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EK To Order Another 30 A380s  
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2919 posts, RR: 24
Posted (3 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 26320 times:

http://blog.cheapoair.com/news/dubai...-to-purchase-120-airbus-a380s.aspx

http://www.forexlive.com/138688/all/...ates-wants-to-buy-120-super-jumbos

It seems EK is just upsizing it's McA380 meal to a total of 120.


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 961 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 25814 times:

I highly doubt it currently, it is again him , Tim Clark is making a new show with the international media to purpose he only knows.

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12321 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 25571 times:

Ah, why stop at only 90; I was going to drop down to TLS this weekend and pick up a few, maybe some mussels and one of those new Peugeots.

Joking apart, why doesn't he order the -900?

If European carriers are complaining now, can you think how they'll be complaining if EK orders another 30 A380s!


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21414 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 23047 times:

Again, it's not good business practice to order aircraft this far out, then options would suffice. It's all for show, but this is going to backfire when governments around the world restrict EK growth to their cities.

My guess is that Clark is putting out the desire to own 120 in response to the US and EU airlines trying to limit ex-im (and EU equivalent) financing to rich nations. EK is saying "but look how much money we plan on spending in the EU on A380s and how much we might spend on the new 777. Don't cut us off..."



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCFBFrame From United States of America, joined May 2009, 531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 22702 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
"but look how much money we plan on spending in the EU on A380s and how much we might spend on the new 777. Don't cut us off..."

"And, once we get all those frames there will be no airline competition from anywhere. I, Tim Clark, will rule the world with low cost money from the developed world!!! Because the developed world is so greedy they will continue to help me despite knowing better."


User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 22547 times:

I'm still not sure it's wise to be ordering so many A380s when the economy in the US and around the world still isn't that strong. Yes, he has the money but having it and using it wisely isn't the same thing. Suppose the market doesn't develop the way he thinks it will. Then you have a glut of excess A380s needing a home and no or very few airlines to sell them too. Optimism is nice but it needs to be controlled too.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 21912 times:

I hope Airbus can increase their A380-production quickly, because otherwise EK will block most of the possible new orders from other airlines. ( i know i said this already in this forum here...)

Ordering 30 a year is nearly the complete possible production...


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 21801 times:

The announcement I am waiting for is that Emirates is increasing the pace of A380 deliveries.

Emirates can order 500 A380s, but that means nothing if they keep on taking 6 or 8 in every year.

120 orders? They should be taking at least two a month.


User currently offlinelucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 21293 times:

Things like this are possible when you receive state subsidies and are all too cozy with Dubai's airport authority as well as its aviation authority, both of which are also wholly state-owned entities that share the same government owner with the airline.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12406 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 21075 times:
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I find the news EK is working with Boeing an a 777NG interesting... they are a natural customer (wider internal cabin and more range). I'm sure they would love a longer range 77W for the Americas. Now for a stretch too...   

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 1):
I highly doubt it currently, it is again him , Tim Clark is making a new show with the international media to purpose he only knows.

I wonder if this is for press attention...

Lucky777,
We've had that discussion before. The government of Dubai isn't rich enough to subsidize EK. More like EK subsidizes the city. They are cozy with the airport authority, but no more than LH at FRA. The dominant carrier is either 'cozy' or at odds with the airport operator. There is rarely any middle ground.

Anyone can fly to DXB. e.g., a while back VS noted they would do a 2nd daily if they had the LHR slots. That is the main issue, the 'natural competition' to EK is being constrained from growth. I've posed quite a few times that the enabler for EK was a lack of expansion at European hubs. When those hubs couldn't fly to growing secondary destinations, EK stepped in and then filled planes to the main destinations in Europe.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinewingman From St. Vincent and the Grenadines, joined May 1999, 2099 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 20700 times:

I'm eager to see what Boeing's plan is as well for the 777NG. From what I've read on this forum it seems as if they are waiting to see what performance guarantees Airbus is willing to commit to on the 350-1000. And I'm sure Airbus is being cagey as hell to make Boeing second guess itself. In my mind the BA/IB and KLM/AF campaigns will see the first real competitions between between these two as yet to be fully defined competitors. And I'm sure Clark will have his say since he's bound to order upwards of three times what BA+IB+KLM+AF will order in combination (150 to 50 or thereabouts). One thing I've said many times before and which I'll say again...one of those two European airline companies will be bankrupt by 2020 if EK does in fact take and fill 120 A380s+150 777NGs+150 A350s. And the other will be hanging by a thread.

User currently offlineSkyPriorityDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 20138 times:

Is it just me, or does Emirates need to take a reality check?    They are far from being a global carrier yet they assume they need 120 A380's? If they believe this will make them a global carrier, they better think again. Most airports can't handle and aren't willing to handle an A380. Best of all, I would like to hear their justification as to how they will fill all of those empty seats. I guess if I were to look on the bright side, this would be an Emirates non-rev's dream when it comes to being able to catch a flight.  


Keep Climbing...
User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 19913 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 10):
I hope Airbus can increase their A380-production quickly, because otherwise EK will block most of the possible new orders from other airlines. ( i know i said this already in this forum here...)

Ordering 30 a year is nearly the complete possible production...

I wonder if that could possibly have any impact on 747-8i orders?

One can always hope...   



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 19677 times:

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
Is it just me, or does Emirates need to take a reality check?

It's you! (But you aren't alone).

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
They are far from being a global carrier yet

They are??? Then what is your definition of a global carrier??? They serve about 80% of the planet (on a longitude basis) AKL to DXB to LAX, more than any other carrier, at the moment, except for NZ. Makes them pretty gobal to me.


Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
Most airports can't handle and aren't willing to handle an A380

Source? Most airports than can handle a B747 CAN handle an A380 and in most case any modifications are pretty small. In another thread it was reported than over 70 airports are A380 ready.

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
I would like to hear their justification as to how they will fill all of those empty seats.

20% pa pax growth for the next 5 years. Not an unreasonable planning horizon. The number might be a bit big, but that's what they foresee. At that rate it doesn't take long for all the B77Ws to grow to A380 size loads and the A332s to grow to B77W size loads and guess what has EK got on order? 90 A380s and 100(?) odd B77Ws. Weather you agree or not EK seems to be planning for just such growth.

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
this would be an Emirates non-rev's dream when it comes to being able to catch a flight.

I wouldn't count on it.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19093 times:

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
I would like to hear their justification as to how they will fill all of those empty seats

Time and time again Anet members have compiled lists of where they could use them within the next 5 years.

I myself managed to place 27 A380s just doing Dubai to Australia and the UK. Others went better on scheduled all 90+

The fact we can do that in 2010 means that, with 20% passenger growth, 90 is in fact a conservative figure. That is a mind boggling idea I know, but people have *got* to get their head around how EK works and stop bashing them at every opportunity. Just because UA and BA can't fill 90 doesn't mean that EK will have even the slightest difficulty doing so.

When it was announced that they were sending the A380 to MAN the Longon-centric press who see the North as about as significant as Dar Es Salaam had exactly the same question: how the hell will they fill it? Go look up the load factors on the route.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19054 times:

120 is a staggering number of planes! Even more staggering is the value of the order. It's just mind-boggling.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 10):
I hope Airbus can increase their A380-production quickly, because otherwise EK will block most of the possible new orders from other airlines. ( i know i said this already in this forum here...)

It must be extremely depressing for those airlines that were thinking of ordering the A380, but now must see the production line pretty much tied up completely for a very long time. And other A380 sceptical airlines must now be breaking out in a cold-sweat, realising exactly what Emirates is planning to do with all of these planes.

It'll be a bloodbath, and I expect a few airlines won't survive this.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18996 times:

The articles quoted appear to simply repeat what Tim Clark has previously stated - EK will need more A380s.

To suggest that EK will come a cropper when other countries "start" limiting the access misses the point. Those countries already do, either by limiting the number of destinations or the number of flights or a combination of the two. If passenger numbers are increasing and you can not increase the frequency, the only option is to use aircraft with greater seating capacities.

As has been mentioned in other threads, not all the new aircarft are an addition to the fleet size. Some will replace aircraft that are being retired like the old 343, 345 772, 773s which are being phased out over the next few years.

I am not sure what is meant by global carrier. From PER it is easy enough for me to get to much of the globe on EK metal. Most other carriers don't even use their own metal despite selling seats. Some global carriers that sell seats but don't fly to PER include LH, AF-KLM, BA-IB. If I want to book a flight with them I have to go to SIN with SQ or QF first.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6676 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19076 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):

Joking apart, why doesn't he order the -900?

Because it's not for sale. While EK and others may desire it, what motivation does Airbus have to build it? They have a long way to go before the A380 program is in the black, and anyone who wants an A389 has at this time only one option, and that is the A388. I cannot see that building the A389 will gain a single sale that Airbus would not already get, and it will just add 2 or 3 billion to the cost of a program that is already bleeding red ink by the barrel. It makes no business sense whatever.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19028 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
I cannot see that building the A389 will gain a single sale that Airbus would not already get,

CX for sure, maybe others

gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6676 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18989 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 29):
CX for sure, maybe others

If they want a larger plane, and cannot get the A389, they will buy the A388. They are just trying to pressure Airbus into building the A389; Airbus would be foolish to do so.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 18374 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 30):
If they want a larger plane, and cannot get the A389, they will buy the A388

Maybe, maybe not. While I certainly don't know the details it is not beyond possible that absent the A389, some non A388 combination of aircraft types works better for CX, who knows? This is why I think saying they "will" buy the A388 absent the A389 is not really justified.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9834 posts, RR: 96
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 18222 times:
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Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 9):
Suppose the market doesn't develop the way he thinks it will. Then you have a glut of excess A380s needing a home and no or very few airlines to sell them too.

I keep missing the bit where EK cancelled every other order they have except their A380's.
Or is it something else that I'm missing?.....   

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 16):
Most airports can't handle and aren't willing to handle an A380

Up to now, every airport where it matters seems to have been more than happy to invest in handling A380's....

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 30):
If they want a larger plane, and cannot get the A389, they will buy the A388. They are just trying to pressure Airbus into building the A389; Airbus would be foolish to do so.

And yet it's not too hard to imagine circumstances where the economics of an A380-900 might work for a carrier where the economics of an A380-800 might be more marginal, especially when compared to say a 777NG..

Rgds.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 18116 times:

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 32):
but he's coming and he's not going to need A380s to carry out his plan because he will own and control Upset Technology.

I actually agree with you, but Bottom feeder is not going to arrive within 5 years and probably not within 10 years, so it is moot for EKs A380s at this time.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineSkyPriorityDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 18024 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 19):

Okay, I guess I can level with you on a few points you've made. But what one must realize is that they are not nearly the size of Delta, United, Air France/KLM, or Lufthansa. I guess I should have elaborated or rephrased the term "global carrier". Yes, Emirates has a sizable international operation. But that's not what flying is all about. Carriers like the ones listed above operate in niche markets, offering many things Emirates simply cannot (at the moment). While you can fly an A380 to mid-sized and large business markets in the world, you can't fly them to remote islands or other markets where the airport isn't exactly an airline hub. I have also yet to understand why Emirates doesn't feel the need to operate narrow-body aircraft? Can anyone elaborate? Emirates really does offer a great product, if only they would capitalize on it a tad bit more... (yes, I realize this sounds funny considering they operate the A380)



Keep Climbing...
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 17901 times:

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 35):
you can't fly them to remote islands or other markets where the airport isn't exactly an airline hub.

Why not? UU has ordered A380s to do exactly that! And Reunion is a pretty remote island. In due course I expect to see them carrying holiday makers from Australia to NAN, HNL, HKT & DPS at least. (It will be 5 to 15 years, but it will happen)

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 35):
Emirates doesn't feel the need to operate narrow-body aircraft?

Becasue frequency is largely irrelevent on EK routes, it all about connecting into the banks at DXB, so you need to feed as many pax into your hub, at the specified time, as you possibly can, hence the large A380 & B77W orders. EK currently has 2 main banks daily and two sought of proto banks, so really you need to move the maximum number of pax to/from DXB once or twice a day. See HB-IWCs posts on EKs hub structure for more info.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
25 lightsaber : That is an important point to repeat! To others: It is a straw man's argument that airports are not A380 ready. Peak production is expected to grow t
26 ash185 : Well I dont think anything EK does now can surprise anyone considering how everyone gets shocked with each order they place. But their orders for new
27 Chiad : LOL. EK: Launch the A389 or else ... we'll buy 30 more A388. Airbus: Oh please stop pushing us ... we don't have the engineering resources now. EK: W
28 gemuser : What's the problem in SEA? I was there in July 10, didn't see any obvious problems, except maybe the tram tunnels? Gemuser
29 ash185 : LOL so true!!!
30 panais : It might be interesting to consider that EK might buy a European airline and then take advantage of the European regulations to fly everywhere they w
31 behramjee : My theory on this massive EK A 380 order backlog is that they are also purposely ordering more and more A 380s to block up many production + delivery
32 328JET : Exactly my concern!!!
33 AirbusA6 : Perversely, if EK hog the A380 production slots, would the main beneficiary be the 748 programme? One unknown in EK's future, is how the other middle
34 Burkhard : Sure. But if the /potential future ) order would be for 40 B77W instead of 30 A380, it wouldn't be less bloody - and it woulld be the same who bite t
35 328JET : Unlikely, but too early to predict. It seems that EK is blocking the delivery positions of the most important (and available) longrange aircrafts in
36 parapente : Well as far as Europe is concerned.He will order more for these routes if he is given the slots.(Not necessarily primary hubs as we have seen). If the
37 Burkhard : I don't see this blocking. The A380 line can be brought up to 44 aircraft per year - and every airline is free to order the number they want now. Airl
38 ash185 : I dont think they would order the A380 to block rivals from getting them. The deliveries are spread out over time which is one of the reasons why they
39 danfearn77 : They probably dont need to justify. Take MAN, on a regular basis its comes in with over 510 on board (525 capacity). And the Evening flight comes in
40 SEPilot : And you don't think the A388 will be improved? The problem with the economics of the A389 is that it still will require more passengers to make it pr
41 CharlieNoble : It occurs to me that EK's model is a lot like Fedex's... 1. Gather everyone from all over to one spot (Dubai...it helps that it's geographically the c
42 Post contains images EPA001 : I do not think that Astuteman implies that the A388 will not be improved. To what extend remains to be seen in comparison to the A389. And you can al
43 iloveboeing : I would probably think that Airbus doesn't care who orders the A380s or what mix of airlines orders them, as long as they have the orders. Wasn't the
44 ikramerica : Pan Am did this. They introduced tourist class and got permission from governments to offer lower fares. Then on the 747, with all the extra space, t
45 incitatus : It is not like airlines are lining up to buy A380s. They are not. Even Emirates, like I said, is bluffing. Their rate of delivery continues to be med
46 Post contains images KPDX : Impossible! If you don't order the A380, you'll be sorry!!!!
47 art : More like 500, I think. Several years ago the figure of 425 was given by Airbus IIRC. Then with further problems (eg failure to ramp up as anticipate
48 plobax : About 3. - unlike Fedex packages, EK pax sort themselves out !
49 SEPilot : But it is much more likely (to me, anyway) that Airbus will do what improvements they need to keep selling A388's. If there was meaningful competitio
50 incitatus : You missed "2. Sort them out IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT". Yes, very much like FedEx.
51 francoflier : I understand this is your opinion, but I see that it is often taken for a fact on A.net that CX will, without a doubt, buy the A389 if it is launched
52 WarpSpeed : I agree this seems crazy; especially that a CEO would telegraph his business expansion plans to the competition. (what purpose does this serve?) Howe
53 Post contains images mariner : I'd rephrase that to "Perhaps he has a vision for EK that is not quite apparent to some A.Netters." Because this a.netter understands it and is pleas
54 WarpSpeed : Took your suggestion and made some edits. What is it about about Clark's vision that you like?
55 gemuser : Why are 20% pa growth projections unsustainable? It's around what they have achieved over the last 20 years. Gemuser
56 Baroque : Tempting to suggest "a grip on reality" but surely that cannot be true of someone (Clark not Mariner!!!!) who orders so many of that awful plane the
57 Post contains images mariner : Firstly, that he has a vision, and a fairly grand one. The world needs a few visionaries. It was obvious decades ago that Dubai was/could be a crucia
58 Post contains images astuteman : And you don't think a 777Ng/A350/Y3 will be improved? I'm not sure why this absurd strawman keeps getting churned out. Any decision to launch an A389
59 SEPilot : That could be; however as I see it Airbus is going to be scratching for resources for some time to come. The A350 is going to keep them busy for a lo
60 parapente : I thought that Airbus stated that they would not consider any major varient (389) until production had got to a steady "X" aircraft per month.Can't re
61 328JET : I think the total engineering effort for a -900 variant is not as difficult as some here expect. The new TrentXWB will be flight-tested on the A388 s
62 Post contains links Baroque : If QF32 on Monday had been a 389, likely it too would have been full. I think only one out of six flights (12 legs) I have had on the QF A380 has not
63 babybus : EK aren't stupid. They can see the A380 as a passenger sponge on any route. It's a mixture of ultimate passenger comfort in all classes of cabin and t
64 Post contains images astuteman : Ah, on that point I can agree. I don't see an A389 even being considered until a) A380 production has reached steady state, and b) the A350XWB is ent
65 Stitch : A number of folks have argued that Boeing launched the 747-8 Intercontinental solely to make Airbus bleed red ink on every A380-800 sale they win. But
66 tonymctigue : Bigger airplanes for bigger people. That is one of the funniest posts I've ever seen on this forum. You could probably pitch that idea to MoL of FR.
67 Post contains images Stitch : When the A380-800 had her first flight, Jon Stewart covered it on The Daily Show. He noted the plane could seat up to 500 people - or 250 Americans.
68 astuteman : In my view, all the "death" of the 748 Intercontinental would do is accelerate the development of a "real" Y3 773/748 replacement, which would presum
69 WarpSpeed : Possible, but the development of the 737 successor and the 777 upgrades will undoubtedly keep Boeing busy on the drawing boards and financially tied
70 Post contains links mdword1959 : The frequently controversial Richard Aboulafia contends this may not be of primary concern to investors in Airbus in his September newsletter: http:/
71 Stitch : Even if Boeing launched something like keesje's Ecoliner, I cannot see how it could compete against an A380-900 on the long and thick hub-to-hub miss
72 PlanesNTrains : Seems to be what Hamlet69 has referred to as well. I'm excited - particularly if it looks as elegant as what Keesje had shown a concept of previously
73 cpd : Everyone on here talks about the 773NG/777-4 like they are a dead set certainty. Especially in the comparisons between Aircraft A -v- Aircraft B -v-
74 ikramerica : I've been saying this forever. Airbus is a jobs program, plain and simple. As long as it is positive overall at the rate of a municipal bond (and it
75 Coronado : I can see EK dedicating several 380's to South America within the next few years. 400million South Americans with ever higher economic growth rates wi
76 JerseyFlyer : Which would be perfect timing to follow on from the delivery of EK's 90th A388! As I recall EK's first B777Ws were obtained on lease (around 28 of th
77 david_itl : Better tell that to LH then and all other airlines who operate this marque without too many problems regading its "competitiveness". Evidence please.
78 AirNZ : You can say it as often as you want, but you've never shown the slightest 'evidence' to justify it......other than your opinion and which, at the end
79 SEPilot : What matters is if the airline can make money with the airplane. LH and others have clearly been able to make money with the A346. The fact that most
80 Baroque : Not to mention that another item on Ikra's "logic" trail would be major programs to make beer cans out of all the 747-400s less than quietly flying a
81 SA7700 : This thread will be locked as it has veered into an off-topic, rule violating debate; not relevant to the original post. Any posts added after the thr
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