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New IND Lease Deal Cuts Costs; More WN/DL Flights?  
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Surprised this wasn't mentioned yet: IND has a new 5-year lease deal with all the pax and cargo carriers.

In the new Airline Use Agreement, a key part is that IND's average costs per enplanement will decrease from $10 today to $8.86 in 2015. Already, airlines are expressing interest in mopre flights at IND. WN will add two new flights next year to an unknown destination. But the kicker is that DL is seriously considering new flights and destinations as well, and is already upgrading flights from RJs to mainline. Could we see a return of the PMNW focus city?

Two articles from the Indianpolis Star:
http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...s-fee-lease-deal-gets-rave-reviews
http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...polis-airport-s-value-for-carriers


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Somebody seriously ought to start IND-BNA. WN would be the obvious choice but it would be amusing to see DL beat them to the punch. 3x daily Mesaba CRJ?

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
decrease from $10 today to $8.86

Does $1.14 really make that much a difference?


User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 1):
Does $1.14 really make that much a difference?

Well, if you're boarding 1000 pax a day on average, that means another $416,100 to pay other bills.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlinelv From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 1):
Does $1.14 really make that much a difference?

Given the slim margins in the airline industry, that can be the difference between a profit and a loss.

I'm not sure how they are cutting costs this much to make it work... but I really hope it helps my hometown get more flights.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

Quoting lv (Reply 3):
I'm not sure how they are cutting costs this much to make it work... but I really hope it helps my hometown get more flights.

The Indianapolis Airport Authority's reasoning: Reduce costs, increase flights. And the more pax that use IND (or any airport, for that matter), the more people will spend on dining, shopping, and car rentals... IND (and other airports) gets a cut from the likes of Wendy's and Hertz just like they do from Delta and Southwest. Plus the bugs and kinks from the new terminal have almost all been worked out by now, which gives the IAA an incentive to reduce costs.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 1):
Somebody seriously ought to start IND-BNA.

Why? It's an easy four hour or so drive. It's not quite far enough for the "WN effect."



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinechase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

More details about the new agreement were posted Friday at http://twitter.com/INDairport
I find the 4th bullet point on page 3 the most interesting.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

Isn't $95 sq ft kinda expensive? also, is IND lease terms month-to-month or long term?

Another thing I find interesting is that the airport states "signatory airlines will receive credit from the non-airport revenue, but if there is a shortfall the airlines are expected to make up the difference".. WHAT??



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
It's an easy four hour or so drive. It's not quite far enough for the "WN effect.

You must drive like I do. For normal people it's more like 5. It would be about the same as CVG, which has 3 dailies. Granted, that route used to be all about connections, but with the "hub" where it is now, probably not so much.
Nashville-St Louis is only 20 miles longer, and that sees WN service. Everybody expects BNA-ATL once the FL merger happens, and that's a shorter (albeit more irritating) drive than to Indy.


User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1999 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 8):
For normal people it's more like 5. It would be about the same as CVG, which has 3 dailies. Granted, that route used to be all about connections, but with the "hub" where it is now, probably not so much.

DL dropped IND-CVG.....



Good goes around!
User currently offlineskyrat From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 9):

I'm thinking he means CVG-BNA. At least that's what I got from it.



flown:146,a319,a320,717,722,733,735,738,744,752,763,772,crj2,crj7,crj9,dc9,dc10,e135,e145,e170,e175,frj,md80
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
In the new Airline Use Agreement, a key part is that IND's average costs per enplanement will decrease from $10 today to $8.86 in 2015.

I'm curious how this compares to other airports. I've heard that IND is expensive to operate out of..does this bring IND's costs down to the level of other similar sized airports?


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 11):
does this bring IND's costs down to the level of other similar sized airports?

The IAA stated in one of the Indy Star articles that airports in IND's size and higher across the US have a total cost in the range of $4-$20 per enplaned pax. I wonder what the $20 airport is... ONT? They have a cost problem worse than IND that's driving away carriers.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7):
Isn't $95 sq ft kinda expensive?

Compared to FWA's proposed $40.44/sq ft for FY2011, it is. But keep in mind that IND is in a much bigger metro area and has a larger native catchment area (BMG, HUF, LAF; not to mention leakage from FWA, SBN, and EVV). Also, FWA has property tax levies to fund ops and pay down the old Kitty Hawk facility, while IND doesn't rely on local tax dollars. Because of this, plus the fact that Indy has a mayor that ran on a "no new taxes" pledge (though he's up for reelection this November), IND has to pass costs onto the airlines.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinerampguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Someone mentioned new cities for DL from IND. Any opinions as to what that might be? I certainly would like to see more scheduled 757 service. Be even nice to see a widebody service, but I know that is stretching it a bit.

User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting skyrat (Reply 10):

I'm thinking he means CVG-BNA.

Affirmative. Come to think of it, that route was my first ride on a RJ, back when such things were kind of a novelty.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 8):
Nashville-St Louis is only 20 miles longer, and that sees WN service. Everybody expects BNA-ATL once the FL merger happens, and that's a shorter (albeit more irritating) drive than to Indy.

Yes - but what connecting purpose would going straight south serve?

I don't think IND-BNA is a totally crazy idea, but the combination of less O&D than a route like CMH-BNA (because it's shorter) and fewer sensible connections than IND-STL will make it hard for it to work - if it were a route that made sense for WN, they'd have tried it long ago.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinelambertman From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

The problem with air service at IND is that the competitive dynamic there really prevents anyone from making a major splash. There --really-- isn't a great opportunity for anyone there because each carrier has a piece of the pie that prevents other carriers from expanding. As carriers expand in markets, the fringe markets (like BNA or LIT) come along to support the operation in general.

I suppose San Francisco is a logical addition but its too long for a CR7 and too small for a A319. Seattle falls in the same boat but its even more exaggerated because there is less traffic. Service to Florida markets is adequate so there really isn't any gap there.

On the other hand, what carriers are willing to let IND grow markets (i.e. AirTran growing Milwaukee markets)? Delta has shown tepid interest at best in the market and apparently has more interest in STL than it does IND. WN has always had a presence at IND for years and has never shown any real interest in making IND a key market. FL tried to make IND its MKE (in my opinion), but IND officials fumbled the ball.

In short, I would anticipate little, if any growth. I wouldn't rule out a B6 sighting though as its pretty well known IND officials are slobbering over the thought.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5229 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Here's a link to an official release from the IND Airport website:
http://www.indianapolisairport.com/a...0IAAairlineUseAgreementRelease.pdf

Note a comment in paragraph 7:
The lower projected rates put us in a very favorable position. Equally important, we believe this
agreement demonstrates our door is wide open for continued dialogue with airline executives
about new and expanded air service in Indianapolis, especially to key West Coast markets,
” adds
Marsha Stone, IAA’s chief financial officer.

Some of us here on "the west coast" are kind of excited by some of the implications of this statement...

In a related point of interest, SAN has been mentioned quite a bit lately as a high priority destination by the IND folks. Wouldn't be a bad fit for either DL or WN if you ask me!

  
bb

[Edited 2010-10-17 19:29:40]

User currently offlinemattrockIND From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
In a related point of interest, SAN has been mentioned quite a bit lately as a high priority destination by the IND folks.

So we can get a cheap non-stop flight to heckle Phillip Rivers at Qualcomm...   

Non-stops to the West Coast worked for years from IND before. They can work again. There's lots of foreign investment from East Asia in central Indiana. A stop in SFO between NRT and IND? I must be dreaming.


User currently offlineboilerla From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

I don't know why UA doesn't service DEN mainline from IND. CO services IAH with mainline service, and I'd expect DEN to be able to sustain at least one mainline 757 or A319 a day. SFO also would be a good UA addition, but with their DEN service it's not as necessary.

When I fly UA to IND, I almost always try and book the flight that goes through ORD because I don't really like spending 3 hours on a RJ from DEN to IND. I'm looking forward to seeing if the merger will mean additional choices when flying from LAX and SFO (maybe LAX-IAH-IND as opposed to LAX-DEN-IND).


User currently offlinelv From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
In a related point of interest, SAN has been mentioned quite a bit lately as a high priority destination by the IND folks. Wouldn't be a bad fit for either DL or WN if you ask me!

And both cities have a decent sized presence pharmaceutical/ medical research industries

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
I don't think IND-BNA is a totally crazy idea, but the combination of less O&D than a route like CMH-BNA (because it's shorter) and fewer sensible connections than IND-STL will make it hard for it to work

I was tossing this idea around in my head. When the WN/FL merger was first announced I thought BNA would be the big loser in all of this because why use BNA as a connecting point when you have ATL just down the road. Then I realized there is a finite amount of gate space at ATL and with this move, along with adding markets like CHS, GSP and ECP, WN is going to get a bigger name throughout the southeast... so you can use BNA for connecting traffic while using ATL for higher yielding routes... what does this have to do with IND you ask? Well you could use IND-BNA to connect to JAX, MSY, ECP, CHS, etc. as WN builds it's brand in the southeast.


User currently offlinelv From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 3320 times:

Quoting boilerla (Reply 19):
I don't know why UA doesn't service DEN mainline from IND.

Because those flights are a great way for RP to get it's planes to IND for MX while making a buck on what's basically a ferry flight.


User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 17):
about new and expanded air service in Indianapolis, especially to key West Coast markets,” adds
Marsha Stone, IAA’s chief financial officer.

Well, let's see:

Former NW flights from IND that have since been dropped include:
SFO
SEA
PHX
LAS (is this still operating?)
DEN
DFW
AUS
MCI
STL
PHL
BDL
RDU
RSW
MCO
TPA
FLL

As far as the upgauging of some flights, that was already announced awhile back...namely that anything over 750 miles was going to get at least a CRJ700 because all aircraft of that size and larger have/will have an F cabin. Hence, IND-BOS was upgraded...and although it wasn't as long, IND-LGA got upgraded too (also to compete with FL, who flies 717s). IND-JFK used to be CRJ900s on OH...might that come back?

As far as bringing back some of the old stuff listed above, I would probably say PHL stands a good chance (either of DL coming back or WN putting their metal on the route). Since NW left, US has had this route all to themselves and have started charging appropriately.

SEA would be a great opportunity (at least seasonally) for DL, especially with the focus operation...alternatively, I could see AS coming in on a codeshare as they have shown interest in markets like MSP and STL.

SFO would also be a good choice for DL, though now with the combined UA/CO I don't know if DL would want to risk a flight that would not get much feed at the SFO end...and I think UA has to keep IND all Express for a certain number of years now due to contractual obligations with its rampers in IND (correct me if I'm wrong).

SAN also seems like a great choice, especially as it's one of the top 25 O&D markets from IND that doesn't have nonstop service.

As far as WN, my guess is on PHL as the new destination from IND...as I said earlier, lots of business travelers, and US has had it all to themselves since NW left, so it would make sense...



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 22):
LAS (is this still operating?)

DL dropped IND-LAS earlier this year. It was 3x/week only toward the end.

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 22):
As far as bringing back some of the old stuff listed above, I would probably say PHL stands a good chance (either of DL coming back or WN putting their metal on the route). Since NW left, US has had this route all to themselves and have started charging appropriately

Interesting. So much for the "IND always means cheap fares" and the "US is an LCC" mindset. DL to me is more likely than WN, as WN has pulled back slightly in PHL due to US's price pressure, but who knows

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 22):
RSW
MCO
TPA
FLL

These seem like no-brainer PMNW routes for DL to bring back, as WN is merging with FL, and several of these routes are served by both. I could also see IND-FLL and possibly IND-RSW served by NK as long as they don't think IND's costs have been too high as they have been in the past.

Quoting EMB170 (Reply 22):
I think UA has to keep IND all Express for a certain number of years now due to contractual obligations with its rampers in IND (correct me if I'm wrong).

Interesting if true. How does this affect the integration of UA/CO ops at IND, as CO flies mainline 737s to IND in addition to ERJs? And are the plans for UA to move from Concourse B to Concourse A in with CO (more space), or for CO to move from A to B with UA (closer to US)? They'll have to do something.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):

Yes - but what connecting purpose would going straight south serve?

This...

Quoting lv (Reply 20):
Well you could use IND-BNA to connect to JAX, MSY, ECP, CHS, etc. as WN builds it's brand in the southeast.

as well as FLL, RSW, and HOU. These are all cities WN doesn't serve from IND.

They could slap in a stop at BNA on an IND-MCO flight or a stop at IND on a MDW-BNA flight... that way, WN can fill some of those seats with thru-pax.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
less O&D than a route like CMH-BNA (because it's shorter)

Shorter doesn't necessarily mean less O&D. Now, I seem to remember a website people used to reference on here where you could easily look up avg fares and avg daily pax, but now I can't seem to find it.... anybody have an idea what I'm talking about? Of course, this wouldn't account for the people who now drive because there is no nonstop, but would consider flying. Still, I would like to see those numbers.


25 ERJ170 : Delta flies RDU-IND 2x daily and it has never dropped since NW instituted the flight..
26 ScottB : Why would you want to fly to NRT via SFO? It's over an hour shorter to fly via ORD or MSP, and nearly an hour shorter via DTW. It's probably MIA, act
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