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Northwest Orient DC-7C Tokyo Flights?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7253 times:

Having no luck with web searches for answers to the following questions:

1) When did Northwest launch their Polar "shortcut" routing New York-Anchorage-Tokyo? By skipping the traditional stop at NW's Seattle gateway, by how much was overall trip time reduced New York-Tokyo?

2) Were Northwest's DC-7Cs capable of flying Seattle-Tokyo non-stop (with a worthwhile payload) as one of their 1959 timetables seems to indicate?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7250 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter):

2) Were Northwest's DC-7Cs capable of flying Seattle-Tokyo non-stop (with a worthwhile payload) as one of their 1959 timetables seems to indicate?

DO YOU HAVE 1959 timetable or know where it is ?


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter):
When did Northwest launch their Polar "shortcut" routing New York-Anchorage-Tokyo?

The history timeline in NW's former website says that route started June 1,1959.

A book on NW history says the DC-7C began transpacific service from SEA on April 28, 1957.

I expect many SEA-HND flights required a fuel stop, especially westbound against the frequent very strong winds on that route. NW used Shemya in the Aleutians as a fuel stop in those days. In fact they operated the airport there after the US military pulled out (although they returned later).

[Edited 2010-10-21 16:44:49]

User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
DO YOU HAVE 1959 timetable or know where it is ?

Yes  I have my very own hardcopy original of Northwest's August 1959 timetable 'right here by my side.' It's a somewhat special edition (at least to me) in that the cover promotes "Coming Soon! Jet Age Travel on The Lockheed Long-Range Electra/Jet" ...plus DC-7C schedules at a time when the "Seven Seas" was at its peak in service with NW.

Here's a link to a scan of the cover that I made for a timetable enthusiast website:

http://www.timetableimages.com/i-mn/nw5907a.jpg


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6897 times:
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It seems to me like JFK-ANC came about in mid-sixties. '66 or '67 with 707 equipment.

The -7C's could not do Seattle-Tokyo or Tokyo-Seattle without a stop (Shemya when possible) with a maximum payload. Especially in the winter months, westbound trans- pac was payload restricted accordingly.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6805 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
It seems to me like JFK-ANC came about in mid-sixties. '66 or '67 with 707 equipment.

As mentioned in Reply 3, NW said it started June 1, 1959 which would have had to be a DC-7C then. They definitely used DC-8s on the JFK-ANC-HND route after they went into their brief service with NW in mid-1960. Cover of May 22, 1960 timetable below announcing DC-8 service IDL-ANC-HND starting in July, replacing the DC-7C.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
It seems to me like JFK-ANC came about in mid-sixties. '66 or '67 with 707 equipment.

IDL-ANC-TYO DC-7C service is shown in NW's August 1959 timetable as a weekly flight (Fridays) that continued from TYO to Okinawa and Taipei. Flight times are also shown: IDL-ANC is 11.25 hours, ANC-TYO 12 hours; the Great Circle routing for each segment is ~3400 miles...well within the range capability for a DC-7C with a 'worthwhile' payload... and "just in case"...in the event of a need arising for an unscheduled stop between TYO and ANC, Shemya was a diversion of only 36 miles from the most direct non-stop ANC-TYO flightpath.

NW's IDL-ANC-TYO route was 2400 miles and two stops less than the next-shortest/fastest New York-Tokyo routing at the time, namely Pan Am's mid-Pacific routing via SFO, HNL and AWK; plus NW's service was same plane/same airline whereas the IDL-SFO portion of PA's itinerary required a change of both at SFO.

Surprisingly...or was it due to regulatory obstacles?...Japan Air Lines served New York via the much longer mid-Pacific route until 1969 when they inaugurated service over the TYO-ANC-JFK "shortcut" routing. By 1974 (or earlier?) Pan Am was also flying the JFK-TYO "Polar Route," via FAI with 707 equipment (per PA's June 1, 1974 timetable).


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6548 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter):
Were Northwest's DC-7Cs capable of flying Seattle-Tokyo non-stop (with a worthwhile payload
Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
, ANC-TYO 12 hours; the Great Circle routing for each segment is ~3400 miles...well within the range capability for a DC-7C with a 'worthwhile' payload... and "just in case"...in the event of a need arising for an unscheduled stop between TYO and ANC, Shemya was a diversion of only 36 miles from the most direct non-stop ANC-TYO flightpath.

O.k., I'm confused. Your first question was in regards to SEA-TKO. Then you responded with ANC-TKO. I would not purposly provide misleading information however I need to know exactly what the question is. The -7C's were regularly weight restricted on the route when time was of the essence. Otherwise a good load would be carried, however it was expected a stop(s) would be made. In those days it was not an unusual thing to make extra stops.
When the -8's came along EVERYBODY wanted to fly on a "jet" and there were many times when there was freight left behind for the -7C's to haul so the -8's could carry a full load of pax.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Cover of May 22, 1960 timetable below announcing DC-8 service IDL-ANC-HND starting in July, replacing the DC-7C.

Ah ha! So much for my memory on that one! Would have been much easier on the -8 as well. They frequently ended up weight restricted SEA-TKO.

One thing I would like to point out about harvesting information from airline timetables back in the day is that there were a lot of times the truth got stretched. I can think of many claims that many of the airlines advertising departments made that the company could hardly back up due to issues beyond the capability of the aircraft ESPECIALLY when it came to speed! Hyperbole ruled!
I think the OAG was more accurate and at least it would footnote when extra stop(s), etc. could be expected.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineFrostbite From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
NW used Shemya in the Aleutians as a fuel stop in those days.

I can't think of anywhere that is more fog-prone than Shemya, in the western Aleutians. There must have been an awful lot of weather cancellations on SEA-TYO services in those days. And a lot of loooooong SEA-SEA and TYO-TYO itineraries when the fog set in at an inopportune time!


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
By 1974 (or earlier?) Pan Am was also flying the JFK-TYO "Polar Route," via FAI with 707 equipment (per PA's June 1, 1974 timetable).

In 1969, the CAB allowed Pan Am to begin polar route flights, JFK-FAI-HND. The CAB also allowed PA to fly JFK - LAX / SFO, with no local traffic rights. This enabled passengers flying PA from JFK to Asia / Hawaii / Australia / South Pacific, or California - Europe / Africa, to take Pan Am all the way.

As part of the same route case, the CAB awarded Northwest LAX / SFO - HNL - HND authority. The initial recommendation was to give this authority to TWA, but a subsequent recommendation proposed that AA be given the authority. The Japanese government, however, refused to allow a third US passenger airline to serve Japan, so the route was ultimately given to Northwest.

TWA would have served HND on their round the world route, LAX / SFO - HNL - OKA - TPE - HKG - BKK - BOM - TLV - Europe - New York. If TWA had been allowed to serve HND on this route, it would have been much more successful, and TWA probably would not have been forced to suspend it in 1974.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6393 times:

Viscount 724.......
Hey I have that one too.....The second C in DC8C stands for CAN"T...because it couldn't do SEA-TOY nonstop like Mr. Douglas TOLD Mr. Nyrop it could. After of few months of ANC refueling, Mr. Nyrop got pissed and ordered five Boeing 707-320's in 1961 and rest is history.
Mr. Nyrop was so upset he xcled the last two DC8s altogether. They never showed up at MSP or SEA.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6373 times:

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 10):
Hey I have that one too.....The second C in DC8C stands for CAN"T...because it couldn't do SEA-TOY nonstop like Mr. Douglas TOLD Mr. Nyrop it could. After of few months of ANC refueling, Mr. Nyrop got pissed and ordered five Boeing 707-320's in 1961 and rest is history.
Mr. Nyrop was so upset he xcled the last two DC8s altogether. They never showed up at MSP or SEA.

I suppose these DC-8s would have been --30s ? To my mind there's no way they could have done SEA-HND with any real payload, at 4174 nm. If Mr Douglas told NW they could, I imagine his nose would have grown a tad.

-43s maybe but I don't think any American airline would have ordered this model no matter what advantage it might have had. Even then I think the -43 would have been payload-limited a lot.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 7):
O.k., I'm confused. Your first question was in regards to SEA-TKO. Then you responded with ANC-TKO. I would not purposly provide misleading information however I need to know exactly what the question is

Sorry for any confusion...wasn't meaning to ask a question; was just stating (in reply 6) that NW's IDL-ANC-TYO can be confirmed to have started in the DC-7C era and that 1-stop service IDL-TYO via the Polar/Great Circle routing was well within the capabilities of a DC-7C with a meaningful payload by giving the distances and flight times of the route broken down by segments.

SEA is mentioned in the 2nd part of question 1) in the o.p. only in the context of how much time was saved by skipping the traditional (for NW) stop at SEA on IDL-ANC-TYO.

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 10):
The second C in DC8C stands for CAN"T...because it couldn't do SEA-TYO nonstop

...as reflected in NW's September 25, 1960 timetable... in which all of their "DC-8C Jet" flights between SEA and TYO (3x weekly each way) show a 75-minute stop at ANC... whereas their 3x weekly SEA-TYO flights opb DC-7C are shown to appear as non-stops... which, I would agree, seems to be a spurious representation.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
NW's IDL-ANC-TYO route was 2400 miles and two stops less than the next-shortest/fastest New York-Tokyo routing at the time,

The next shortest New York-Tokyo route then would have been NW via SEA and ANC (or Shemya), not the much longer Pan Am route via HNL. And, as mentioned in Reply 9, Pan Am didn't operate IDL/JFK-SFO until 1969, and still without domestic traffic rights until deregulation a decade later.

Quoting Frostbite (Reply 8):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
NW used Shemya in the Aleutians as a fuel stop in those days.

I can't think of anywhere that is more fog-prone than Shemya, in the western Aleutians. There must have been an awful lot of weather cancellations on SEA-TYO services in those days. And a lot of loooooong SEA-SEA and TYO-TYO itineraries when the fog set in at an inopportune time!

According to the following partial book excerpt (with many good NW photos from their early days), they moved from Shemya to Cold Bay in 1954.
http://books.google.com/books?id=y0E...r%20inaugural%20new%20york&f=false


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The next shortest New York-Tokyo route then would have been NW via SEA and ANC (or Shemya), not the much longer Pan Am route via HNL

One of the more interesting discoveries (at least to me) in looking at Great Circle/Polar routings is that stops in remote (otherwise) 'far from the beaten path' places like ANC, SYA, CDB, YQX, YYR, YFB, SFJ, THU, KEF were anything but random choices for refueling/tech stops. Taking U.S.-Tokyo routings as examples...

SEA-ANC-HND adds only 110 miles vs. SEA-ANC non-stop
SEA-SYA-HND adds a mere 1 mile to the SEA-ANC non-stop routing! whereas...
SEA-CDB-HND is only 2 miles more than SEA-ANC non-stop!
IDL-ANC-HND adds only 80 miles vs. IDL-HND non-stop
IDL-SEA-ANC-HND (in spite of its "dogleg" routing) adds less than 500 miles vs. the IDL-ANC-HND "shortcut" routing

SFO-SEA-ANC-HND is 650 miles shorter than SFO-HNL-HND and almost 1100 miles less than SFO-HNL-AWK-HND...so with a good connecting flight SFO-SEA...an interline itinerary SFO-HND on WA or UA from SFO connecting to NW at SEA could be more direct and faster than PA's same-plane mid-Pacific service by hours.

And in more recent times, ~20 years ago DL's LAX-HKG service (L-1011-500) was routed via ANC... which would seem at first thought (and a glance at a Mercator projection map) to be "far out of the way" when in fact it added only 166 miles to the overall distance vs. LAX-HKG non-stop.

Most if not all of the Polar Route refueling/tech stop locations had military origins, in large part serving the same role in the ferrying of combat and transport aircraft from the U.S. and Canada to the European and Pacific theatres during WW2.

[Edited 2010-10-22 23:08:12]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5771 times:
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Quoting connies4ever (Reply 11):
suppose these DC-8s would have been --30s ? To my mind there's no way they could have done SEA-HND with any real payload, at 4174 nm. If Mr Douglas told NW they could, I imagine his nose would have grown a tad.

Well Doug was passing on information from his design and sales team he believed to be true. He would not have purposely misled someone like that. Then, as now, the airframe manufacturers' sales departments were a bit, shall we say, overzealous. Back in the day, the heads of the major carriers could order aircraft from Doug with a telephone call such was his reputation for integrity and honesty.
The plain truth was that Nyrop had built up a very trusting relationship with Doug over the years. In the mid-70's while still taking delivery of -10's he recounted to me how important that relationship had been to him over the years. He had no such appreciation for Dougs successors.

Another major consideration was the relationship the rank and file employees had with Douglas. Many of them had extensive war experience with Douglas aircraft such as the C-47's and C-54's which continued well into the '50's when the company brought the -6A and -6B's and eventually the -7C's on board. People were comfortable with Douglas equipment and they had a good overall relationship with the Douglas team. So it made a lot of sense that Nyrop had turned to Douglas to produce his first pure-jet powered aircraft.

When you stop to think about it, considering how late in the game Douglas was as far as jet powered airframes were concerned, the fact that they designed as good an airframe as they did (especially given the level of technology available to them in those day's) in such a short time is quite remarkable. Oh yeah, the wing took a bit of tweaking however not nearly as much as the Boeing did. The airframe eventually was refined and served many others well for many years. UA and JL can attest to them.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 14):
Most if not all of the Polar Route refueling/tech stop locations had military origins, in large part serving the same role in the ferrying of combat and transport aircraft from the U.S. and Canada to the European and Pacific theatres during WW2.

Long forgoten in most aviation circles today were NW's pioneering efforts in Alaska during WWII. A chain of facilities had to be built all the way from MSP to Edmonton, Alberta,Canada (which became the "base of Ops.) to Anchorage, Fairbanks and on into the Aleutians. It was directly because of the efforts by NW crews that the US was able to re-take outer islands occupied by the Japanese and were able to deflect attacks on other islands as well. All this, while dealing with some of the most extreme weather conditons imagineable. This led to the development of the best meteorology department in the business.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
they moved from Shemya to Cold Bay in 1954.

Well, that didn't last any longer than it took for the company to negotiate a lease arrangement with the govenment, and they re-opened the base in Shemya ('56) with NW staff. That also gave them the distinction of ops. their own airport. Shemya was very important to NW in those days.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
Shemya was very important to NW in those days.
Quoting Frostbite (Reply 8):
I can't think of anywhere that is more fog-prone than Shemya, in the western Aleutians

To what extent were NW flight ops at Shemya actually effected by fog, high winds, etc?

What alternates did NW use when Shemya was 'weathered in?'


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5719 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
As mentioned in Reply 3, NW said it started June 1, 1959 which would have had to be a DC-7C then. They definitely used DC-8s on the JFK-ANC-HND route after they went into their brief service with NW in mid-1960. Cover of May 22, 1960 timetable below announcing DC-8 service IDL-ANC-HND starting in July, replacing the DC-7C

It's interesting that the Douglas 7-Cs and 8-30s were on the ground at HND at the same time though obviously not on the same mission.
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User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
It's interesting that the Douglas 7-Cs and 8-30s were on the ground at HND at the same time though obviously not on the same mission.

Once NW had established 'all-jet' DC-8-32 service between the U.S. and HND, the DC-7Cs were used on some of their connecting flights between HND and SEL, OKA, TPE and MNL, in an all-Y (perhaps 'combi' as hinted at by photo?) configuration.

Also, in NW's March 1, 1963 timetable, there are weekly each way "Cargo Economy" flights opb by DC-7C routed HND-ANC-SEA-ORD-IDL and reverse, showing Y class only. Perhaps a 'combi' flight that carried Cargo up front and Economy-class pax in back?


User currently onlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5576 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 9):
In 1969, the CAB allowed Pan Am to begin polar route flights, JFK-FAI-HND. The CAB also allowed PA to fly JFK - LAX / SFO, with no local traffic rights.

PA's transcon flights started a bit earlier-- they're in the 1/68 OAG (and not in the 11/67).


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 5544 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 19):
PA's transcon flights started a bit earlier-- they're in the 1/68 OAG (and not in the 11/67).

Just curious...is there a clear notation that is something to the effect that PA's JFK-SFO/LAX flights at the time carried international through traffic only?


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 18):
Also, in NW's March 1, 1963 timetable, there are weekly each way "Cargo Economy" flights opb by DC-7C routed HND-ANC-SEA-ORD-IDL and reverse, showing Y class only. Perhaps a 'combi' flight that carried Cargo up front and Economy-class pax in back?

Yes, NW later operated 707 combis on some flights with roughly 100 Y class seats.


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Photo © Mel Lawrence



User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 5517 times:

Seymour Hersh's book "The Target is Destroyed", about the shoot down of the Korean Air Lines 747 in 1983, has this anecdote about Shemya:

"Elwin T. Williamson, who monitored Soviet radar tracking in the late 1960s as an enlisted man at Shemya, recalled as a high point of his year there the forced landing of a Northwest Orient airliner. Its crew, including at least one stewardess, was entertained briefly at the officer's club. She was the only woman, Williamson said, he saw that year. The chair on which the stewardess sat was later auctioned off to the highest paying enlisted man".

Hersh also says:

"Air Force men call Shemya the Rock, and for good reason: assignment to the tiny island in the far reaches of the Aleutians, 450 miles from Kamchatka Peninsula, is equated with a tour of duty on Alcatraz. There are few rocks, in fact, on the island, which is geologically little more than a nine mile square sandpit halfway between Anchorage and Tokyo containing barracks, a few operations buildings, an all weather airstrip, and a vast antenna field. Shemya is bordered on the north by the Bering Sea and on the south by the Pacific Ocean; the result is seemingly constant high winds and overcast conditions".



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5481 times:
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Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 16):
To what extent were NW flight ops at Shemya actually effected by fog, high winds, etc?

Well there certainly could be issues, especially in the winter months. The same could be said for Seattle as well!

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 16):
What alternates did NW use when Shemya was 'weathered in?'

Well, Attu was usually getting the same thing Shemya was but there was also Adak or Cold Bay and the folks at RV could provide ground support. So there was almost always a way to thread ones way along. However, it was not unheard of to xcl due to wx. Much more often in those days (and more acceptable with the pax) than occurs today.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
NW later operated 707 combis on some flights with roughly 100 Y class seats

Well, yes on the 320C's, however some of the 320B's also had cargo doors and the first class compartment was divided from front to coach bulkhead on the port side. Usually that meant available seating F10/Y90.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently onlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 20):
is there a clear notation that is something to the effect that PA's JFK-SFO/LAX flights at the time carried international through traffic only?

Clear enough. Seems odd that they weren't allowed to carry NY-Hawaii passengers.


25 Post contains images Viscount724 : Yes those 5 NW 707-320Bs (N351US through N355US) with a main-deck cargo door but without the structural reinforcements of the -320C were real oddball
26 connies4ever : Thanks for this very interesting insight ! I agree Mr Douglas probably listened to the marketing team insofar as the initial wind-tunnel test data ga
27 Tango-Bravo : Since we have touched on the DC-7C's trans-Pacific successors at NW... turning to its predecessor, the L-1049G "Turbo Constellation" that operated the
28 ImperialEagle : Same engines. Fill 'er up with oil and check the gas. It was not unusual to pay a visit to an Aleutian Island. Nobody felt like they had to advertise
29 Jackbr : Did the DC-8a ever visit Shemya?
30 Post contains links milesrich : The NW DC-8's, which they did call DC-8C's, were series 32's with JT-4 engines. (Eastern, when they introduced the Series 20 called theirs DC-8B's. B
31 WA707atMSP : Another Martin crash took place in southwest Minneapolis, in March, 1950. The aircraft clipped a flagpole on approach to MSP in a heavy snowstorm, th
32 ImperialEagle : Yes. Nyrop was big on commonality. Modifications to the JT-3D's to bring them up to -3 standard made them interchangeable with the 707's. Well, but P
33 isitsafenow : The main wreckage was found a couple of years ago about 12-15 miles off the shore line pretty much where it was expected to be. Source...Detroit Free
34 Post contains links timz : The payload-range curve in Flight for 6 July 1956 says a DC-7C could do 4500 statute miles with full payload and three hours reserve http://www.flight
35 ImperialEagle : Sounds about right to me. Can't fault them for their optimism.
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