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A380: Better Punctuality With LH Vs AF?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11442 times:

Interesting article in French:

http://www.lepoint.fr/economie/pourq...r-france-01-10-2010-1243899_28.php

It roughly says that LH A380s have better punctuality than AF A380s because LH planes are A380 "Second Wave"


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30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB6A322 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11137 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
LH planes are A380 "Second Wave"

Either that or LH just runs the planes ontime.

Now before we get any gross misinterpretations of my statement - that is not to criticize the on time performance/punctuality of either airline. However, Lufthansa really prides itself on its punctuality...it would be no different than comparing overall fleet punctuality.



The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15841 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
It roughly says that LH A380s have better punctuality than AF A380s because LH planes are A380 "Second Wave"

The controllers' strike in France didn't help.

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 1):
Lufthansa really prides itself on its punctuality...it would be no different than comparing overall fleet punctuality.

I suspect that is the case.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10936 times:

I think they are refering to this article:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...echnical-dispatch-reliability.html

In this article an LH official mentioned:

Quote:
"So far we've been fortunate, we've only had two delays but they were within 15 minutes," says Raineri. He adds that the 100% reliability record is due largely to the fact that Lufthansa's A380s are 'Wave 2' models, which have a "higher modification level" than earlier models.

but he was not comparing LH with AF but most probably with SQ, EK and QF.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
It roughly says that LH A380s have better punctuality than AF A380s because LH planes are A380 "Second Wave"

AF doesn't have Wave 1 airframes. They have Wave 2 airframes as well.


User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10427 times:

probably due to the fact that lh has everything planed to the minute once the A380 is on the ground.
e.g. the crew haw exactly 12 minutes from getting on board till the first PAX gets there.
and the whole turnaround time is the same as it would be for a 747.


User currently offlineirregking From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9720 times:

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 5):
probably due to the fact that lh has everything planed to the minute once the A380 is on the ground.
e.g. the crew haw exactly 12 minutes from getting on board till the first PAX gets there.


Wait.. WHAT??? 12 minutes? I think you are mistaking... are you talking about the cabin and flight crew?

Cause at LH normally both cabin and cockpit crew board the aircraft together
and on the A380 that is scheduled with a max. of 60mins (where possible) and
a min. of 45mins before giving the "ok to board" for passengers.

That's the rule at least for FRA, while it can vary at PEK, NRT and JNB depending
on when the aircraft gets in but even then we're almost always at the airport
BEFORE the whale actually arrives and we board during the final stages of cleaning.

Do you know how many safety and catering checks have to be done before the
passengers board? Especially on an aircraft as big as the 380?
I can tell you we are BUSY before we let our guests on board...
12 mins is impossible!

And regarding the thread: At LH our cockpit crew and pursers are drilled by
management NOT to be a reason for a 380 flight delay and to keep their teams under
total time-control at all times.
Not necessarily because "the A380 HAS to be punctual" but as sydaircargo pointed
out correctly: everything is planned to the minute around the A380's operation since it
IS Lufthansa's new baby.
Same thing happened when the 340-600's arrived back in 2003.

Everything is new and people need to get used to turning-around and preparing
a new aircraft... that's why strict time-schedules and procedures have been put into
operation... boarding, fueling, loading, catering, everything has been tested numerous
times and LH usually has employees which are responsible enough to ensure that these
tests were worth the time by doing everything by the book.
(Apart from the unnecessity for the trouble you can get into if you mess up any kind
of process in the company)

So yes, apart from LH and its employees doing everything possible to keep all flights
on time, an extra pair of eyes are kept on the punctuality of the A380 simply because
it is NEW to us and it is HUGE... and therefore requires a lot more time and processes
than a 747 or a 340.

I can't speak for AF however I am sure that they also have strict time-schedules in place
around the A380 and special procedures to ensure that all employees learn how to keep
a bird as big as the A380 on-time, just as they hold the knowledge on how to keep any
other aircraft on time.



Worked on: A300,310,319,320,321,332,333,342,343,346,380,B732/3/4/5,744,DC10 -- Currently working on: A380 only
User currently offlineFlightlover From Moldova, joined Mar 2004, 344 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9668 times:

Can anyone advise what are the future planned routes for LH's Airbus 380 fleet? Is there any service planned for South-East Asia or North America?

User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9653 times:

Quoting irregking (Reply 8):
Wait.. WHAT??? 12 minutes? I think you are mistaking... are you talking about the cabin and flight crew?

might be just cabin, we have been told so on a visit to the A380 by LH. and at least that day it was very close
to boarding.


User currently offlineirregking From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9548 times:

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 10):
Quoting irregking (Reply 8):
Wait.. WHAT??? 12 minutes? I think you are mistaking... are you talking about the cabin and flight crew?

might be just cabin, we have been told so on a visit to the A380 by LH. and at least that day it was very close
to boarding.

Sorry but you are mistaking... there is not a shot in hell that 12 mins
are either standard for the crew to arrive before boarding, nor is it possible
for the crew to conclude all safety and catering checks within 12 mins before boarding.
You must have misunderstood.



Worked on: A300,310,319,320,321,332,333,342,343,346,380,B732/3/4/5,744,DC10 -- Currently working on: A380 only
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9024 times:

This difference in on-time performance might also be a cultural thing. The laid back French vs the uber efficient Germans.

I wonder if Air France's A380 F-**JA got a gremlin? Didn't it play up in JFK on its first outing and I was delayed on it by 2 hours out of CDG.


User currently offlineGlobeex From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9002 times:

Hm, I do have a question here.
Lufthansa did many many flights with the A380 BEFORE they actually got their first bird.
I woudl asume that Lufthansa didn't do the flighst to JFK etc. just for fun, but to gain values with which they could plan their future operation. Which means, they had far more than a year to make checklist and plan everything ensuring that EVERYTHING runs smoothly as soon as they get their first plane.....
No my question: Did AF or any other airline do something similar to the extend LH did this?

GlobeEx



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8863 times:

Quoting Flightlover (Reply 9):
Can anyone advise what are the future planned routes for LH's Airbus 380 fleet? Is there any service planned for South-East Asia or North America?

LH has not confirmed any new routes with the A380 besides Jo'Burg, Tokyo and Beijing on which the first 5 A380s are being deployed. This doesn't allow maximum efficient use of the aircraft, but it also allows the airline and bases to adjust to the new aircraft (service, turnaround, crew training,...). With 15 aircraft on order and another 10 on option (which LH will surely eventually exercise) I believe that most presently B744 served routes will be upgraded to A380 service.

Presently the LH B744 strong fleet of 30 are deployed on the following routes (list includes cities already upgraded to A380 service):
New York, Newark, Chicago, Washington, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Houston,
Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires,
Dubai, Johannesburg,
Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore,
Singapore (and Jakarta), Bangkok (along with Kuala Lumpur and Ho Chi Minh City),

I believe most these cities will receive the A380 service as the 15 aircraft enter service and the 10 options are exercised and delivered. The only cities that may receive the B748 instead of the A380 may be Singapore and Bangkok as LH may chose to increase capacity on these routes by removing the tag-ons of Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur and Ho Chi Minh City. Bangkok may also receive an increase in capacity with flights out of Munich.

Mexico City may also be a candidate for the B748 rather than the A380 as new flights from Munich become a viable option to increasing capacity on this route as well. Keep in mind that the 20 B748s on order will not only replace the existing B744 fleet but it will also be used to upgrade A346 services out of Frankfurt allowing these A346s to be repositionned in Munich to increase capacity and open new routes out of MUC.

Buenos Aires just recently (in recent years that is) received its own dedicated B744 service (previously it used to operate via Sao Paulo) therefore any increase in service to EZE will probably be first by increasing frequencies to daily, then upgrading the aircraft to B748 and not A380.

... This is making me want to start another thread about how a future LH network will look like once all 25 A380s and 20 B748s are delivered.... hmmmm..... Maybe another day! : )

Cheers


User currently offlineFlightlover From Moldova, joined Mar 2004, 344 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8381 times:

Qazar,

Very insightful. Thanks very much.


User currently offlinejavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 41
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8269 times:

Quoting irregking (Reply 8):
a min. of 45mins before giving the "ok to board" for passengers

Let me get this straight: are you saying LH crews are onboard and have 45 min. for preflight checks before giving the ok to board? Is that for every plane? Or just for long haul? How long before departure have the crew have to be at the airport then?

Thanks,

j



"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8202 times:

Another interesting fact is the listed logged hours and flying time. AF had flown 1606 flights totalling 8913 hours where LH had 600 flights and 2200 hours. That gives respective sectors of 5h30mins and 3h40mins. It seems like really short sectors on LH; did they do that many intra-Germany proving runs?

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

AF started its A380 operations in the middle of the Winter (Nov 2009), operated a single aircraft during almost 3 months (the second was delivered end of Feb.) to one of the most congested airport in the world : JFK ...

Add to these facts that, as mentioned in the this article, AF had to face several technical problems with F-HPJA (just like EK, SQ & QF) and that LH took benefits of all the improvement from Airbus before taking delivery of its first aircraft in the begining of the summer.

All the rest is just the usual bullsh*t bla bla bla ....


User currently offlineirregking From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6766 times:

Quoting javibi (Reply 16):

Let me get this straight: are you saying LH crews are onboard and have 45 min. for preflight checks before giving the ok to board? Is that for every plane? Or just for long haul? How long before departure have the crew have to be at the airport then?

Thanks,

No no... it absolutely depends on the sector and the operating A/C and sometimes
also on the crew rotation and the captain or the purser.
LH-Crews have check-in times, which define how long before a flight they have to be
at the airport... normally 1.5 - 2 hrs before departure, giving enough time for briefing,
transfer to the A/C, pre-flight checks and boarding.
Pre-flight checks usually take 20mins for medium- and 30mins for long-haul A/C
before passengers are allowed to board.
But for the A380 it's 60mins best case, 45mins worst case ... simply because it
is such a huge aircraft and checking everything can take it's time.




Quoting Globeex (Reply 13):
Did AF or any other airline do something similar to the extend LH did this?

I don't think they did.. or at least they didn't make so much noise and PR around it...
but I can confirm that the effort LH put into rigorously testing everything around the
A380 really paid off!
There were hundreds of ground-operational tests and multiple LH-testflights with the
Airbus prototypes... remember when Airbus did their around-the-world-tests-flights?
The cabin crew were almost always staffed by LH with LH catering.
So yes, I am almost convinced that LH had an advantage with regards to
time-management and procedure-implementation... they knew a lot about the big boy
before he actually joined the fleet.

I can't talk for AF cause I don't work there but I have the gut-feeling that they
pretty much waited until the 380 was parked in front of their door   
hehehehe



Worked on: A300,310,319,320,321,332,333,342,343,346,380,B732/3/4/5,744,DC10 -- Currently working on: A380 only
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6366 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Add to these facts that, as mentioned in the this article, AF had to face several technical problems with F-HPJA (just like EK, SQ & QF) and that LH took benefits of all the improvement from Airbus before taking delivery of its first aircraft in the begining of the summer.

Is HPJA OK now? Are all the problems fixed or is it still often delayed?



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineLHPII From Croatia, joined May 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 7):

current LH A380 AIM (aircraft implementation manual) states that the crew is on a/c exactly 1 hour prior to departure, cockpit crew has to declare aircraft inop up to 45min. prior to departure, if necessary.
The boarding commences 40min. prior to departure and the first guests are on board 38min. prior to departure,
12 minutes prior to departure is the end of boarding and last pax are seated 5min. prior to departure when doors are closed and a/c is ready for pushback. These are reference models!

Quoting Qazar (Reply 11):
Presently the LH B744 strong fleet of 30 are deployed on the following routes (list includes cities already upgraded to A380 service):
New York, Newark, Chicago, Washington, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Houston,
Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires,
Dubai, Johannesburg,
Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore,
Singapore (and Jakarta), Bangkok (along with Kuala Lumpur and Ho Chi Minh City),

......you forgot TLV here!  


User currently offlinejavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 41
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Quoting irregking (Reply 16):
it absolutely depends

Thanks for the clarification  

j



"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1473 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 7):
might be just cabin

No way, no how. If anything, the preparations cabin crew has to do takes a lot longer than the cockpit. You see, the cockpit crew are blessed with all kind of self-diagnostics, and if a message pops up on the screen saying something like "left upper fluxcapictor inop" they'll check the MEL and see if they can dispatch without if. If not, they'll get on the horn and call a spanner to fix things.

Not so for cabin crew; they not only have to check all safety equipment is present and in working order, they've also got the far more time consuming task of checking catering, tax-free, cleaning, seat functionality and IFE.

12 minutes cabin prep time for an A380 is impossible; prepping the cabin of a 50 seat babyjet will take longer than that.

As for LH and on-time performance on the A380. There is probably not any airline out there who has invested as much time and money in that machine as LH and, probably more important, LH Technik has. They know the kite inside out, having sent LHT staff to the FAL when Airbus was short of manpower. They've been exceedingly Germanic about the introduction of the aircraft, and consequently have had very few surprises thrown at them. Being anal to the nth degree about things can be a pain, but in some cases does it ever pay off!

Just one of the reasons LH are where they are today - they've never been afraid of making upfront investments that beancounters might baulk at, but, in the long run it pays off. LH is an airline taking the long view, sadly an exceedingly rare thing in todays environment, ruled as it often is by the next quarterly.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5306 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 17):
Is HPJA OK now? Are all the problems fixed or is it still often delayed?

F-HPJA is OK now. It was retired from service for a week or two after the delivery of F-HPJC so that all the problems could be fixed by Airbus and AFMaintenance.

Concerning the maintenance of the A380, remember that AF & LH created a joint venture called SPAIRLINERS for the maintnance of their A380. SPAIRLINES provides also maintenance services for QF :

http://www.lufthansa-technik.com/app...nfo/Group-Basics/Spairliners_e.xml


User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Quoting Flightlover (Reply 6):
Can anyone advise what are the future planned routes for LH's Airbus 380 fleet? Is there any service planned for South-East Asia or North America?

Although LH has not made any announcements, I believe the next destination announced - for service to start with next summer's schedule - would be a toss between:

- JFK
- ORD
- HKG


User currently offlineVal747 From France, joined Aug 2009, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 3):
AF doesn't have Wave 1 airframes. They have Wave 2 airframes as well.

Not true, AF's next A380 will be Wave 2, not the ones currently in the fleet.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4701 times:

So MSN 033, 040, 043 and 049 would be Wave 1? This is in contradiction to all I heard before (maybe except for MSN 033, it could be kind of an exception as the structure was built much earlier).

Someone from XFW explained me once that MSN 021 was one of the last wave 1- A 380 delivered. MSN 023 and 025 (even though with a lower number than 026) were already wave-2-airframes.

Maybe there are even differenced within the wave-2-airframes (e.g. early wave-2-airframes).


25 Burkhard : Punctuality is one of the typical German virtues, so I'm just sure that the focus on it is very high at every level. Passengers expect it from LH, and
26 YULWinterSkies : And another one of the most congested at the other end... CDG. Also, during that period, there were increased security checks for US-bound flights, m
27 Burkhard : Winter 2009/10 and spring 2010 we remember as the worst times for aviation ever in Europe. Eternal winter and then Eejafjalla. How to calculate that o
28 Post contains images FlySSC : You've got the most important point here and probably the most interesting of this treat.
29 Post contains links FlySSC : Here is an interesting article published by the french newspaper "J.D.D" in July 2010 (in french only) : http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Actualit...etard-
30 kmz : it would be interesting to see a statistic of A380 punctuality where the reasons for delay are clearly identified (strike, technical problems,msn,airl
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