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QF51 - BNE-SIN - Will It Ever Become A 747?  
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7083 times:

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone knows or thinks if QF51/52 BNE-SIN will ever become a 747-400 operated flight?

Cheers,
AA

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQF175 From Portugal, joined Mar 2007, 658 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6994 times:

It's a distinct possibly. Funny you mention it, I have actually heard that with the introduction of the NS11 schedules (March 2011 onwards), Qantas plans to replace the 2-class A330s (J/Y) with 3-class 747-400s (J/W/Y). QF81/82 ADL/SIN/ADL would then continue on to Mumbai.

I know Qantas offer Premium Economy from Brisbane to London and the majority of the time, the routing offered is Y class BNE-SIN on the A330, then Premium Economy on the 747/A380 on to London. Certainly not good value for money!

Cheers


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6831 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Just wondering if anyone knows or thinks if QF51/52 BNE-SIN will ever become a 747-400 operated flight?

But where would the plane originate from? LAX flying seems to be the only time a QF 744 reaches BNE. It could come from SIN, but no 744s terminate there, but fly through. Might make sense if there is also 744 flying SYD-PER and PER-SIN.

Quoting QF175 (Reply 1):
Qantas plans to replace the 2-class A330s (J/Y) with 3-class 747-400s (J/W/Y). QF81/82 ADL/SIN/ADL would then continue on to Mumbai.

I don't get this one either. QF81/82 is only 3/weekly. Why would you make such an infrequent flight a bigger aircraft?


User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6740 times:

Well QF better up the ante in BNE or else they will lose out to other carriers.

User currently onlineZuluAlpha From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 385 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6654 times:

I think the next step for the QF51/52 might be an increase in frequency, to compete with the double daily SQ flights before we see a 744 IMHO.

I know that the management and marketing team in Queensland are trying to put a business case forward with QF97/98 to become daily with Sydney Management, hopefully with the retimed QF29/30 that might be a possibility.

I know there aren't many spare 332/333's areound atm, and there will be another spare 744 in November, then in January, then March, with 380 arrivals, Management has always said that the pax want frequency over size, but with 3 spare 744's coming up soon it is the likely outcome to see QF51/52 move to a 744, and QF97/98 to daily 330's



CR7 D10 DHT DH8 DH2 DH3 DH4 EMB ER3 E90 F28 J32 M80 SH6 320 332 333 717 732 733 734 738 743 744 752 762 763 772
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3196 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6654 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 3):
Well QF better up the ante in BNE or else they will lose out to other carriers.

Very true.
However I think the problem is other carriers offer connections QF can't offer. SIA for instance is usually 3 times a day.
It may be worth QF's time offering a 2nd A330 flight IF it can arrange connections say onward to europe, and perhaps other asian ports via JQ asia (regional thailand, viet, malaysia etc).

The reason it works so well for SQ and EK is there is an entire hub of connection options waiting for you. The route has been operated by the 747 in the past by the way, and the mid afternoon departure traditionally been the most sort after departure time to europe. That being said, in the past late nate depatures were not on offer from SQ and Emirates and they do give you the advantage of being able to work a full day and then leave the country that night rather then waiting tthe next day to start your trip. Nice if you only have a short vacation time or, if you're needed back in Australia for business purposes.

Another option for QF may be finally ramp BNE-HKG up to daily. That would allow connections to China, Paris Franfurt and London pretty easily and if they got their act together I'm sure India via jet airways wouldn't be a problem either. But given the potential to Grow Jetstar at singapore, I'd be trying to Ramp up Singapore first.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3314 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6624 times:

My understanding was the the route BNE-SIN-BOM, as currently operated, is less than ideal. It means that QF often have an A330 sitting on the ground for extended periods.

So the proposal to operate BOM off the ADL-SIN service 3pw is ideal. Currently the 330 to operate ADL-SIN comes in from SYD, and rotates back out to SYD the following morning, so the routing is SYD-ADL-SIN-ADL-SYD 3 per week.

With BOM coming off the ADL-SIN service, it would mean the aircraft would be fully utilised to/from ADL.

2/4/6
ADL 15:30
SIN 21:20
SIN 23:45
BOM 02:30

3/5/7
BOM 10:05
SIN 18:20
SIN 22:30
ADL 07:40+1


As for BNE-SIN going to a B744, i'm not convinced. Is the market big enough for such a step up in capacity?


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6580 times:

6thfreedom, I think you have cracked the code. Why didn't I think of that?

It seems to have taken them a long time to see the need for the BNE-HKG & HKG-LHR flights to line up in both directions.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3196 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6488 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 7):
It seems to have taken them a long time to see the need for the BNE-HKG & HKG-LHR flights to line up in both directions.

and from sydney on certain days too, in order to offer some kind of late depature. To fully take advantage of
offering SYD and BNE's red eye hong kong flights to connect they need to upgage MEL-HKG-LHR to a 3 class a380 as soon as possible. Even if its only on the Hong Kong - LHR leg. Acutally if they did it they'd be the only A380 operator on the route so they may even get away with a 4 class A380 although timings will be less then ideal for the local hong kong market.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 8):
they need to upgage MEL-HKG-LHR to a 3 class a380

Isn't that flight lower down the priority list than every other SYD/MEL-LHR/LAX flight? Hasn't it struggled at times?


User currently offlineAuchmithie From UK - England, joined Sep 2010, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6404 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 6):
so the routing is SYD-ADL-SIN-ADL-SYD 3 per week

Not so at present. There's only one flight originating in Sydney which leaves on a Tuesday and one flight back into Sydney which arrives on a Monday. The other Adelaide services fly SIN-ADL-SIN.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5190 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

My understanding is that additional capacity is needed on BNE-SIN and has been for some time for QF.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 2):
But where would the plane originate from? LAX flying seems to be the only time a QF 744 reaches BNE. It could come from SIN, but no 744s terminate there, but fly through. Might make sense if there is also 744 flying SYD-PER and PER-SIN.

It would probably ferry SYD-BNE-SYD once a week with 1 aircraft able to operate BNE-SIN-BNE daily or it may continue to FRA 1 or 2 days a week swapping with the SYD-SIN-FRA aircraft so operating BNE-SIN-FRA-SIN-SYD. BNE-LAX is st to become a 744ER meaning that the aircraft would operate SYD-LAX-BNE-LAX-SYD most likely. I have heard though that 1 PER-SIN could go 744.

They are said to be refitting 6 of 7 2 class 744s with SYD-NRT and SYD-SIN-FRA taking 5 leaving 1 spare so BNE-SIN or PER-SIN is definatly possible, with 4 class aircraft subbing from time to time. I thought the 1 remaining 2 class aircraft could be used on domestic SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD or something unless its retired.


User currently offlineBNEFlyer From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

Years ago QF51/52 was a 743 which turned around at SIN to return to BNE. A 744 on the route would boost capacity, though is it needed? QF should think of other routes ex-BNE instead of boosting capacity on a route that 6 flights a day some days.

Right now the only international routes ex-BNE on QF are AKL/LAX/NOU/MNL/SIN/BOM/HKG. Only 2 are daily. CX operate to HKG twice daily, SQ 3 x daily most days.

What is the reason that QF seem to continually ignore BNE? Why do we not have a BKK flight, a NRT/HND/KIX flight, a daily HKG flight and more than 1 SIN flight a day? Surely BNE could sustain a daily LHR flight via either one of those ports as well?


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5797 times:

Quoting BNEFlyer (Reply 12):
What is the reason that QF seem to continually ignore BNE? Why do we not have a BKK flight, a NRT/HND/KIX flight, a daily HKG flight and more than 1 SIN flight a day? Surely BNE could sustain a daily LHR flight via either one of those ports as well?

No it can't and QF is not ignoring you, you aren't that profitable, because to QF you are an end point, as is most of Australia, where as for CX, SQ, TG et al you are a spoke which is an entirely different matter.

Look at this way: If QF offered a BNE-BKK-LHR service what pax flows could it accommodate? BNE-LHR, BNE-BKK & BKK-LHR and BNE-FRA if it connected. Compare that to SQ or CX who can each offer BNE to about 100 ports in Asia, Europe & even Africa & the Indian Ocean and even North America (from PER anyway, although a SYD-HKG-North America is not an unknown routing. And the European routings are more convenient than via LHR or FRA so all airline with their hub between Australia and your destination is likely to be more attractive than QF UNLESS you are just going to LHR, BKK & maybe FRA and there is just not enough of you doing that and only that.

Unpleasant, but true, as is the fact that QF serve only LHR & FRA west of India, all the way to SFO/LAX!!!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 11):
My understanding is that additional capacity is needed on BNE-SIN and has been for some time for QF.

Ok, but if it is largely people connecting to LHR, it may well be better to at least stop discouraging them from traveling via HKG. Of course, I am assuming the SIN-LHR flights are doing well. If they are not, it may be easier to

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 11):
They are said to be refitting 6 of 7 2 class 744s with SYD-NRT and SYD-SIN-FRA taking 5 leaving 1 spare so BNE-SIN or PER-SIN is definatly possible, with 4 class aircraft subbing from time to time. I thought the 1 remaining 2 class aircraft could be used on domestic SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD or something unless its retired.

I'd think it would be enough to have a 2 class 744 running SYD-PER-SYD. MEL-PER-MEL can be done in a single days work for a crew, and some A330 tech crew are based in MEL.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5190 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 14):
Ok, but if it is largely people connecting to LHR, it may well be better to at least stop discouraging them from traveling via HKG. Of course, I am assuming the SIN-LHR flights are doing well. If they are not, it may be easier to

BNE-HKG should probably become daily aswell to give a daily connection to LHR through HKG, SIN also offers connections to FRA plus AMS and CDG with AF and KL and also ATH and FCO with JQ when they start. QF will have 2 daily A380s SIN-LHR from March 2011.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 14):
I'd think it would be enough to have a 2 class 744 running SYD-PER-SYD. MEL-PER-MEL can be done in a single days work for a crew, and some A330 tech crew are based in MEL.

I put it as SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD because that should be able to be done by 1 aircraft within 24 hours. And SYD has a curfew which may come into play.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

There's also connections to FCO & CDG from HKG on CX & AF respectively.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 15):
I put it as SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD because that should be able to be done by 1 aircraft within 24 hours.

Is that the right criteria though? A 2 man flight crew requires two overnights to get SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 15):
QF will have 2 daily A380s SIN-LHR from March 2011.

The extra capacity may make it easier to cut back on HKG-LHR and increase BNE-SIN. However, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't sort out the connections BNE-HKG-LHR in both directions. I believe they've fixed it in one direction.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5190 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 16):
Is that the right criteria though? A 2 man flight crew requires two overnights to get SYD-PER-MEL-PER-SYD

I'd imagine 1 crew would do XXX-PER-XXX? So they might start in SYD and finish in MEL, maybe not the best but I was mainly thinking of the 1 unconverted 2 class 744 and what it might do, it may be retired but we don't no, if there was more than 1 it wouldn't be a problem. 1 for SYD-PER-SYD and another for MEL-PER-MEL.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 16):
There's also connections to FCO & CDG from HKG on CX & AF respectively.

True.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 16):
The extra capacity may make it easier to cut back on HKG-LHR and increase BNE-SIN. However, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't sort out the connections BNE-HKG-LHR in both directions. I believe they've fixed it in one direction.

From March 2011 LHR-HKG becomes an evening service arriving HKG in the early evening and arriving MEL in the early morning. That will connect better to the evening HKG-BNE and PER services which now almost depart to late at 2300 ex HKG.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):

I'd imagine 1 crew would do XXX-PER-XXX?

Only if both the XXX's are MEL. This is because SYD-PER-MEL takes more than 8 hours of block time combined, so it requires an augmented crew, but that was the way it was done in the 743 transcon days.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):
I was mainly thinking of the 1 unconverted 2 class 744 and what it might do

A good question. SYD-NRT on a 744 is a good idea, although I don't understand why it's 6pw rather than daily. Be nice if another long haul destination could be found requiring enough traffic. SYD-HNL 3pw? A return to AKL-LAX? More SYD-HKG? PER-SIN? I favour AKL-LAX, actually.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Quoting gemuser (Reply 13):

Unpleasant, but true, as is the fact that QF serve only LHR & FRA west of India, all the way to SFO/LAX!!!

Point of order: There is also JFK & JNB.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5088 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):

Point of order: There is also JFK & JNB.

I was thinking Northern Hemisphere, so JNB is out, but I have to give you JFK. But at 5 per week on an A332 yet, it's just hanging in there!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5190 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 18):
A good question. SYD-NRT on a 744 is a good idea, although I don't understand why it's 6pw rather than daily. Be nice if another long haul destination could be found requiring enough traffic. SYD-HNL 3pw? A return to AKL-LAX? More SYD-HKG? PER-SIN? I favour AKL-LAX, actually.

SYD-NRT goes daily 744 in January. They do need a spare aircraft somewhere though even though there will be spare 4 class ones. PER-SIN I have heard will get a 744 on 1 service, but NRT and FRA require 5 with another for BNE or PER-SIN so thats your 6 gone. It would be nice to see the 744s back in AKL maybe some different ones.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 18):
Only if both the XXX's are MEL. This is because SYD-PER-MEL takes more than 8 hours of block time combined, so it requires an augmented crew, but that was the way it was done in the 743 transcon days.

Ok I see.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 21):

SYD-NRT goes daily 744 in January. They do need a spare aircraft somewhere though even though there will be spare 4 class ones. PER-SIN I have heard will get a 744 on 1 service, but NRT and FRA require 5 with another for BNE or PER-SIN so thats your 6 gone. It would be nice to see the 744s back in AKL maybe some different ones.

Is revenue on AKL-LAX really that much in the toilet that PER-SIN or BNE-SIN would be upgraded first? I would have thought via AKL would be a good way of getting freight to Australia, except for the low level of wide body flying across the Tasman by QF. It would be hard to fit much freight on an A332 AKL-LAX.


User currently offlineSoyuz From Australia, joined Sep 2010, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

QF 51/52 has certainly gone through a few types of aircraft in the last 15 or so years. As a number of people have pointed out above, back in the late 90s and early 00s it was the 743s and, if my memory serves me correctly, 742s and 763s had their turns at flying the route as well. It also amazes me that SQ can sustain 3 daily A330s on a route that's also served by EK and EY, while QF offers just the one daily. But a fair point is raised above that SQ feeds straight into their megahub with a multitude of connections possible. And on a side note, hasn't BNE international become Airbus central in the past couple of years? (QF, CX, SQ, EK, EY, KE, PR, CZ, GA, CI, MH, BR.....)

Anyway, back on topic. To the original question, I say yes. Not because I know something you don't. Just because I can. As a few posters, who are more knowledgible on the topic than me have pointed out, it'll become more and more technically feasible to use a 744 on the route as further A380s arrive in the fleet. So here's hoping. It would sure be a nice prospect for the BNE spotters who will soon lose another four holer as EK goes all 77W next year.


User currently offlinevhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1443 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

Quoting Soyuz (Reply 23):
QF 51/52 has certainly gone through a few types of aircraft in the last 15 or so years. As a number of people have pointed out above, back in the late 90s and early 00s it was the 743s and, if my memory serves me correctly, 742s and 763s had their turns at flying the route as well.

I believe the 747SP used to frequent the route as well at one point in the Mid-Late 90's. 747 operations ended mid August 2004 at the very end it was a mix of 743/744 depending on the day I remember one day around that time I was crossing the road in South Brisbane when I heard something roaring in the sky louder then I was used to. I looked up to see Nalanji Dreaming which had just took off from runway 19 on the start of it's journey to Singapore.

If anything I'd rather have have a second frequency leaving at midnight getting back in the evening geared more towards asian connections on 3K/JL/9W/IT although unless QF get more A330's it will have to wait for enough 787's to arrive.

The only flaw in making HKG a european gateway is it doesn't offer anything SIN doesn't apart from FCO which since the rescheduling of QF97/98 has 17 hour layover in HKG each way.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
25 Auchmithie : In Summer 2000/2001 I remember QF51/52 being a 767-300 and a strange 2 x per week flight QF151/152 which routed TSV-BNE-SIN and was operated by a 767-
26 ditzyboy : The aircraft quite often comes from ADL or PER, with the QF051 turning around back to BNE. Quite often the QF51 is not a same plane service. The same
27 Soyuz : I was lucky enough to score a trip on that very aircraft between SIN and BNE on two occasions - 1998 and 2004. There was something very reassuring ab
28 ZK-NBT : I don't think QF do as well as they used to on AKL-LAX, maybe it was the 743s that damaged its reputation when they were on it, older J and always de
29 thegeek : Yes, the IGW would make it far easier for AKL-LAX, however I do not think that aircraft could SYD-LAX/SFO. It may well be restricted on hot days out
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