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State Of Qatar And Canada Discuss Bilaterals  
User currently onlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 9
Posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8173 times:

Finally!

The State of Qatar and Canada have met to establish an air treaty between them. Qatar hopes that it will fare off better than neighboring United Arab Emirates.

The article is somewhat wrong as there is no air treaty at the time being.

Source: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/qatar...ae-in-canada-air-talks-357966.html


I guess 2011 we'll see the Oryx land in Toronto or perhaps another city. I wouldne be surprised if QR announces Montreal and somewhere else in the USA as a continuation.


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2975 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8175 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
I wouldne be surprised if QR announces Montreal and somewhere else in the USA as a continuation.

I'm literally biting my nails in curiosity as to what QR will get. But then it depends how much Canada gives to Qatar. The announcement may come any moment and if at all QR gets access to another city than YYZ, Calgary is the best option.

My gut feeling is QR will get 5 weekly flights to YYZ.



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently onlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1849 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8153 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 1):
Calgary is the best option.

Is Calgary better than Montreal in terms of priorities? I would think Montreal as there is a large Arab population there.



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8124 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 2):
Is Calgary better than Montreal in terms of priorities? I would think Montreal as there is a large Arab population there.

But perhaps that would be low-yield tourist traffic. Whereas the oil industry is in Calgary / Edmonton, no?



I come in peace
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4785 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8110 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 2):

Is Calgary better than Montreal in terms of priorities? I would think Montreal as there is a large Arab population there.

That Arab population is situated in the Levant region i.e. AMM BEY CAI DAM which would involve a huge backtracking for pax if they flew QR via DOH !

In addition this region is well served by AF/KLM and AC/LH.

YYC may lack the volume of YUL but it has higher yield !


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2870 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
Finally!

The State of Qatar and Canada have met to establish an air treaty between them.

I can't believe it took this long. I thought YYZ has been an attractive market for QR for quite some time now.

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
Qatar hopes that it will fare off better than neighboring United Arab Emirates.

Well, I hope they don't get their hopes up too high - this isn't like a negotiation between the U.S. and E.U. where airlines from both sides were calling for freer skies. For some reason AC feels threatened by the Gulf carriers (even though it has great service and does not serve the Arab region or Indian Subcontinent), so it comes to down to what Canada is willing to give. QR didn't get a whole lot from Australia (IIRC they couldn't serve SYD before secondary cities) but Germany seemed to give them quite a bit. Will be interesting to see how Canada responds.

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
I guess 2011 we'll see the Oryx land in Toronto or perhaps another city.

I don't think the negotiations will be that quick! I would say 2012 at the earliest. First QR has to get the traffic rights, then they have to get the ULH a/c lined up, then they have to announce and market the new service for months...

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
I wouldne be surprised if QR announces Montreal and somewhere else in the USA as a continuation.

I would be VERY surprised to see YUL before YYZ, and I don't see QR operating a one-stop flight to any American market. Something like LAX-YUL-DOH might sound great at first, but it wouldn't be competitive against an EK nonstop because pax (especially premium) would not want the extra stopover. Remember that nobody is going to Doha on these flights. So if a LAX-DEL passenger can pick between LH, UA/CO, BA, EK, or QR, QR would fall to dead last in most cases due to the second stop versus the convenient one-stop option on everyone else.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2975 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8061 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 5):
I don't think the negotiations will be that quick! I would say 2012 at the earliest.

If the deal is signed today, QR is in a position to start services as early as March 2011.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 5):
can't believe it took this long. I thought YYZ has been an attractive market for QR for quite some time now.

Maybe for so many years Canada was not even willing to talk?

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 5):
. QR didn't get a whole lot from Australia (IIRC they couldn't serve SYD before secondary cities) but Germany seemed to give them quite a bit.

QR has very close ties with LH. LH code shares on QR flights to FRA, MUC (not TXL) and QR code shares on LH's DOH-RUH-FRA flight and to many European points beyond FRA. Can this be a reason for a liberal attitude towards QR?



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7855 times:

Behramjee,

Just out of curiosity, have you ever looked at the volumes between Calgary and the relevant ODs that QR would serve?

I'm sure you've done your homework, and I'm certain you would see that the market size is virtually tinier than a half empty A320 could offer.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4785 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Yeah but you and I both know QR is not an O&D carrier.

99% of their flight to YYC (if operated) will be transit traffic bound to DXB, India, PAK, DAC etc etc. If they flew a 3 weekly DOH YYC service, their S/F with a B 77L would likely be 50-55% max with the summer peak (june-aug) being 65% max.

Like I said earlier YUL would offer higher volume versus YYC no doubt but there is more J class high yielding demand to/from YYC for QR to target versus YUL...so when it comes down to choosing between the 2 cities, it is indeed a 'catch 22 situation'.

Anyways whats more important is the outcome of this bilateral negotiations...anyone has any concrete updates to provide?


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7765 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8):
Quoting behramjee (Reply 8):
Yeah but you and I both know QR is not an O&D carrier.

99% of their flight to YYC (if operated) will be transit traffic bound to DXB, India, PAK, DAC etc etc. If they flew a 3 weekly DOH YYC service, their S/F with a B 77L would likely be 50-55% max with the summer peak (june-aug) being 65% max.

Like I said earlier YUL would offer higher volume versus YYC no doubt but there is more J class high yielding demand to/from YYC for QR to target versus YUL...so when it comes down to choosing between the 2 cities, it is indeed a 'catch 22 situation'.

I'm not debating whether YUL or YYC would work, but where is the evidence that YYC offers this "significant" yield to the Middle East & Beyond.

KL/BA and LH can't make F class work in YYC, and most of them send high density small gauge to the destination.


User currently offlineflyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 812 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7727 times:

Well Qatar can offer Canada access to build the new Camp Mirage on its soil. In return maybe they can get rights for 7 weekly frequencies. As Qatar has only 1 carrier, then QR can use all those for a service to Toronto. I think it is better to offer regular service to one city, then spilt up between two. Also QR has codeshare agreement with many Star Alliance carriers, so maybe they can make a deal with AC for onwards connections from YYZ. This is off course my personal opinion, but i think it is possible.


I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7677 times:

Since AC is in Star and QR is nearly there, it's actually beneficial to the Canadian economy and to AC to allow more than 7 weekly frequencies and let AC/QR code share everything. If they want a JV, I think it would easily be approved. Then QR can use this to kill off EK and EY.

QR can start first, then AC can follow up with their own metal when the 787-9 arrives.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

The discussions are well underway and with these sorts of negotiations, things could happen quickly or very slowly. The ability to codeshare and the possiblitlity of *A partner is particularly attractive. It would be the same thing IF WestJet was interested as well. The FLYYUL above is right on when he points out the volume between the oil markets in Alberta and the Middle East is not nearly as big as people believe. A quick connection in Toronto or Montreal would work fine since the flights are almost hourly and more, so it isn't as if there is a huge time time delay sitting on the ground. YYZ is the biggest business capital so I would be surprized if that wasn't the airport of choice. Nothing will be signed that the government would think would jeopardize an existing carrier. For example Jet, Pakistan or Air India. The point of new bilaterals in governments policy is to augment and increase access but not at the expense of choice in the marketplace.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25416 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7536 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
Since AC is in Star and QR is nearly there, it's actually beneficial to the Canadian economy and to AC to allow more than 7 weekly frequencies and let AC/QR code share everything. If they want a JV, I think it would easily be approved. Then QR can use this to kill off EK and EY.

Well use that logic with Turkish Airlines, and Canada's reluctance to authorize more then 3-weekly frequencies.

What Qatar might or might not get is a gamble based on the mood of Canada.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1687 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7503 times:

I think that a Qatar-Canada 'Open Skies' of some sorts would work very well, given QR's close links with *A. The question is-how would LH react? They traditionally carry a lot of the North America-India market, and in recent traffic a lot of that market has shifted towards EK/EY/QR. Canada, however, remains less a problem so far, since EY/EK are restricted to 3 weekly flights each. BUT-if AC/QR go all out, then surely LH would feel the impact. Would LH retaliate by curtailing its services to Canada? Many who supported Canada's stance vis-a-vis the UAE-Canada bilateral dispute claimed that increased EK/EY penetration would drive away European carriers from Canada in the long term.

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7436 times:

Quoting directorguy (Reply 14):
I think that a Qatar-Canada 'Open Skies' of some sorts would work very well, given QR's close links with *A

It would certainly work well for QR, but just can't see Canada buying it. Remember that there is a lot of traffic between India and Canada, so AC will want a piece of that market and it too is a Star Alliance member.

Canada has wisely laid out a marker for future negotiations; "we won't be bullied, so don't even try". It could choose to give QR more than three weekly frequencies, just to really annoy the UAE, but I think it will avoid such pettiness and apply the same rules as everyone else, er, with a few minor amendments ...

The one card that QR has to play is the fact that it is likely to be a major customer for the C-series; of course, "officially" such a link to air access negotiations is verboten and I'm ashamed to even mention it (yeah, right), but of course, it can't hurt ...

QR and AAB will see that getting a decent amount of frequencies to Canada (would it be interested in other cities besides YYZ? I'm sure Montreal has a decently sized Muslim and Indian population and I know Vancouver does) will give them a hugely important advantage over their near neighbours and since the UAE's novel approach to diplomacy has helped to keep EK and EY muzzled in the Canadian market for a good while to come, Qatar will play this very, very carefully and I would be surprised if, by the end of next year, QR didn't have access to YYZ (4 or 5 times a week) and at least one other city .... and somehow, just somehow, QR will be a major new customer for the C-series.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7352 times:

Unless there are huge benefits that are obvious, Canada has always started with a smaller frequency and allowed carriers to prove the market is there and then expanded it later. I fully expect TK, if it is doing as well as it seems, to get additional frequencies or to open up another city. For example 3 more to YUL on alternating days to the YYZ. Canada knows full well what the volumes are on each flight versus listening to any PR numbers.

Similarly WestJet's new agreements with new international carriers, like they have done with Cathay and American, could result in new bilaterals as well.


User currently offlinekevin From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days ago) and read 7244 times:

I really hope QR gets rights to fly to Canada. Would be absolutely fantastic to c QR birds in YYC. Most probably YYZ will be first to get them but hopefully YYC will happen too.

User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4992 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days ago) and read 7240 times:

I am sure Canada's negotiation with the State of Qatar would be the same with any bilateral with any country. Namely, it has to be beneficial to both countries.

As Canada has shown, they will not bow to pressure to open the skies to anyone that wants the business, without giving anything in return ... just because they really really really want it!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1045 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7069 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 18):
As Canada has shown, they will not bow to pressure to open the skies to anyone that wants the business, without giving anything in return ... just because they really really really want it!

Or will they turn a blind eye and agree to a more fruitful bilateral agreement if Qatar just happens to have an airline based there ordering a sizeable order for aircraft manufactured in Canada and snubbing the UAE all at the same time? I would think that having a big order will solidify faith in the manufacturer and the plane type (leading to interest with other airlines), offer more jobs possible to aircraft manufacturer thus helping the Canadian people, all this in time for a Federal Election in 2012.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2494 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6635 times:

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8):
Like I said earlier YUL would offer higher volume versus YYC no doubt but there is more J class high yielding demand to/from YYC for QR to target versus YUL

Let's not forget one thing...QR is not after yields, but rather drives for volume, global scale, reach and excellent service. In that aspect, YUL would be a better fit.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineflyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 812 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6085 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
Let's not forget one thing...QR is not after yields, but rather drives for volume, global scale, reach and excellent service. In that aspect, YUL would be a better fit

Off course QR is after yields. Every airline is. They are not looking to open bunch of destinations so they can loose money.



I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2494 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 21):
Off course QR is after yields. Every airline is. They are not looking to open bunch of destinations so they can loose money.
That is exactly what they are doing.....What else do you call launching 13 or so routes this year and the next, including Brussels, Budapest, Bucharest, Ankara, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Bangalore, Tokyo, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, Phuket, Nice and Hanoi. They sure as hell aren't going to turn a profit on them in the short term!

QR has been around since 1993, yet they are just now saying they are profitable. So yes, yields aren't their top priority. World reach and service is taking precedence right now. They have to be this way in order to compete with EK.

When you are sitting on natural gas, you can afford to be in the red with your national airline. These Gulf countries have realized that the aviation sector is crucial for their growth, in terms of business, infrastructure, tourism, etc

Airlines such as QR, EY, EK bring an element of contribution to "country-building" for their home soil. This needs to be considered next to the conventional understanding of corporate or shareholder values. In this case, making money from these new flights is not a priority. They just want to put themselves out there and attract business...money will come eventually.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2010-10-27 10:02:53]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5959 times:

Yields is a meaningless term. RASM is the term that determines the potential for profit. XYZ destination may have higher ytields, but lower traffic, meaning less RASM.

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5940 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 23):


Yields is a meaningless term. RASM is the term that determines the potential for profit. XYZ destination may have higher ytields, but lower traffic, meaning less RASM.

correct me if i'm wrong, but IIRC Yield = RASM - CASM. I think you're talking about maximizing total route profit (out to the last break-even customer) versus maximizing profit margin given constraint resources.


25 FLYYUL : Yield is the average revenue per pax vs. distance flown. Typically, on a normalized distance for two routes, the route with higher yields (or higher r
26 Viscount724 : No, RASM - CASM would be your profit (or loss) per ASM. Yield on a systemwide basis is total passenger revenue divided by total RPMs. For an individu
27 Post contains links QatarA340 : Qatar Airways was granted 3 times per week access to Canada for passengers, and 3 times for Cargo. Not surprising considering how protective Canada is
28 SurfandSnow : Well, at least they got something!
29 luckyone : The Canada-UAE bilateral allows for six weekly frequencies. They are split between EK and EY.
30 Post contains links ojas : http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...sion=1&template_id=57&parent_id=56 Yes, but the whole idea is not to allow any of those carriers more t
31 Post contains links CGKings317 : For the benefit of A.net users, here is a link to the story in English: http://tinyurl.com/QatarCanadaAir I am personally happy with this agreement.
32 Quokka : That may have been the case, but does not necessarily follow. The bilateral agreements are made between countries and not individual airlines, althou
33 pnwtraveler : It wonder how soon service starts and what airport was chosen. Cargo as well is intriguing. AC might have cargo they can book onto the flights. The Qa
34 Post contains images SurfandSnow : LOL, actually EY was the one with the foresight to introduce flights to Canada first. When EK saw them doing well (the flight was initially a one-sto
35 ojas : Yes, I do know that EY started YYZ first. However it was here on A.net where I read that EK was interested in daily flights and not 6 weekly .... and
36 sebring : The UAE began with three frequencies and was allowed to add three more. The bilateral is worded to stipulate that the signatory countries should not
37 ojas : Yes I do know the volume of Canada Qatar traffic does not justify a daily flight. But when were Gulf carriers worried about O-D traffic only? We know
38 sebring : I'm sure AC had plenty of input into the Canadian negotiating position. For the time being, there is no AC-QR relationship beyond the solid interline
39 pnwtraveler : Starting with 3 passenger a week can work. The fact that TK is upgauging to 777's starting late this yearl must mean that the route is doing well or t
40 Post contains links thenoflyzone : Just saw the following flights land in YOW. Was wondering if it has something to do with this new bilateral about to be signed... http://flightaware.c
41 ojas : It's a royal family flight.
42 multimark : Smart move on Canada's part to weaken EK by strengthening QR. And a strong message is sent to the UAE about trying to bully their way into the Canadia
43 huaiwei : For who's benefit, really?
44 yenne09 : This question is difficult to answer. I remember that many years ago Canada and Singapore failed to reach an agreement. I realized that this is a beg
45 multimark : For Canada's. It very politely sends a message that reasonable countries will be dealt with respectfully, whereas bullies will not.
46 sebring : The UAE bilateral began with three frequencies with annual increases of one frequency until the number available reached six. If the same formula was
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