapse if a foreign (or even fellow-French) carrier with a significant market share decides to exit the Tahiti market, either due to low loads or problems elsewhere within its network.

No, it's an exercise in political ego disguised as a support for the local tourism industry. The most prudent (and cost-effective) way to get reliable, appropriately-priced air service to PPT would have been to engage in long-term contracts for subsidized flying with the major carriers already serving Tahiti, thus being able to tap their networks to bring passengers to Tahiti via various mainland gateways/hubs.

But a national airline with pretty A340's seems glamorous and airline jobs are great rewards to be able to hand out to friends/family/supporters, so there you have ATN.


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 640 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

Quoting NZdsgnr (Reply 22):
they have close to 830 employees (and only have 5 plane!) now how will any of the local government look by closing down the airline and have their unemployment figures sky rocket?

Yep, the figures speak for itselves... You obviously got a point.
Anyway the problem comes from when France had an interest to keep the "locals" calm and quiet.. So we could run nuclear tests and so on...
Tahiti is a strategic position in the middle of the Pacific for France, nothing more.
As such, I assume that ATN is, among other things, the "price to pay".
But with national debts raising to unreached heights in France, I don't know about that kind of "political investments"...
Cheers.



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
25 kiwiandrew : Is anyone from NZ able to verify whether this was the case ? From the Great Circle Mapper tool ( which I know is not necessarily an accurate reflecti
26 Viscount724 : HA still operates HNL-PPT once a week with 763. Not sure what type of traffic that route is aimed at.
27 eta unknown : LAX-NOU-LAX... huh????... that's just stupid... there is no market. AOM also tried it: NOU-LAX-ORY. I predict if TN goes under, you'll see Air Austral
28 koruman : I am not defending how and why TN is operated, I am just explaining the rationale. Which is actually pretty respectable. Absolutely, I couldn't agree
29 Reggaebird : Wow!!! I didn't realize that there were so many political and socio-economic ties to this airline!!!
30 Reggaebird : Any reports of the service quality and amenities on these birds? For example, are PTVs installed? Do they have Business and First Class cabins?
31 akizidy214 : I believe AAdvantage miles are able to be earned.
32 LAXintl : No earning, only redemption. Same with DL Skymiles. A definite handicap for US travellers.
33 koruman : Bora Bora is a luxury destination, often visited by passengers flying to French Polynesia in Business or First Class. And yet they are supposed to dr
34 aerorobnz : Identical between all aircraft. PTVs etc and 3 class...
35 sccutler : My family and I flew TN to PPT, plane was packed to the gills (there was even a revenue passenger sitting on an aft jump-seat, I kid you not. She look
36 Kaiarahi : Since you're on the web, maybe you could start by making the effort to look at their website.
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