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Interesting ATC Exchange With DL 747 Charter  
User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 24294 times:

The Philly-Phillies were coming into PHL from San Francisco on the red-eye DL 8890 when they were told to go around on short final to 27R. An American MD-80 refused a takeoff clearance because the 744 looked too close (maybe because it's a.....747?) but he was already past the hold-short line.

Listen at http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphl/PHL-Twr-Oct-22-2010-1000Z.mp3
The exchange begins at about 17 minutes. You can hear another controller shout an obscenity at American as the go-around instruction is being issued.

[Edited 2010-10-22 07:24:58]

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4503 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24061 times:

Wow    You can also hear the tone of the controller's voice change dramatically towards the AA jet. Interesting to listen to.

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 23458 times:

First mistake: "American 1209, runway 27R, position and hold"

Why wasn't the American in position like he said he would be?



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 23189 times:

So THAT'S what that DL 744 was doing at SFO these last few days...I'd been wondering about that (especially since, at first, it was sitting over by the International G concourse which is firmly Star Alliance territory). I have to ask; why does a sports team need a 747? Even with wives/families and non-field personnel and such, I can't imagine needing to move more than 150 or maybe 200 people, unless the same plane's being used for both teams?


ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 23013 times:
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Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):

Oh please, let's not even go down that path. That American crew didn't do anything he was instructed to for the most part. I'd like to see how well you do with that phraseology after having said "position and hold" day in and day out for years.

I don't care even if the American did ignore the "position and hold" clearance. He pretty much ignored the takeoff clearance and the crossing instruction as well. They hardly moved the entire time during this sequence of events and caused the go around by worrying too much about the 747 out their left window then actually complying with an ATC clearance.



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22694 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 3):
I have to ask; why does a sports team need a 747? Even with wives/families and non-field personnel and such, I can't imagine needing to move more than 150 or maybe 200 people,

A lot of media were on the flight too plus on a coast to coast trip the extra room is nice. The Eagles took a 744 to SFO a couple weeks ago.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 3):
unless the same plane's being used for both teams?

No, that probably would never happen. The Phillies were on the 744 and the Giants were on a 332.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22668 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 5):
A lot of media were on the flight too plus on a coast to coast trip the extra room is nice. The Eagles took a 744 to SFO a couple weeks ago.

Ah, okay, I didn't think the media would take the same plane as the team itself. Makes sense now!  
Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 5):
No, that probably would never happen. The Phillies were on the 744 and the Giants were on a 332.

I didn't think it would...but, it's good to hear that the Phillies got a nicer plane   



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22587 times:

Wow. That's tight use of a runway! sounds like AMR1209 should have been into position well before. He had JUST crossed the hold short line what, 1min30 secs after the position clearance ("we're ready" 17:05 -> "the guy on final is awfully close" 18:10)? Was the wisconsin ahead too slow to depart?

And at 18:40 what are the controller's words? I understand he suggests a runway change to 27L but with what terms?


User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22242 times:

Quoting icna05e (Reply 7):
And at 18:40 what are the controller's words? I understand he suggests a runway change to 27L but with what terms?

Sidestep. It's a term used when you have parallel runways and ATC needs you to cancel approach and/or landing clearance on one, and take the other runway.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 934 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22070 times:

Quoting icna05e (Reply 7):
Wow. That's tight use of a runway! sounds like AMR1209 should have been into position well before. He had JUST crossed the hold short line what, 1min30 secs after the position clearance ("we're ready" 17:05 -> "the guy on final is awfully close" 18:10)? Was the wisconsin ahead too slow to depart?

2.5 miles isn't really a big deal, that separation happens on a daily basis. Would have worked fine if he was already in position. Of course, from just the audio it's not clear how long it took Air Wisconsin to start rolling (ATC will occassionally give line up and wait a little earlier than they should), but it sure sounded like American was behind the curve. ATC didn't say "no delay" but he did say the traffic was on a 4 mile final, so either way the pilot missed...something.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22019 times:

This sort of thing happens and isn't a big deal. 2.5 miles is fairly close for the dept a/c to be lining up The issue that bothers me is the DL crew and the very poor read back compliance. They were atrocious in their communications with the tower. Proper radio phraseology is their for everyones safety. DL lowered that safety barrier by not responding or responding incorrectly to transmissions. I give the controller a pass on the TIPH verbiage. He was stressed and reverted to something that changed 22 days ago. AA may have contributed to the event by taxiing too slowly, but they were situationally aware of the inbound traffic.

Everyone needs to tighten up the radio discipline to prevent accidents.


User currently offlinemcoatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 195 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 21988 times:

What is this I hear? An AA crew hosing a controller trying to hit a gap? Why I've never heard of such a thing happening before!   

Here's a bizarre concept - if for some reason you think that the guy on final is too close (and 4 miles is a pretty standard gap so I'm failing to see the issue), then maybe one can make that decision prior to crossing the hold short line. These guys clearly weren't in the mood to cooperate with the tower. This is the stuff that really irritates me as a controller.

I consider my job to be a partnership - both parties need to help one another. I attempt to provide the best service that I can to make the crews' jobs easier. On the flip side, there are certain expectations that we as ATC have when we deal with crews. Contrary to what this crew said, they clearly were not "ready to go".

Of course, I don't know the approach speed of the 747 or the position of the AA jet when he was told to position and hold, but that's not really the issue here.


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2412 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 21874 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
First mistake: "American 1209, runway 27R, position and hold"

Isn't the 'new' phrasing supposed to be "line up and wait"?


User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21832 times:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 11):
What is this I hear? An AA crew hosing a controller trying to hit a gap? Why I've never heard of such a thing happening before!

Especially if it's an MD80


How do you like it down at MCO?


User currently offlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21225 times:

Quoting AndyinPIT (Reply 8):
Sidestep

Duh. thanks Andy!

Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
the DL crew and the very poor read back compliance.

for what? saying "roger" to a go around clearance? Yes it's a little laconic but this is typically when a pilot has better to do than reading back: flying the airplane. I give them that point.


User currently offlinesimpilot459 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20574 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
Everyone needs to tighten up the radio discipline to prevent accidents.

Because an accident wasn't avoided here?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the DL crew provided very clear, short responses in a situation where quick communication was necessary to keep the frequency open for the controller to do their job keeping aircraft seperated.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
2.5 miles is fairly close for the dept a/c to be lining up

The aircraft was told to line up when DL was 4 miles out. Takeoff clearance was given at 2.5 miles, based on what I heard. If they were in position, it should have worked out, but it seems they were not.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
AA may have contributed to the event by taxiing too slowly, but they were situationally aware of the inbound traffic.

But their actions didn't seem to show their awareness.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 9):
ATC didn't say "no delay" but he did say the traffic was on a 4 mile final

Controller did say be ready as well, in which AA said they were.

I can't see anyone else at fault other than AA being a bit behind the ball. At the end of the day, however, this resulted in nothing more than a not uncommon go-around. Hmm...seems the media isn't the only one that blows things out of proportion. (comment not aimed at anyone in particular, as I am participating in this as well).



Take off: Optional Landing: Mandatory
User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20572 times:
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Quoting mcoatc (Reply 11):
What is this I hear? An AA crew hosing a controller trying to hit a gap? Why I've never heard of such a thing happening before!   

Here's a bizarre concept - if for some reason you think that the guy on final is too close (and 4 miles is a pretty standard gap so I'm failing to see the issue), then maybe one can make that decision prior to crossing the hold short line. These guys clearly weren't in the mood to cooperate with the tower. This is the stuff that really irritates me as a controller.

My sentiments exactly. From what I was told by a coworker that was there at the time, the AA (an MD80 I might add) really didn't move at all the entire time. They crawled along and didn't bother voicing their concern until after they crossed the hold short line. That's just plain rude to us and the other aircraft out there.



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlinemav75 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 228 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19700 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 12):
Isn't the 'new' phrasing supposed to be "line up and wait"?

I thought it was...


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 934 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 18865 times:

Quoting mav75 (Reply 17):
I thought it was...

It is, but when you have a whole nation of overstressed tower controllers who had "position and hold" hammered into their head for however many years, they're going to forget now and again. You can't blame him for that because I bet I could find countless occasions on LiveATC where another controller did the same thing.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 18602 times:

Guaranteed no one noticed the position and hold usage until the monday morning quarterbacks on here got to it.

It's so ingrained into us that it's second nature to know what it means.

It looks like that AA was doing the standard ridiculously slow taxi.

No big deal with what the DAL 744 read back- it was obvious, short, and succint. Should have used his callsign, but sometimes a quick "unable" is all youve got time for. Aviate, navigate, THEN communicate.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 22 hours ago) and read 16362 times:

I believe some of you are blowing this thing out of proportion. It is unfortunate that the 747 had to go around, but these things do happen. Normally 4 miles would be enough but with a 747 it is pushing it as this airplane typically has approach speeds over 150 knots. I applaud the controllers efforts but it simply didn't work out when AA wasn't comfortable accepting the clearance. An MD-80 at idle on the ground has a pretty substantial spool up time which probably caused some of the delay for them both in the line up and wait and the crossing. You can hear the sound of the generators adjusting as the power is going up and down. They were trying to co-operate within the limits of the airplane.

As for the cursing, that was someone in the background and not the actual controller. I'm sure it was quite a sight seeing the whale go around though.

727forever



727forever
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 21 hours ago) and read 16179 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 3):
I have to ask; why does a sports team need a 747?

Sometimes it's just availability. I would imagine the 763's are tied up more than the 747's that do long segments with long ground time compared to a 67 or 57


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5650 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 15389 times:

Quoting wagz (Reply 4):
Oh please, let's not even go down that path
Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
I give the controller a pass on the TIPH verbiage.

I could have sworn I put a wink after that. Sorry guys, I was just poking some fun at it. I know how it is.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 10):
The issue that bothers me is the DL crew and the very poor read back compliance.

????

The DL crew read back every required clearance, and kept the rest short and to the point.

The only issue here was the American pilot dicking around.

Quoting simpilot459 (Reply 15):
this resulted in nothing more than a not uncommon go-around.

The go-around is not the issue. The issue is the AA pilot blatently lying to the controller (saying he'd position and hold when he didn't, and saying he was ready when he wasn't) and created an unsafe situation that necessitated an otherwise unnecessary go-around. He poked several holes in the cheese, and he's lucky we have a thick block of it these days.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2115 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 19 hours ago) and read 14855 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 6):
Ah, okay, I didn't think the media would take the same plane as the team itself. Makes sense now!  

Just a clarification: the media (print and local TV folks) aren't on this flight. The team's PR folks, are. They accompany the team on ALL flights. The travel party is also substantially larger compared to the regular season. You've got the owners, front office folks etc.

The larger aircraft are used to transport the team's gear. Since there's such a tight turnaround, you can't truck it across the country.


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1243 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 19 hours ago) and read 14682 times:

Quoting 727forever (Reply 20):
As for the cursing, that was someone in the background and not the actual controller. I'm sure it was quite a sight seeing the whale go around though.

I was over there. Yes it was quite a sight! Initiated the go around right over Hog Island Rd. It was still dark out at that time but I wanted to get a video on my iPhone of the Phils coming in. Lucky enough I got a Go Around to boot! In the hour time frame that I was over there. I saw an approach clearance canceled and 2 go arounds, a Brickyard flight had his approach clearance canceled by the Local controller and was told to do a 090 heading back around real tight. Then the DL 744 went around and finally another aircraft went around when I was near Atlantic Aviation watching the team get on the buses. There was a lot of stuff happening when I rolled up at about 6:15am. When I was driving past UPS towards the approach end of 27R. I noticed Ops "Airport 10" doing a high speed pass on 27L.

After they exited, I heard them tell the Local controller it was back open. In addition to getting ready for getting departures back to 27L they had a good number of arrivals still pounding 27R. Since it was a little after 6am it sounded like the positions were starting to be split after coming off the Mid shift combine. So there was probably a lot of things happening up there that allowed a few events to happen.

Like all the controllers up there said. AA Maddog crews = not a controllers best friend. Sure they are on their toes in the air. But on the ground is a whole other issue. For how many times I've seen guys/gals trying to move fast traffic get jammed up by them. I bet if you went across the country and got stories from the nations controllers about AA 80 crews not helping the cause. I bet you could put each story together and make a 1000 page novel!


25 Aeroflot001 : Interesting bit of Audio thanks for sharing. I dont know a whole lot about ATC but I can sue tell that the AA pilots seemed to be rebellious. Was the
26 Maverick623 : It went into effect Sept 30th. Yes.
27 virginblue4 : It's already in effect, just obviously forgotten at this moment. Like others have already said, 'position and hold' is what they are used to and then
28 mcdu : The controller gave DL a "continue" clearance when he first called with no acknowledgement. The controller gave the DL crew go around instructions whi
29 KGRB : I wouldn't necessarily say that. The Phillies' local radio play-by-play crew were probably on board, in addition to any TV stations that they have ag
30 mcdu : A go around directed by atc is not an emergency. There a multiple issues here and the improper communications by DL left the door open to misundersta
31 Post contains images cptspeaking : I dunno, I wouldn't be surprised to have the media on the flight. At least the Radio and TV guys, and potentially the press people as well, are consi
32 cschleic : A couple of weeks ago I heard the ATIS at a smaller towered airport include a notice that the new "line up and wait" was being used, as a reminder to
33 washingtonian : When did 'line up and wait' become the new phrase? What caused this change?
34 Post contains images FX1816 : Exactly, it sounded like the controller was in mid sentence and thus couldn't have yelled a curse word and gone back to working that quick. Working a
35 mcdu : It was changed to reflect the ICAO language. Line up and wait was used globally and much like the metar/taf format changes a few years ago, this bring
36 C767P : It is standards ICAO phraseology. I guess the FAA wanted to join the rest of the world. Seeing that everyone else uses it, it should help make less c
37 Post contains links PHLJJS : Looks like CBS3 in Philly did on the story on the Phillies "close- call." http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...hils-from-san-fran-had-close-call/
38 flyingalex : Good thing too. Of all countries on Earth, the USA has the most deviations from ICAO standard procedures, and they claim the top sport by a wide marg
39 ATCGOD : The tower controller issued a heading and altitude. The altitude is a REQUIRED readback, which he didn't do. Of course, the controller will probably
40 Post contains images FX1816 : Hey don't say that at my facility!!! Exactly. LOL FX1816
41 Post contains images ScarletHarlot : I love the guy who just comes on and says "....wow....."
42 burnsie28 : Then there was nothing wrong with that, negative or unable are acceptable usage as is Roger which for years has been confirming that one understands
43 okie73 : Besides taxiing too slow, American should have gone ahead and taken off. Its up to the controller to maintain seperation and if the Delta was in fact
44 Bennett123 : Personally, IMO, (not technical) it is better to be a wuss ten times, than be a smoking hole once.
45 okie73 : There are pilots who are conservative and careful. But then there are pilots who are so overly cautious that an airline could not function if the enti
46 DLATLOpsSup : FYI...the Giants have chartered DLs 747s as well for their trips to/from Arlington... Delta charters carry San Francisco Giants in World Series -----
47 Post contains links 71Zulu : 747 flight to DFW http://flightaware.com/live/flight/D...2/history/20101029/1700Z/KSFO/KDFW They have flown quite a variety of DL aircraft this year,
48 blueflyer : Didn't the Rangers go home in two 757s on AA9403/9433? I also noticed both AA and UA are throwing in a couple of extra flights for today and tomorrow.
49 ATCGOD : I completely disagree with your analysis of the AA crew. Controllers are not errorless robots...we make mistakes, sometimes we catch them, sometimes
50 okie73 : Yep, controllers make mistakes. Happens all the time. Do you really think that was the case here? I don't.
51 C767P : About the only thing the AA crew did right was to stop and say something to ATC about how close the 747 was. I realize the controller has a lot going
52 ATCGOD : I didn't say that's what happened here...just saying that putting a jet with 150 lives out on a runway, when in your opinion you may not get the jet
53 aa43e : Lots of good points here so I'll toss my oar in too. Bottom line the AA crew should have been ready to go. No excuse. I clearly heard the controller t
54 Maverick623 : Because he had other traffic to deal with. The AA crew said they would comply with the instruction when they obviously had no intention to. If they f
55 Flighty : I am just a hobby plane watcher, but it seems that if AA is not comfortable, then ATC should make adjustments so everybody is comfortable. Hurrying pe
56 wagz : If American isn't comfortable or ready to go, he should have said something before entering an active runway environment. Its been said before, but a
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