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SeaPort To DAL...  
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4619 times:

According to this....

http://www.eldoradonews.com/news/loc.../10/14/next-stop-love-field-80.php

SeaPort is planning ELD-DAL service.

Is there enough demand between the two?
Connectivity would be almost a moot point.
Thoughts?


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25390 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

The route is an EAS market, and SeaPort already links El Dorado to MEM twice daily. The DAL link will be 1x daily 6 days per week.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
The route is an EAS market, and SeaPort already links El Dorado to MEM twice daily

If an EAS route is already in place, why is another needed? From MEM, ELD based travelers can get wherever they need to go. If there is enough demand to require three daily flight to two airports, why does it need to be subsidized?



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Sea Port's growth is quite impressive in my mind. Good to see them get a chance to expand. When 19 seat props disappeared for the most part in the 1990s, I was wondering what plane would take up some of these small routes.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 2):
From MEM, ELD based travelers can get wherever they need to go.

...for a price. Despite having family in the north MS area, I always end up flying into BNA because fares into MEM are too damn high. This will allow El Dorado residents to connect onto the WN network.


User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4231 times:

just like they have capured some MEM-MCI traffic i expect the will also pick up MEM-DAL, albeit small enough to stay off DL's radar!

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25390 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

El Dorado & Hot Springs has been EAS since 1997, and this switch to Dallas is in response to community request.

When SeaPort won the first bid in 2009, the community had wanted a Dallas link, but SeaPort application provided for Memphis, basically a copy of Mesaba service proposal.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 4):
...for a price. Despite having family in the north MS area, I always end up flying into BNA because fares into MEM are too damn high. This will allow El Dorado residents to connect onto the WN network.

Why connect to WN at DAL? The purpose of EAS is to provide subsidies to connect small communities to a hub, right? But DAL is Wright Amendment restricted until 2014. It'd make a lot more sense to connect them to WN at HOU, admittedly a longer flight than to DAL, but the extra time would be offset by having many more destinations available without further connections or additional stops out of DAL.

Or why not fly to DFW instead, and offer a second hub (AA) as well as spoke opportunities on many other carriers, including many international destinations.

Also, does this service replace the existing EAS service to MEM? If not, does EAS normally provide subsidies to connect to more than one hub?


User currently onlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5053 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Speaking of SeaPort, how are they doing? Any more growth planed in the Pacific NW?


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

This does not replace the MEM trips. SeaPort will get same amount of $ but adjust what they do at ELD to appease what the ELD floks wanted by adding service to DAL.
Why DAL over DFW? Cost and ease. They are not doing this to promote xferring to WN,I bet. Thety are hoping for people wanting to go to Dallas. Also, I would assume they will use an FBO at DAL, so a shuttle van to WN terminal would be provided?

Also guessing replaceing one MEM trip with DAL run, correct?



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 7):
It'd make a lot more sense to connect them to WN at HOU, admittedly a longer flight than to DAL

I would have thought this as well, but they're probably hoping for quite a bit of local traffic in addition to people who want to connect. Maybe the demand is higher to Dallas than Houston, and also Love is more convenient than DFW. Isn't it all best-guess anyway? Good luck to them, I would love to see more stuff like this work out across the country.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 8):
Speaking of SeaPort, how are they doing? Any more growth planed in the Pacific NW?

They recently tried to get the ATL-AHN EAS service that GeorgiaSkies (Pacific Wings) has, but the DOT went with renewing the EAS deal with GeorgiaSkies on that route instead of bringing in a new carrier. The Athens-Clarke County government endorsed SeaPort, but support the DOT's decision.

http://www.ajc.com/business/athens-air-service-subsidy-669708.html


User currently offlineUSXGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3428 times:

The Arkansas communities have historically always been linked with Dallas & St. Louis. Lone Star flew these routes for years, then Air Midwest took them over, with the service pattern updated to focus on DFW with HRO linked into MCI as well.

I suspect that HOT & ELD boardings will skyrocket once the DAL flights commence.. there is just a lot more natural business in the Dallas region than Memphis.



xx
User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 8):
Speaking of SeaPort, how are they doing? Any more growth planed in the Pacific NW?

I doubt there is more growth planned in the PNW. They just switched their PDX-AST/ONP routes to the Cessna Caravan after finally admitting the PC-12 is way too much airplane. They need a serious increase in ridership on PDX-AST to make it sustainable when the subsidy runs out next year. That route will be the first to go in my opinion and despite PDX-ONP doing okay, my guess is that will get shut down too. I can only see them keeping them if they feel like keeping them propped up with money they get from other EAS routes. But I don't think they're going to be able to make any money on them.

So if they drop down to just PDX-BFI and PDX-PDT, that's a pretty small operation in the PNW.


User currently offlinemacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3141 times:
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Also keep in mind that there is a Fortune 500 oil company, Murphy Oil, that maintains its headquarters in ELD. Being in the oil biz, it probably has more business connections in Dallas than in MEM. Why DAL over DFW? WN and closer to downtown Dallas are probably the reasons.


Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4674 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

This will be good for both ELD and HOT. HRO was able to trade one of their flights into an MCI flight as well which I believe has been well recieved. The only one left is JBR, which I would guess MEM is a real loser since it doesnt even put you in the terminal. Cape Air to JBR makes a lot more sense than Seaport to MEM, though the Arkansas EAS's seems to always be packaged together.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3456 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 4):
This will allow El Dorado residents to connect onto the WN network.
Quoting exFATboy (Reply 7):
Why connect to WN at DAL?

For all pratical purposes it has to be O&D traffic to DAL, because WN doesn't have any interline agreement with anybody and probably doesn't want any.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
For all practical purposes it has to be O&D traffic to DAL, because WN doesn't have any interline agreement with anybody and probably doesn't want any.
Quoting macsog6 (Reply 14):
Also keep in mind that there is a Fortune 500 oil company, Murphy Oil, that maintains its headquarters in ELD. Being in the oil biz, it probably has more business connections in Dallas than in MEM.

Then isn't the use of EAS funds in this way a violation of the EAS program? EAS is intended to provide small communities with access to the national aviation system - that's why EAS grants are supposed to be used to connect small airports to hubs, not local traffic to a specific destination.

And if ELD is a large enough community to have a Fortune 500 company based in it, should it receive EAS subsidy at all?


User currently offlineUSXGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Decatur, IL is home to ADM - a Fortune 50 company, with large operations by Tate & Lyle, Caterpillar, Bachrachs, and Zexel (I believe that's still open)... used to board over 60,000 folks a year, now its barely flying 4 pax a day!    


xx
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6764 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting exFATboy (Reply 17):
And if ELD is a large enough community to have a Fortune 500 company based in it, should it receive EAS subsidy at all?

The counter-argument to this, I suppose, is that the existence of the EAS service may help keep that Fortune 500 company based in El Dorado, rather than moving to Dallas or Houston.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
For all pratical purposes it has to be O&D traffic to DAL, because WN doesn't have any interline agreement with anybody and probably doesn't want any.

It's all O&D as far as the bookings might go, but plenty of people are savvy enough to build their own connections and purchase separate tickets -- they just have to claim bags and re-check them in between flights (if they're checking bags at all). There is a non-trivial number of people who fly WN to and from LAX to connect to various foreign carriers.


User currently onlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6387 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2562 times:

I guess the thing that bugs me about SeaPort is that we have seen before that, apart from the EAS subsidies, scheduled Pilatus PC-12 flying isn't profitable unless you jack up the fares so high that very few people would use the service.

It would be nice if someone would use EAS to start flying a route that might sustain itself if the gov't were to withdraw the subsidies. I don't know if that is possbile in this day and age, though.

I've often wondered if the direct operating cost on a Cessna Caravan is susbstantially lower. Granted, it will get there slower and you can't go above 12,500' for longer than 30 min due to the lack of pressurization...  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinehatbutton From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1500 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
I guess the thing that bugs me about SeaPort is that we have seen before that, apart from the EAS subsidies, scheduled Pilatus PC-12 flying isn't profitable unless you jack up the fares so high that very few people would use the service.

It would be nice if someone would use EAS to start flying a route that might sustain itself if the gov't were to withdraw the subsidies. I don't know if that is possbile in this day and age, though.

I've often wondered if the direct operating cost on a Cessna Caravan is susbstantially lower. Granted, it will get there slower and you can't go above 12,500' for longer than 30 min due to the lack of pressurization...

I agree 100% with this comment. I've been saying for a while that the PC-12 is way too much airplane. A two pilot operation is also way too much for a 9 seater. Cape Air has proven that certain EAS routes may be viable on their own as soon as pax numbers are built up.

A Caravan definitely would have lower direct operating costs...by far. Sure it's slower, but the PC-12 climbs to 25-30k feet to achieve good fuel burn. The time between a Caravan and PC-12 on flights under 45 minutes is pretty much negligible. It's the same debate between the CRJ and the Q400. If the flight is under a certain distance, there really is no difference in block times between the two and one saves substantially more fuel than the other.

Apart from direct operating costs are just the ownership costs. A PC-12 is between $3-4 million. A used Caravan is between $1-2 million. Leasing costs are much more favorable.


User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
For all pratical purposes it has to be O&D traffic to DAL, because WN doesn't have any interline agreement with anybody and probably doesn't want any.

Am I not allowed to buy a ticket to DAL, then another ticket on WN to wherever? Playing with various booking engines, it doesn't seem I'm able to buy a single-ticket to connect to DL at MEM either, so what's the difference?

Many of these 9-seater flights are unsecured anyway, and you haul your suitcase directly to and from the plane, so lack of checked-luggage transfers is a non-issue.

I'm sure there are already people in El Dorado who drive to Dallas for flights, this will just be a convenient alternative. Hell, if I'm by myself and gone for more than a few days, the money I save on parking would cover the cost of the flight to DAL!


User currently offlinetxagkuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quote:
For all pratical purposes it has to be O&D traffic to DAL, because WN doesn't have any interline agreement with anybody and probably doesn't want any.

You are correct that WN generally avoids interline agreements. They have done this since day one.

Originally, it was because they were an intrastate carrier and they were prohibited by law from knowingly transporting any individual whose travel began outside the state of Texas or was to terminate outside the state of Texas.

There have always been folks who have purchased separate tickets, shuffled the baggage, and made interline connections on Southwest. In the early days, when there was only one Res center (DRC) and I worked there summers and holidays while in college.......it was almost like you were delivering a recorded message when someone mentioned they were flying to El Paso so they could go to Ruidoso, New Mexico or they were driving in from Lake Charles, LA to catch a flight to Amarillo or they were coming in on American from London and would be catching a cab from DFW so they could fly to Harlingen.

Quote:
I'm sorry, sir (or ma'am) but federal law prohibits Southwest Airlines from KNOWINGLY offering to sell or accepting for transport a passenger whose journey begins or ends outside of the state of Texas?

Oh, you mean I need to call back and neglect to tell the agent I am driving in from Ardmore?

I'll say it again, we can not KNOWINGLY carry any passenger if we know their journey begins or ends outside the state of Texas

I felt sorry for one guy, on a Saturday afternoon.....we only had 6 or 8 agents on the phones and after delivering the bad news one gentleman called back trying to book after blurting out that he lived in DeRidder, Louisiana (about 2 1/2 hrs from HOU) and he was trying to get to Las Cruces, NM (about 45 mins from ELP). He got me 4 times in a row and I told him I couldn;t pretend that I didn;t recognize his voice. I guess he got luckier on the fifth try and got an agent who did not know about his diabolical plan to circumvent federal law by flying Southwest.

Lots of people fly WN and connect to someone else, and they do it for lots of reasons. I have to go to Williston, ND a bunch. They have code share partners UA and F9 who both offer service from AUS, SAT, and DFW to Denver. I fly WN to Denver, park at terminal C, ordinarily have a carry on suitcase and a laptop so there is no need to hit baggage claim to make the switch. I run over to Terminal A and hop on Great Lakes for the 2 hr 53 min joyride on their Embraer 120 to Williston and hope like mad that they haven't had too many mechanicals and that the weather is not too wretched. Those may be sturdy little planes but they are not a great deal of fun during thunderstorm season on the plains. My last trip up there....about 3 weeks ago.......there were 24 passengers on board from Denver to Chadron, NE to Williston and just chatting with folks sitting nearby there were at least 9 of us who had flown WN to Denver - 2 from Austin, 3 from Houston Hobby, 1 from Love Field, 1 from New Orleans, 1 from Albuquerque, and 1 from Tulsa.

By avoiding interline agreements, WN reduces their exposure to the mistakes of others. It does streamline operations and introduce some efficiencies, but those aren't war stoppers. They have swapped suitcases with some code share partners in the past with no real problems.

Make no mistake. The El Dorado flight might be there primarily for O&D traffic but there will be folks connecting to WN. Small markets like El Dorado typically generate more traffic to the major economic/commercial center in a geographic area unless it is so close that flying isn't worthwhile. The Dallas/Ft Worth area is the largest business and industrial center for the area encompassing Texas/Oklahoma/Louisiana/Arkansas/New Mexico --- even more so than Houston. And if an El Dorado passenger wants to go to Houston.....he can traverse Love Field to a WN flight to Hobby, they leave every half hour or so.

Trans-Texas Airways ( TTa , later Texas International ) for years flew El Dorado to Love Field and did fairly well with it. Perhaps it is time. With EAS money helping to defray what would otherwise have to be outrageous fares on that aircraft it might not do too badly. Before being acquired by Air Midwest, an Arkansas based commuter airline known as Scheduled Skyways used to offer Swearingen Metro service from Fayetteville and Fort Smith directly in to Love Field even after DFW had opened. I was on board one of their airplanes, taxxing in to Love Field (where I was making a connection with WN to go to Harlingen) the day that Delta lost the L1011 over at DFW. We had dodged some nasty looking thunderstorm cells as we made our approach to Love Field and I remember thinking something was up when we were followed in to Love Field by American, United, and Frontier 1 - none of whom ever flew in to Love Field for any reason.

The PC12 might be too much plane but I tend to think that a Cessna Caravan might not be enough plane. Block time for your Caravan on the 236 mile jaunt is liable to be about 1 hr 38 min. The Pilatus will probably do it in 55 mins....worst case, an hour. Wallowing in thermals on a hot, sticky July or August afternoon at 10,000 or 11,000 feet at the outrageous speed of 175 kts isn't quite the same as being able to climb on up to 25,000 ft. I was on a Twin Otter one time from GGG to DFW and we were following Interstate 20 as we flew west.....we had a pretty fierce headwind that day....and I swear there were vehicles on the Interstate which were passing us.


User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3456 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting txagkuwait (Reply 23):
They have swapped suitcases with some code share partners in the past with no real problems.

According to WN's contract with the pilots they can have no codeshares in the CONUS. Maybe in another era but not now.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 22):
Am I not allowed to buy a ticket to DAL, then another ticket on WN to wherever?

Yes you can as long as the flight stops in a Wright Amendment state i.e., DAL-TUL-MDW/LAX-ABQ-DAL



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
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