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AC To The Middle East... Why Hasn't It Happened?  
User currently offlineIBOAviator From Canada, joined Sep 2010, 120 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7382 times:

Currently AC has regular service into Tel Aviv from Toronto but that's it for the Middle East. Why??? I think that they are really missing out on a huge, prosperous market by either avoiding or simply not seeing the need to serve that part of the world. Now granted, EK serves 3 weekly flights to Dubai and AC serves one or two weekly flights to Tel Aviv but I really think AC should consider the Middle East as it's a very lucrative market-- thus they should look into flying their own colors into the Middle East instead of using the Star Alliance... more revenue into AC's pocket if they fly their own aircraft there vs. making passengers use another airline via the alliance.

Just my thoughts


Keep Calm and Go Around!
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6219 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7272 times:

A couple of years ago AC looked at adding YUL-BEY, the rumor around here was that the US government was not happy with this. Apparently the route was shelved as it ruffled too many feathers south of the border. As to how much truth there is to this I dont know, but that was the reason which floated back then on these forums.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

I agree there is not enough destination traffic from Canada to the Middle East. There has to be an interline or codeshare for connecting passengers to go on to another location like Africa. I think rather than see AC develop its own service you will see either other *A service or a codeshare carrier start service. Egyptair for example. As said above I think BEY could start with a 763 sooner than later as the situation there stabilizes.

User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1726 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7184 times:

AC currently codeshares with MEA on GVA-BEY and LHR-BEY + LH serves BEY 12 weeklies and BMI will be serving BEY 14 weeklies early in 2011....so AC can connect pax to and from BEY very easily.

But I still think AC can serve BEY in its own metal and make a killing. Many folks on the US East coast would love to connect through Montreal and catch AC straight to BEY


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

DXB/AUH are not big markets from Canada, they are primarily transit hubs with a significant contingent of Subcontinent transit.

That leaves CAI / BEY and even IST. In the case of CAI and IST, it's primarily feeding respective hubs of foreign carriers such as MS/TK.

We know MS is trying to plan a YYZ service, whereas TK with their existing YYZ service now wants to add YUL in addition.

This leaves BEY-YUL, with significant political restriction behind this.


User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

Does BEY have that strong traffic potential from YUL ? O&D/VFR ? Just asking since I have no knowledge about this region.


The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6773 times:

My best guess is that most of the Canada-Middle East traffic is primarily VFR and therefore lower-yielding. It seems to me that AC is a very risk-averse airline; therefore, it will happily funnel that traffic via LH and FRA, or other *A hubs in Europe, as AirNova pointed out, rather than send its metal on long, thin-routes where it may already be competing against a well-established foreign flag carrier (i.e. EY, TK, etc).

I tend to see AC somewhat like AA in the sense that it is a "niche" carrier for Canada...meaning it doesn't have to serve every single worldwide market from its hubs if there is a more profitable way of doing so, i.e. through code-shares/partnerships.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

AC has been slow in taking advantage of STAR partners' services to the rest of the world. This appears to be changing however with the slew of applications it has made to codeshare on Brussels Airlines flights to Africa, and now a number of Lufthansa's flights to Africa and the Middle East. The last two months alone it received approval to serve, via LH codeshare, points in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Ethiopia. It also applied for and received approval throughout the last few months service to Tehran and Damascus on bmi codeshare. The latest approvals take effect on October 31.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6237 times:

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 5):
Does BEY have that strong traffic potential from YUL ? O&D/VFR ?

Yes, there is a sizable Lebanese community in YUL with significant O&D traffic. I believe roughly 40% of the Lebanese community in Canada lives in YUL, far more than in any other city.

[Edited 2010-10-21 17:26:21]

User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

AC was scheduled to begin Montreal - Beirut flights (3 x per week) a couple of summers ago. Their licence was revoked about one week before the service was to start. There was political interference.

There continue to be restrictions on Air Canada services to the Middle East and North Africa. In most cases, they are restricted to codeshare services. Again, political.

As to the individual above who mentioned that AC serves Tel Aviv once or twice weekly - actual services run daily during the summer and four times per week in winter.


User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6064 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
ecs ago) and read 691 times:

My best guess is that most of the Canada-Middle East traffic is primarily VFR and therefore lower-yielding. It seems to me that AC is a very risk-averse airline; therefore, it will happily funnel that traffic via LH and FRA, or other *A hubs in Europe, as AirNova pointed out, rather than send its metal on long, thin-routes where it may already be competing against a well-established foreign flag carrier (i.e. EY, TK, etc).

I tend to see AC somewhat like AA in the sense that it is a "niche" carrier for Canada...meaning it doesn't have to serve every single worldwide market from its hubs if there is a more profitable way of doing so, i.e. through code-shares/partnerships.

There is some truth to that, but you also have to look at fleet. The 767-300ER barely makes it to Tel Aviv and back safely. Extending that much further is literally a stretch. AC's larger aircraft, the 777-200LR and 777-300ER, can fly longer routes but in the case of the former they are fully committed, and in the case of the latter, they are too big for O&D routes like Dubai or Kuwait City or Doha, even Cairo. If that being risk-averse, I guess it's an unwillingness to take on outsized risks that would are best attempted with 200-seat rather than 349-seat aircraft. Then there is the issue of making best use of the airline's 30 767-300ERs. Right now it's a better economic risk to start Vancouver-Tokyo/Haneda service in January because HND will be an ANA hub, and a capacity constrained airport with only a few flights from North America and none on partner UA, only one daily NH flight from LAX (which is a bit of a dog-leg with an extra set of customs checks for passengers originating in places like Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary and Toronto).

So AC has better opportunities than going after tiny markets in the mid-east (although BEY is most certainly on the radar and may have the necessary political approval that it lacked in 2003). If a market like Greece can only support seasonal nonstop services from Canada - and a short season at that - its hard to imagine any market in the mid-east being viable for even a day. YUL-CAI would be one of the few exceptions, and that may be coming, too, and soon.

Of course, the 787-8 is basically a 767-300ER with more range and better economics, and that could well be the plane that enables AC to take on more significant risks, but the 787 story is well known to everyone, and AC certainly isn't going to speak in anything but the vaguest terms about how it might use a plane that is now three years overdue.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1310 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6039 times:

Quoting IBOAviator (Thread starter):
AC serves one or two weekly flights to Tel Aviv


Actually AC operates 7 weekly flights in the summer and 5 in winter.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 5816 times:

The canadian government simply refuse to give the authorization to Air Canada to serve any country in the Middle-east area period.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 11):
Quoting IBOAviator (Thread starter):
AC serves one or two weekly flights to Tel Aviv


Actually AC operates 7 weekly flights in the summer and 5 in winter.

Current AC PDF timetable shows 4 weekly effective November 7.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

What about sub-Saharan Africa, any markets for AC there?

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 12):
The canadian government simply refuse to give the authorization to Air Canada to serve any country in the Middle-east area period.
Quoting Polaris (Reply 9):
There continue to be restrictions on Air Canada services to the Middle East and North Africa. In most cases, they are restricted to codeshare services. Again, political.

Canada is not USA, shame on Canada if it is true, thats pathetic.

Quoting Polaris (Reply 9):
AC was scheduled to begin Montreal - Beirut flights (3 x per week) a couple of summers ago
Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
A couple of years ago AC looked at adding YUL-BEY

I'm posttively sure that was to be in 2003.

[Edited 2010-10-22 14:49:23]

User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

I the meantime we have a lot of carriers coming from middle-east/North Africa serving Canada: Air Algérie (A330: YUL), Emirates (A380: YYZ), Ethiad (YYZ), Royal Air Maroc (B767-300: YUL), Royal Jordanian (A340: YUL), THY Turkish Airlines (YYZ) and even Pakistan International Airways (YYZ).!!!!!!.......???????

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 14):
Quoting chepos (Reply 1):
A couple of years ago AC looked at adding YUL-BEY

I'm posttively sure that was to be in 2003.

Correct.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/06/03/flight030603.html

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 15):
we have a lot of carriers coming from middle-east/North Africa serving Canada: Air Algérie (A330: YUL), Emirates (A380: YYZ), Ethiad (YYZ), Royal Air Maroc (B767-300: YUL), Royal Jordanian (A340: YUL), THY Turkish Airlines (YYZ) and even Pakistan International Airways (YYZ).

Pakistan is not the Middle East, and Turkey is normally considered as part of the Europe region, at least as far as airline traffic statistics are concerned. Turkey is part of Europe with respect to IATA activities.


User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Pakistan is not the Middle East, and Turkey is normally considered as part of the Europe region, at least as far as airline traffic statistics are concerned. Turkey is part of Europe with respect to IATA activities.

I know exactly that Pakistan and Turkey are not int the Middle-east even if Middle-east is a part of Asia and those two countries are in Asia. The biggest area of Turkey is in Asia. What I was simply trying to explain is that Air Canada can only serve Israel and absolutely no arab-muslim or muslim countries. That is the reality. When Air Canada was supposed to serve Beyrouth the Canadian government denied the authorization for such a flight the day before the first flight. What surprised me the most is to see the flights between Montreal and Casablanca are full most of the time and to
see all the people travelling on foreign airlines to Middle-east.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5306 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 17):
What surprised me the most is to see the flights between Montreal and Casablanca are full most of the time and to see all the people travelling on foreign airlines to Middle-East.

All those airlines can feed a lot of connecting traffic to/from many points beyond their hubs. For a Canadian carrier, service to those points would be virtually all O&D traffic which is limited and almost all low-yield VFR as well as being very seasonal. I think AC has many more lucrative potential markets than those, with the exception of BEY. The others seem best served using their Star Alliance partners via Europe.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

First of all lets clear this, Air Canada's Beirut service launch was REVOKED DUE TO AMERICAN PRESSURE, Canada had no problem with AC flying there.

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 17):
What I was simply trying to explain is that Air Canada can only serve Israel and absolutely no arab-muslim or muslim countries.


With you putting so much emphasis on the Muslim part, I am convinced its not true, maybe an agenda of creating a negative impression of Arab and Muslim countries, and of Canada amongst Muslims by causing offense to sensitivities.

Canada is almost a neutral party in world affairs, compared to US and Europe who in some cases actively provoke hate reactions, and despite threats to them and their interests every other day, their airlines are serving Africa and Middle East, why would Canada or its airlines feel threatened anywhere, so definitely there is something fishy about what you said, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

Heck even EL Al are flying to Cairo and in the past did Amman, Istanbul and Tehran, I am quite sure majority didnt welcome their presence but still they served those places, can you compare Canada imaginary insecurity to the real threats the y face, or is Canada experiencing delusions of grandeur due to a complex vis a vis USA, that they they are giving themselves too much relevance in their deluded minset, when in reality they are almost insignificant comparatively.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
For a Canadian carrier, service to those points would be virtually all O&D traffic which is limited and almost all low-yield VFR as well as being very seasonal. I think AC has many more lucrative potential markets than those, with the exception of BEY. The others seem best served using their Star Alliance partners via Europe.


Now this makes absolute sense, btw AC have said they are interested in serving Morocco, Iran, UAE and Pakistan back in 2004.

[Edited 2010-10-23 16:55:54]

User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5110 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
With you putting so much emphasis on the Muslim part, I am convinced its not true, maybe an agenda of creating a negative impression of Arab and Muslim countries, and of Canada amongst Muslims by causing offense to sensitivities.

I went twice to Morocco. Both times when you arrive in Casablanca the flight coming from Montreal never go to a gate at the terminal. In fact, it is parked at a remote stand so that we have to take a bus to enter the terminal. On the return, I learned that the flights to Montreal and New York are not announced at the screens of the airport or at the microphone. You have to take the bus to go to a remote isolated small terminal. At the same time Morocco has an open skies agreement with Europe. I also visited Senegal which is also a Muslim country. Personally I have no problem with these countries but the problem is that no carrier of my country is allowed to go to these countries. That is the reality. I also have a son in law which is from Pakistan and friends coming from Senegal. Air Canada has tried many times to go to Morocco but the access has always been denied by the Canadian government.

The foreign policies of Canada has changed a lot in the recent years and our country is less neutral than before and there is a large problem of perception regarding some countries. It is frustrating because it is not my view I discovered so much good things after visiting Morocco and Senegal and learning a lot of things regarding Pakistan. But I realized that North America in general is living apart of the rest of the world.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 20):

I went twice to Morocco. Both times when you arrive in Casablanca the flight coming from Montreal never go to a gate at the terminal. In fact, it is parked at a remote stand so that we have to take a bus to enter the terminal. On the return, I learned that the flights to Montreal and New York are not announced at the screens of the airport or at the microphone. You have to take the bus to go to a remote isolated small terminal.

You make it all sound terrible, is that really the case? sorry but I'm findng it hard to believe.


User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4191 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Folks, I deleted a few posts because they became overly argumentative and went off-topic. Let's do our best to argue the ISSUES and not the PEOPLE. Let's stay on the topic of AC service to the Middle East. Thanks!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4138 times:

I thought the new International wing of Dorval/YUL (Trudeau) meant remote stands were no longer necessary? Regardless I think the above reaction is a little extreme. Anyways in my mind it is all about who wants to fly to these locations. If AC thought there was a need they would be pushing for more access. And I am sure there are some bilaterals that would be possible. However, unless a good connection can be made in these countries for travelers going on to other local or even African destinations, I don't believe there is enough demand. Perhpas to BEY due to the larger Lebanese communities in Montreal and Vancouver.

User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Some very interesting comments in the thread. I think obviously BEY is in the picture, likely once the 787s start arriving, so perhaps in 2014. IST & CAI might be in the cards, although I think CAI would be a more VFR market and therefore low-yield. Mind you, BCN and ATH are also lower-yield markets, flown to primarily to service the cruiseliner market, and they appear to have worked out.

As for other ME markets, given the current spat between Canada and UAE (definitely not taking sides here...) I don't see either AUH or DXB in their plans. Perhaps longer-range DOH or KWI might be possible, again 787. Should the political situation change (and dramatically, but who really knows?) IKA (Teheran/Imam Khomeini International Airport) might be possible. There is a large Iranian ex-pat community in Canada, particularly in the Metro Toronto area.

India I don't consider to be ME, but I think DEL & BOM simply have to be served at some point, given the cultural and economic links between India and Canada. Served from both YYZ & YVR. Given the uncertainty looking forward in Pakistan, I think it's off the map for now.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
25 thenoflyzone : YYZ- TLV - 9,316 km YUL-BEY - 8,713 km The B763 can therefore do YUL-BEY without a blink ! As for the availability of the B763, trust me, if the Cana
26 yegbey01 : First time I've heard this...Large Lebanese community in Vancouver? Large lebanese communities in Canada are in Montreal, Ottawa and throughout the p
27 pnwtraveler : My bad was doing a couple of things at once. Meant Toronto not Vancouver as I typed.
28 AsoRock : It has stabilized years ago with the exception of the brief 2006 war. Most major airlines have recognized BEYs potential and already serve Beirut wel
29 mogandoCI : AC should put their entire focus on connecting primary Chinese markets (PEK/PVG/HKG) as well as consider secondary ones (CAN/CTU/HGH/CKG) with all pot
30 connies4ever : Tend to agree. I thought the YYC-NRT service wasn't the best first pick for Asia direct out of YYC. Then again, not sure a 763 could do YYC-HKG, and
31 pnwtraveler : I wasn't just refering to the political situation in Lebanon but it also inlcudes the stabilization of the air travel market etc. AC has a lot of dem
32 thenoflyzone : Too long for a 763, too many seats for a B77W or 77L. The 787 is a perfect fit. Thenoflyzone
33 sebring : I was talking about the Gulf states. There is no doubt a 763 could reach BEY or IST or CAI. And as I posted in another thread a few weeks ago, flight
34 yegbey01 : what's your source here?
35 pliersinsight : Do you guys have any facts or evidence you can cite to back that up, or are you just expressing personal beliefs? Further, if the market dictates ser
36 pnwtraveler : I have heard the same thing from pilots directly that AC was ready to go in the "next while". We know rumour mills can be rife with false information
37 ojas : With AI starting daily non stop flights to YYZ next week, it would be wiser if AI and AC just code share and just make sure they have a water tight g
38 Post contains links yegbey01 : With one night before the first scheduled flight (and solidly booked flights all season long), the route gets canned due to security reasons....which
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