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Pax Willing To Pay More In Exchange For Increased Safety Standards  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8703 times:

A shocking study indeed: "A majority of corporations indicate that they would be willing to pay much higher airfares in return for higher safety standards at the regional airlines,” Mitchell said in his survey findings. "

Actually, the more interesting part is that the NTSB is thinking of monkeying with regional-major agreements making them less opaque. Ironic indeed, as the DOT continues approving JVs which feature even more insidious safety concerns since U.S. laws do not directly govern maintenance on foreign flag operators that are providing the aircraft for 1/2 or more of the flying in these JV agreements with U.S. carriers

“This myriad of relationships can be confusing to the traveling public,” NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said on the first day of hearings. “We need to know more, and the public needs to know more.”



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...s-review-ntsb-says.html?cmpid=yhoo

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8655 times:

I honestly do go out of my way to avoid RJ flights, but only because I find mainline to have much better service, entertainment, and comfort. In terms of safety, I don't think they are more dangerous at all - many of those pilots are flying out of extreme Great Plains blizzards or tough mountain airports like ASE and TEX all day long!


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinecontrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8586 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
I honestly do go out of my way to avoid RJ flights, but only because I find mainline to have much better service, entertainment, and comfort.

Same here. I've also noticed that the RJ flights get cancelled a lot faster than mainline flights when starts when the weather starts to deteriorate.



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8339 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
I don't think they are more dangerous at all - many of those pilots are flying out of extreme Great Plains blizzards or tough mountain airports like ASE and TEX all day long!

They're doing a heck of a lot more hands on flying than the senior captain doing three HKG trips per month....



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Ironic indeed, as the DOT continues approving JVs which feature even more insidious safety concerns since U.S. laws do not directly govern maintenance on foreign flag operators that are providing the aircraft for 1/2 or more of the flying in these JV agreements with U.S. carriers

The FAA may not have jurisdiction on the foreign carriers involved, but to insinuate that these carriers are not subject to adequate oversight is hot, steaming b---s---.

Take a good look at the carriers for whom ATI has been approved, there's not a single one I would hesitate to fly on.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineMHO From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8250 times:

I found the CRJ-900's to be quite comfortable, actually. Better that the smaller ones where you have to huinch over to see the tops of the window, and even more legroom than the old MD80's AA flies.


It's better to be a little behind than a big ass
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2887 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8166 times:

Quoting MHO (Reply 6):
I found the CRJ-900's to be quite comfortable, actually. Better that the smaller ones where you have to huinch over to see the tops of the window

I assume you aren't talking about the YV CR9s flying for USX then. Those seats are filthy, worn out/falling apart, and misaligned with the windows.

I'm sure the DLC birds are much nicer, but I'd still much prefer E-jet or mainline plane any day of the week.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
JVs which feature even more insidious safety concerns since U.S. laws do not directly govern maintenance on foreign flag operators that are providing the aircraft for 1/2 or more of the flying in these JV agreements with U.S. carriers

Oh yea BA, IB, JAL, LU those are not safe airlines   



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 573 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8101 times:

Studies show that people tend not to tell the whole truth about their spending habits.

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3147 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

I have to say that the Jungle Jets are my top choice to fly anywhere. I'm guaranteed a window or aisle, and I get my carryon stowed for me. Posh! I am now getting to the age when I almost always older than the pilot of said aircraft, however. I'm sure they know their stuff, but my bias sometimes creeps up to the surface.

-Rampart

[Edited 2010-10-26 16:05:45 by srbmod]

User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
They're doing a heck of a lot more hands on flying than the senior captain doing three HKG trips per month....

Agreed. I am sort of divided on the issue...

I have many friends flying as F/O's and Captains at regional airlines and I will say only this: they know their sh*t when it comes to the airplane they fly. The information they can talk about without batting an eye is amazing.

I used to work for a Part 135/121 carrier, and the pilot-training program is intense. The wash out rate is staggering, and I for one would not think twice about boarding a regional aircraft.

Alas, the media has done a great job at altering public perception on regionals  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

Quoting contrails (Reply 2):

Same here. I've also noticed that the RJ flights get cancelled a lot faster than mainline flights when starts when the weather starts to deteriorate.

Primarily because many regional operators choose not to be approved for CAT II and III operations due to the fact that their flights aren't very long.

They are also cancelled by the airlines that they fly for.



DMI
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7678 times:

Quoting contrails (Reply 2):
I've also noticed that the RJ flights get cancelled a lot faster than mainline flights when starts when the weather starts to deteriorate.

That's my only qualm about it, and really the only reason I try to avoid UAX out of Chicago.

AFAIK there is no statistical evidence that RJs are any less safe than mainline. I don't know why certain news media have decided to try to make people believe so.

Also, this...

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DOT continues approving JVs which feature even more insidious safety concerns since U.S. laws do not directly govern maintenance on foreign flag operators that are providing the aircraft for 1/2 or more of the flying in these JV agreements with U.S. carriers

...is over-the-top as well. Please name a single DOT-approved JV that involves an airline with a "bad" safety record.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7661 times:

What is the alternative? Are their more experienced pilots out there to fly these machines?

Everyone has to start somewhere. Paying more, spending more will accomplish what? We pay regional pilots $100-K a year and make fares $1,000 a flight and it won't make that pilot any more proficient. Just ask those NW pilots tooling around the upper Midwest and overshooting MSP.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6070 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 12):
Primarily because many regional operators choose not to be approved for CAT II and III operations due to the fact that their flights aren't very long.

They are also cancelled by the airlines that they fly for.

More the latter than the former. Of course, at the same time, the mainline is ALSO cutting flights. Take a look at ORD for today.

There are a few regionals that are only Cat I, but many are Cat II, and a few have Cat III.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7498 times:

Or the Continental pilots that ran off a runway in Denver.
Or the Delta pilots that landed on a taxiway in Atlanta.
Or the American pilots that overran a runway in Jamaica.
Or the Southwest pilots that ran off a ruwnay in Chicago.

A slight change in luck and any one of those accidents would have killed more people than the last 6 regional accidents combined.

When you get on a regional today, you're going to have a crew that has quite a few years of experience. In many cases you might see a furloughed mainline pilot at the controls as well. Fact is airlines are a business and the regionals found it easier to lower experience requirements than raise pay to retain their experienced pilots.



DMI
User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6305 posts, RR: 33
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7337 times:

Wow ! I wasn't aware that RJs are falling like snowflakes. How strange of a poll.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7244 times:

Quoting contrails (Reply 2):
Same here. I've also noticed that the RJ flights get cancelled a lot faster than mainline flights when starts when the weather starts to deteriorate.

That's no coincidence. Mainline decides what gets canceled during flow control and its more expensive to cancel their own flights so the RJs get dinged. US and UA are the worst at this.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 4):
The FAA may not have jurisdiction on the foreign carriers involved, but to insinuate that these carriers are not subject to adequate oversight is hot, steaming b---s---.

If I remember correctly, Mexico has been downgraded to safety level 2. AM, for example, was code sharing with DL and there is not much reason to think a JV with AM won't be considered in the next 10 years. Further, Mexico was not downgraded because the FAA thought there would be safety issues in the future. It was downgraded because they found safety deficiencies in the past while DL's code flew on AM metal. JV or code share it's the same thing to the passenger. My point is that the obscuring of the operator of a flight gets greater and greater as these deals become more and more all-encompassing.

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Oh yea BA, IB, JAL, LU those are not safe airlines

I would not be at all surprised if JAL had safety problems going forward. They have massive financial problems. How dare me think that a bankrupt airline might cut back on maintenance expense during or after exit. Imagine an airline letting a 737 fly around with shop towels in the engine to block a leak in the sump. Oh, wait that was United. Thank god the FAA was there to prevent that from happening after it already had flown for a month.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 12):
AFAIK there is no statistical evidence that RJs are any less safe than mainline.

Actually (knock on wood) a mainline USA carrier has not killed a passenger in how many years? 4 or 5 I think. There have been several deadly regional accidents in that same timeframe, so the rate is obviously higher for regionals since it is higher than zero.

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 12):
Please name a single DOT-approved JV that involves an airline with a "bad" safety record.

Is that even a factor in the evaluation? Show me where it says that somewhere? One is FAA and one is DOT/DOJ. They don't agree on many things. For that matter, the DOT and DOJ barely ever agree either.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7645 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7221 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
That's no coincidence. Mainline decides what gets canceled during flow control and its more expensive to cancel their own flights so the RJs get dinged. US and UA are the worst at this.

Not exactly.

When flow control kicks in, generally RJs are the first to be cancelled since it impacts fewer people. Smaller aircraft are more likely to be cancelled since a 50 seat RJ and a 180 seat 757 take the same slot, however cancelling an RJ impacts 1/3rd the passenger. Plus it makes more sense to cancel 1 of the 8 daily ATL-ROA flights versus an 777 to Asia. Sometimes it is easier to cancel the shortest flights as some of these people will just drive or they will charter a bus.

Plus, some airlines, aircraft, or pilots at regionals don't have as low of operating minimums so you may see a mainline aircraft flying while RJs are stuck.

In a sense yes it is more expensive to cancel a mainline, and/or larger aircraft. Smaller aircraft (props and RJs) have a lower priority in flow control to minimize the total number of passengers impacted when feasible.

Most airlines do this, not just US and UA, DL does it all the time too.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6966 times:

One of the main issues to some that has been brought out is the low pay of regional pilots/FO's. Regional pilots should be paid more than an charter or regional bus driver on an annual rate. The pay should be sufficient so that someone can with some reasonable sharing, afford a place to live near their base so don't have to travel time zones non-rev to get to their base.

Regulation of regional airliners and aircraft should be improved to make sure the aircraft are kept in top condition, there is sufficient training of pilots especially in dealing with dangerous weather conditions.

Perhaps too the big airlines who's labels are used on these flights and are mainly sold by them should also have to take significant legal liability for these contracted airlines.

For all airlines, of all sizes, there needs to be an international standard requiring at least 12 hours from a day cycle to the next day cycle of flying to allow sufficient time for travel to/from a hotel or home, to eat, to clean up and most of all, 8 hours for sleep. that would assure better rested pilots which means less risky operations.

Will there be a cost to do the above? Of course and the article that started that post suggests that some fliers will be willing to pay much more to get a safer flight. There are limits as to how much more people are willing to pay of course and limits how much desirable change can be afforded and still assure profits to the airlines.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6732 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 13):
Paying more, spending more will accomplish what?

Getting better people.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 13):
We pay regional pilots $100-K a year and make fares $1,000 a flight and it won't make that pilot any more proficient.

The airlines won't have to hire that pilot, because there will be other more qualified ones who are willing to work for those wages, but aren't for what the airlines pay now. Why do we pay doctors so much? Why do we pay lawyers so much? I'm sure we could get lots of people who would be happy to do that work for half the money. Of course, the best and brightest wouldn't be too interested in investing all that time and money in medical school or law school if the returns at the end were half what they are now, so they'd probably go do something else. And so you wouldn't get the best and the brightest doctors or lawyers. But I'm sure they'd do fine most of the time.  

Commutair wants to cut its pilot wages down to just under $21,000 a year for a third year FO (first year FOs would make less than $20,000), and just under $40,000 a year for a sixth year captain. YHGTBSM. How the hell are you going to convince smart people to spend a good deal of money on flight training if that's the payout at the end?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6729 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Actually (knock on wood) a mainline USA carrier has not killed a passenger in how many years? 4 or 5 I think

I think the last one was the AA A300 that crashed in New York in November 2001.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6502 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):

I honestly do go out of my way to avoid RJ flights, but only because I find mainline to have much better service, entertainment, and comfort.

I've never noticed a big difference in service, entertainment you're right, but comfort is a mixed bag depending on the plane.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 1):
In terms of safety, I don't think they are more dangerous at all

Regional carriers tend to be like mainline carriers in terms of safety and culture. Some are good and some are bad, and blanket statements tend to be inaccurate at best.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 4):
The FAA may not have jurisdiction on the foreign carriers involved, but to insinuate that these carriers are not subject to adequate oversight is hot, steaming b---s---.

   And if it gets too bad, the safety rating is lowered and their planes are not allowed in the country. Not to mention that the carrier selling the ticket has to disclose who is actually doing the flying, so it is possible for customers to avoid a certain carrier if they feel it is warranted.

Quoting rampart (Reply 9):
I have to say that the Jungle Jets are my top choice to fly anywhere.

8A might be the best coach seat in the sky. At least once I sit down. Walking around on an ERJ usually results in hitting my head several times, but I don't mind carrying my bag out to the plane myself.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 10):
Alas, the media has done a great job at altering public perception on regionals

That got real easy when the public watches a grey haired pilot land on a river and then a regional aircraft crashes with young pilots and questionable working conditions.

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
I would not be at all surprised if JAL had safety problems going forward.

I read an article in Airways a while back where the Japanese basically made a museum of debris from accidents, so I would guess that their safety culture is alright.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1849 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6389 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
I would not be at all surprised if JAL had safety problems going forward. They have massive financial problems. How dare me think that a bankrupt airline might cut back on maintenance expense during or after exit. Imagine an airline letting a 737 fly around with shop towels in the engine to block a leak in the sump. Oh, wait that was United. Thank god the FAA was there to prevent that from happening after it already had flown for a month.

I would. I remember flying JAL once and seeing an inflight video that talked about how each 747 had it's own dedicated team of mechanics that worked only on that particular airplane so they knew every inch of that plane and all of it's individual quirks and eccentricities. I doubt an airline like JAL is going to put finance ahead of anything in the purview of the passenger whether that be maintenance or inflight service. Will they cut a lot of mid level managers as a result of the bankruptcy process? Likely, but i guarantee you that in a country like Japan, where where reputation, or face, is everything, they will not cut anything that has an effect on the individual passenger's perception of them as an airline, that includes inflight service and maintenance.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7308 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):

When flow control kicks in, generally RJs are the first to be cancelled since it impacts fewer people.

Part A true, Part B not so true. Delta and US Airways have traditionally scheduled surplus frequencies into close by markets out of LGA and PHL and referred to the flights as "cancellation fodder". Which is akin to "cannon fodder". That's the practice of sending troops into battle purposely to die in order to either expose another avenue of attack or simply draw down opposing ammunition. Also union rules (and wages) at regionals make it much cheaper to cancel than mainline. You can say its about customer service...and I'd like to think that...but it's all about dollars and cents.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):

In a sense yes it is more expensive to cancel a mainline, and/or larger aircraft.

As I said...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
not just US and UA

UA also has traditionally done it in ORD as well. That's why MKE-ORD has always had such ridiculous frequency.

Quoting homsar (Reply 21):
I think the last one was the AA A300 that crashed in New York in November 2001.

Probably, so in terms of deaths per ASM, the majors (knock on wood) have a much better record.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
I read an article in Airways a while back where the Japanese basically made a museum of debris from accidents, so I would guess that their safety culture is alright.

ick

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 23):
I remember flying JAL once and seeing an inflight video that talked about how each 747 had it's own dedicated team of mechanics that worked only on that particular airplane

My point exactly. I'd be shocked if that's still the case post- bankruptcy. That's exactly the kind of expensive process that gets eliminated when the chips are down.


25 Goldenshield : You must be unlucky. I've NEVER seen DL swap times. To improve such regulation, there has to BE such regulation. However, that said, there's only one
26 BMI727 : The pictures in the article made it look like the place wasn't too grisly, though I believe some personal items of passengers were among the exhibits
27 RamblinMan : So in order to prove a point, we're arbitrarily comparing safety records over just that timeframe? That's utterly meaningless. Again, utterly meaning
28 Rising : This whole issue has been fanned by the media for the past several years now and should be looked at with some critical thinking. The fact is the pres
29 pilotpip : And as I pointed out earlier, the Legacies and large LCCs are just a slight change in luck from being right there. In fact they've had nearly as many
30 PPVRA : There's Fedex Flight 80 as a non-regional accident. No pax luckily, but still an airline. Aside from that, there's: Air Midwest Flight 5481 - weight i
31 pilotpip : Doesn't really matter how old, or new the plane was. In the case of American down in Jamaica this past summer the 737 they broke into 3 parts was only
32 PSU.DTW.SCE : Two different issues. The airlines are not scheduling flights for the purpose of cancellation fodder. They are scheduling flights to hold/squat on sl
33 Goldenshield : Oh, you were talking about CANCELLING in that sentence, not slot swapping. Hard to surmise since you were talking about BOTH in the same post.
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