KarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2929 posts, RR: 9 Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5456 times:
Inching closer to the newest aircraft addition to its fleet Southwest has acquired a tentative agreement with the SWAPA. A ratification vote with the full membership will be the next order of business. Some details that would follow are mentioned in the writeup below If the vote is successful.
Courtesy: Southwest Airlines
Southwest Airlines Statement Regarding Tentative Agreement With Pilots Union On The B737-800
justplanenutz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 428 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5276 times:
I continue to wonder if WN is looking to replace the incoming FL 73gs with 738s to jump start their fleet integration. Rather than repaint/reconfigure FL 73gs, why not swing a deal with Boeing to take new 738s just the way you want them and let Boeing move the FL 73gs. Maybe WN takes some idled 717s to close the deal.
WWTRAVELER99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5050 times:
Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 1): Maybe WN takes some idled 717s to close the deal.
Maybe WN takes more maybe not. Either way I do not think it will have any effect on the -800 purchase. I have heard that the -300 reskinning is what will make the deal. WN was promised thing for the reskin. These promises are not holding true. So I expect Boeing to make it up with the -800 deal.
If WN takes more 717's it will be because they want them, maybe to get reid of the -500. Maybe they will be a cheaper and more effecient aircraft to aquire.
junction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 766 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4929 times:
Is it normal practice for an airline to need a pilot union ratification vote just for a new aircraft type?
alexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4918 times:
Without doing some research, most of FL's -700's are very new. That's gotta be sweet for WN.
Wouldn't it make more sense for WN to convert most of it's and FL's remaining -700 orders to the -800?
It seems as if the 717's will be around a while until WN and Boeing come up with a new deal on a 737 replacement or another large order so WN can go back to a all 737 fleet.
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4918 times:
Quoting junction (Reply 3): Is it normal practice for an airline to need a pilot union ratification vote just for a new aircraft type?
You have to negotiate a pay rate on the new frame.
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4848 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 5): Quoting junction (Reply 3):
Is it normal practice for an airline to need a pilot union ratification vote just for a new aircraft type?
You have to negotiate a pay rate on the new frame.
No, not necessarily. As I was told by our CA last night on the shuttle, pay is the same, much like the FA's TA. There were pay raises associated with both contract, but they are tied to company profitability not aircraft type, and also were in exchange for a contract extension of an additional year.
There are other things that have to be negotiated for an airline like WN which relies on an extremely efficient system that's wound pretty tight schedule-wise. You have to look at scheduling of the -800, make sure that ETOPS is addressed (if there' potential for that), ensure that the turn times won't affect line value, and the pilots were concerned that -800's would slow down pilot rates of hire which would in-turn slow down upgrade time for FO's (and apparently that's been addressed in this TA)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6363 posts, RR: 34 Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4681 times:
Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 1): I continue to wonder if WN is looking to replace the incoming FL 73gs with 738s to jump start their fleet integration.
Southwest has its own 737-700's on order which could be switched for 737-800's if desired, so I don't really see the AirTran merger being part of this dynamic (aside from increased traffic flows as a result of the larger network).
Quoting WWTRAVELER99 (Reply 2): If WN takes more 717's it will be because they want them, maybe to get reid of the -500. Maybe they will be a cheaper and more effecient aircraft to aquire.
My gut instinct is that Southwest will try to strike a deal with Boeing to swap the ex-Midwest 717's parked when Mexicana Click shut down for the 737-500's they currently operate. Coincidentally, the ex-Midwest 717 fleet is exactly the same size as Southwest's 737-500 fleet, at 25 aircraft. The average age of the 737-500's in Southwest's fleet will be just over 20 years when the AirTran merger closes, and this might give SWA a cost-effective way to dispose of the 735's while improving the economies of scale of the 717 fleet to be inherited from AirTran.
DAL1044 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4593 times:
Provided they do order the -800's I can see them then converting FL 's remaining new builds to -800's as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already discussed this with Boeing.
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6258 posts, RR: 39 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4561 times:
SW buys enough planes from Boeing that I'm sure they will have no trouble acquiring as many 738's as they want pretty much as quickly as they want. Of all the things in this world to worry about I rate this about on a par with planning a formal funeral for the oak leaves in my yard.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6520 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4529 times:
The 800 is long overdue for WN. Operating costs are very similar all the while maximizing on seating capacity. The whole bit about them not wanting to pay for the extra F/A I think was and old lore that went out the window a very long time ago. They extra $$$ they would make more than makes up for an extra crew member. Plus, the way they schedule a/c, having say 5 738s in the fleet is like having 7 with some airlines. This too, will help keep costs down. Just my 0.02 cents anyway.
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6363 posts, RR: 34 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4494 times:
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10): The whole bit about them not wanting to pay for the extra F/A I think was and old lore that went out the window a very long time ago.
The issue wasn't so much with paying for an additional FA, but rather with how you deal with scheduling the extra FA and dealing with irregular ops; if you have a 737-800 booked with 160 passengers from MDW to LGA, for example, and the plane breaks, replacing it with a 737-700 leaves a bunch of people at the gate in Chicago and potentially a similar number at La Guardia. The smaller 735 is easier to handle if you make sure that your spare is a 733 or 73G.
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2862 times:
As soon as SWAPA approves the 738, how soon could we see a 738 in WN colors?
Is this the last big hurdle for Southwest to introduce the 738 to the fleet?
atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2813 times:
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 12): As soon as SWAPA approves the 738, how soon could we see a 738 in WN colors?
An Order has to be placed by December 1st, WN is hoping for, so that deliveries could begin later in 2011 or 2012, so around that time frame you will see one in WN colors.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2786 times:
Quoting atrude777 (Reply 13): An Order has to be placed by December 1st, WN is hoping for, so that deliveries could begin later in 2011 or 2012, so around that time frame you will see one in WN colors.
That's pretty far out from now. Call me naive, but couldn't they just convert existing delivery slots to 738?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16824 posts, RR: 57 Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2780 times:
How is it that WN maintains such excellent relations with its unions when other airlines have such awful relations?
atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2774 times:
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 14):
That's pretty far out from now. Call me naive, but couldn't they just convert existing delivery slots to 738?
I believe they could, I don't know if WN has stated a reason why they won't, or will, I haven't heard anything regarding whether they'd order new ones, or refer -700s into -800's.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
SXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2009 posts, RR: 19 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2721 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): How is it that WN maintains such excellent relations with its unions when other airlines have such awful relations?
Doc:
We give them many amounts of "luv potion No.9"
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5932 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2666 times:
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 14): That's pretty far out from now. Call me naive, but couldn't they just convert existing delivery slots to 738?
Parts for many planes have an 18-24 month lead time...not sure how far out Spirit in Wichita has to know if it is laying up a 73G fuselage or a 738 fuselage before it's too late Not to mention the wings on the -700 and -800 are totally different, so the right metal has to be cut for the right type. Also, Boeing doesn't just build a plane on a whim. With their factories running at capacity, you don't get a plane built as a customer until your next firm order slot comes up. This also means that if you only have options, you have to firm up an order before you get your place in line.
Personally, I think if WN wants to get their hands on -800s quickly, their best bet is to lease one. There aren't many, but there are a few -800's parked in the desert right now (enough to do a try-n-buy with one of the leasing companies).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
vulindlela744 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 517 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2284 times:
Does anyone know what route(s) the 800's would be used on? Is Hawaii a possibility from OAK, LAX, LAS or PHX? It would be nice to see a 738 in Hawaii in Southwest colors.
QANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1804 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2253 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18): Not to mention the wings on the -700 and -800 are totally different, so the right metal has to be cut for the right type.
Actually, they are the exact same. Same dimension and surface area.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2228 times:
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 20): Actually, they are the exact same. Same dimension and surface area.
On the outside, not on the inside. The 738 wing has additional reinforcement to allow for ~20,000 lbs of additional take-off weight. They are not the exact same.
Quoting vulindlela744 (Reply 19): Does anyone know what route(s) the 800's would be used on?
Likely into LGA, EWR, and other markets where WN would struggle to add frequencies.
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