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USA To HND: Round 2  
User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5443 times:

The 1st wave of USA-HND routes have been awarded and announced (or DeLayed)  

When will round 2 take place and will other times be allowed?

Also, who will apply for routes / shift routes if different times are allowed? With ATI, can JL shift slots to AA for similar flight schedules at NRT?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
When will round 2 take place and will other times be allowed?

I don't know when the 2nd round of awards is scheduled (or even if they are scheduled). I doubt the time restrictions will be removed.

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
With ATI, can JL shift slots to AA for similar flight schedules at NRT?

I am not certain, but other poster(s) on here have said that the Japanese government will not allow any transferring of slots even with ATI. (doesn't make sense to me but that is apparently how it is)


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24347 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

There is no additional formal planned round.

These slots became available with the opening of an additional(4th) runway at HND, the Japanese governments willingness to host long haul international flights primarily during slow late night hours.

Unless if something change that would allow increasing the hourly slot activity at the airport, or if Japanese carriers were allowed to possible trade usage of current domestic day time slots for international activity things will remain as is.
With the new runway, the plan is to increase slots from 303,000 previous to 447,000 of which 90,000 will be allotted to international flights.

Also remember its not just US airlines that want to access HND, there is demand globally, so even if additional slots open up there is no guarantee they will be available to US carriers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 1):
I am not certain, but other poster(s) on here have said that the Japanese government will not allow any transferring of slots even with ATI.

I don't think trades (i.e. 1 for 1) are a problem. Transfers/sales are - though AA can do any sort of slot transaction it likes with other US carriers.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
AA can do any sort of slot transaction it likes with other US carriers.

Sure. But the original question and I understood it was could AA trade NRT slots for HND slots with JL. Since JL, is not a US carrier that would not be allowed as I understand it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):

I don't think trades (i.e. 1 for 1) are a problem.

They are if the slots are being traded between HND and NRT and between a U.S. carrier and a Japanese carrier.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 4):
They are if the slots are being traded between HND and NRT and between a U.S. carrier and a Japanese carrier.

Not at NRT, I don't think - every restriction of which I'm aware is on the number of slots held by US and non-US carriers, not the actual slots.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 4):
But the original question and I understood it was could AA trade NRT slots for HND slots with JL. Since JL, is not a US carrier that would not be allowed as I understand it.

That is correct - I was just expanding a bit.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4573 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):

Not at NRT, I don't think - every restriction of which I'm aware is on the number of slots held by US and non-US carriers, not the actual slots.

Once again the key phrase was 'between HND and NRT'

Remember the original poster is asking specifically about additional access to HND by US carriers. He is not asking about anybody trading a slot at NRT for another slot at NRT.

[Edited 2010-10-20 18:58:10]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4544 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
Once again the keyword phrase was 'between HND and NRT'

You've completely lost me - no one asked that question. No one can trade slots between HND and NRT, even within an individual company.

Everyone may trade slots at NRT.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):

You've completely lost me - no one asked that question. No one can trade slots between HND and NRT, even within an individual company.

You lost yourself. That was precisely the question. This thread is about additional access to HND by U.S. carriers (check thread title or op). Why are you discussing if airlines can trade slots at NRT?

And you certain there is an absolute restriction on trading slots between HND and NRT? I doubt that is accurate. If ANA and JL wanted to swap slots between the two airports I do not believe Japan has any restrictions on them doing so. Also, I don't think there is a restriction on U.S. carriers making a similar trade - sure they would have to get DOT approval, but if DL wanted to trade a HND slot to AA to for a NRT slot there is no restriction on that. But it doesn't change the fact that JL cannot trade a HND slot to AA for a NRT slot.

[Edited 2010-10-20 19:06:52]

[Edited 2010-10-20 19:07:45]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4477 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 8):
And you certain there is an absolute restriction on trading slots between HND and NRT?

What I meant, and perhaps I wasn't clear, is that I can't just make my 0700 slot at NRT an 0700 slot at HND. But to the extent that NRT slots can be bought and sold, HND slots can certainly be used as "payment" for those transactions.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 8):
Why are you discussing if airlines can trade slots at NRT?

That was the original question:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
With ATI, can JL shift slots to AA for similar flight schedules at NRT?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
That was the original question:

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
With ATI, can JL shift slots to AA for similar flight schedules at NRT?

Look at the thread title! He is asking can JL shift (HND) slots to AA for similar flight schedules at NRT! Even if you didn't understand that he was implying HND slots from the thread title, it should have been a red flag to you when he said similar flight schedules. Why would anybody need to shift slots at similar times at the SAME airport??? The only reason you would trade slots at the same airport is to get a different flight schedule not a similar one.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):

What I meant, and perhaps I wasn't clear, is that I can't just make my 0700 slot at NRT an 0700 slot at HND.

No. You weren't clear at all.

[Edited 2010-10-20 19:35:43]

User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

There is no Round 2 as far as I know. But if things work well with the new international expansion, there could be another round.

As for new times, the mayors of cities south of Haneda including Yokohama, would like to see 24hr international operations. Some outlying cities have also said that it will improve the viability of Japan to be competitive with other Asian airports.

Reasons given:
NRT is too out of the way for people living south of Tokyo.
NRT has limited connections for domestic to international travel. The extra cost of transfer makes NRT uncompetitive with ICN which not only connects outlying Japanese airports to the world but also connects domestic airports...why is this not happening in Japan at the largest domestic ops terminal; HND.
HND, Tokyo and Japan could profit from greater connections between domestic and international. It could help NH and JL.
HND is better for the majority of people living in Tokyo, Yokohama, Shizouka and Yamanashi due to its location.
HND has a lower landing cost which makes it more competitive with the likes of ICN.

But the Japanese are not ones to make quick decisions. They will research, plan and have tons of meetings (to plan research, plans and meetings) before they decide that a 2nd round would be worth it. But even then, the political machine of Japan will step in and probably make it hard.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 11):
HND has a lower landing cost

I know you list this as a reason Japan should open up HND to more int'l ops, but I wonder if this is a reason why they don't want to? Fear of lost revenue shifting flights from the higher cost airport to the lower one. Also, could that put NRT in a financial hole similar to what KIX experiences?

[Edited 2010-10-20 20:02:18]

User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

NRT is planning a large boost in available slots between now and 2013 as the surrounding communities voted overwhelming in favor of additional flights at NRT.
The increase in slots is something on the order of 25 to 50% increase over current numbers. (Sorry, forgot the exact numbers).
They are also looking at ammending the curfew hours as well.
This should nullify most airline's cravings for HND slots because of the timing between US-Japan flights.
Of course, who knows in ten years from now what int'l & domestic flight breakdown will be between HND & NRT.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):
Fear of lost revenue shifting flights from the higher cost airport to the lower one. Also, could that put NRT in a financial hole similar to what KIX experiences?

Dumb question, maybe, but why doesn't HND just raise fees?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):

Because even though HND is less expensive than NRT, it's still more expensive than ICN or most of the rest of North/East Asia's major airports. The goal is to make HND and, in the long run, NRT more competitive with ICN, PVG, etc. That's why along with the HND international expansion there is now a plan to build an LCC termnial at NRT by 2013. Of course NRT's terminal brings into question the need for the new Ibaraki airport even if costs are lower there. It's a lesson for Americans on how 'stimulus' can go awry.

Whether this situation can be done successfully and create a reduction to the cost of operations at each airport only time will tell.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22319 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 15):
Because even though HND is less expensive than NRT, it's still more expensive than ICN or most of the rest of North/East Asia's major airports.

Maybe the more relevant question, then, is why NRT doesn't lower fees.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 15):
It's a lesson for Americans on how 'stimulus' can go awry

There is a difference between stimulus and pork. There are 90 airports in Japan whose budgets were set in regular non-stimulus spending. They were pet projects by politicians to get money into their districts. Instead of things that were needed like new hospitals or schools (positive investment) they thought a good airport would be better. But as a result we have more dead airports than effective ones. Japanese carriers do not serve some of these ports and if they do they are highly subsidized and sell at a loss. Thus many are being cut during JAL's BK and are not even considered by NH. The Koreans and Chinese on the other hand can go into these locations and sell tickets to popular asian destinations on the cheap with great connections. These airports were suppose to bring in money to communities but instead bring money to the Korean and Chinese carriers and a loss to the community. If asked, the locals would more likely prefer hospitals and new schools.

Ibaraki has been lucky. It has a good proximity to Tokyo and connections to the city that make it good for LCCs. Another airport in the Tokyo area that was hoping to be attractive to LCCs and even mainline, was Shizouka/Fuji. It has instead fallen on its ass. It has poor connection to Tokyo even though the Shinkansen goes right by it...no station.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1740 times:

I think AA / JL will start DFW-HND and ORD-HND someday and NH / UA will start ORD-HND someday.

User currently offlineHeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
The increase in slots is something on the order of 25 to 50% increase over current numbers. (Sorry, forgot the exact numbers).
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
of which 90,000 will be allotted to international flights.

Among 90,000, 60,000 were allocated this time. Some un-allocated slots are reserved for China right now. To work with the other 30,000, they should go through lots of paperworks, meetings, law-changing, etc. They want the 30,000 to be all daytime slot, but we'll see how it goes.


User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 17):

Centrair, that's a fair point about pork vs. stimulus. I guess my point was that government spending just for the sake of spending can produce undesirable results.

As for IBR, with the high-speed rail line set to come on line at NRT along with the LCC terminal designed to reduce costs, what are the chances after 2013 of Ibaraki becoming another Shizouka?


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