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Flybe And The Embraer 175  
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11849 times:

Some European airlines are already getting rid of their Embraer 170/175 and CRJ700s, e.g. Lufthansa, Finnair and LOT, as they apparetly feel that it is difficult to operate a 70/80 seater jet . So it is interesting that Flybe has ordered up to 140 Embraer 175 rather than additional Embraer 195s (or slightly smaller Embraer 190s). The usual explanation given is that the 78seat Q400, which has served BE well, simply lacks the legs for longer intra-European flights so that a jet is needed.

That said, the E175 is a 88 seater in Flybe's configuration rather than a 70seater, but still a category of jet that other airlines view critically. In your view, what makes Flybe's approach to the E175 unique so that they are confident to have bought a winner? The high density layout? The different business model they have compared to network carriers? I am asking because if the Embraer 175 is such a winner, they could have operated it since 2005 instead of ordering Q400s and/or E195 in the first place. Why the change of mind all of a sudden?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11722 times:
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Perhaps the E195 is too big for most routes (118 seats with 3 FAs) while 88 seats is more rightsized and only requires 2 FAs (like the Q400, so aircraft swapping is easier from a cabin crew rostering perspective?).

Could be that jets with less than 80 seats are unable to make money while those with 80-100 seats have much better CASM... the CRJ900 has had some success in Europe so far.

FlyBe's strength may be their lower-capacity aircraft flying between smaller destinations and avoiding direct competition with the big LCCs that fly 148-189-seat jets which oversaturate the supply.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently onlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3575 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11559 times:

I think most airlines are dumping their 170's not 175's. In Flybe's config this means an extra 10 seats from the Q400s. Has Flybe got any 175s yet? I'd love to try them out.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1045 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11506 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
Has Flybe got any 175s yet?

Not yet.
flybe has according to GINFO:
14 x Embraer 195 (G-FBEA - G-FBEN)
56 x DHC Dash 8-Q400 (G-ECO_ + G-FLB_ + G-JEC_ + G-JED_)


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11406 times:

FlyBe are a profitable airline, and the 175 fits right between the dash 8 and 195 in terms of size (but not much larger than the Dash, so they can fly a previous Dash route at a much higher speed to squeeze in a few more rotations.)

Or maybe they've just had trouble filling their 195s on some routes? Whatever the reason i'm sure it's well calculated.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
Has Flybe got any 175s yet?

Nope, they only announced the order at this year's Farnborough.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11403 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 2):
Has Flybe got any 175s yet? I'd love to try them out.

They will get their first E175 in 2011.


User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10744 times:

Is this a new theme in a.net?

The E170/5s are not shrinks like the A318. They do have noticeably lower trip costs than their bigger brothers. so if you don't need the capacity you go with them on those missions. It's not one or the other. You can have the two in your fleet.


User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5167 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Thread starter):
Lufthansa, Finnair and LOT,

The three airlines you listed are all hub based carriers, who's primary market is intra-european or long-haul flying. Their Embraers are used to provide connections to smaller destinations.

FlyBE on the other hand is a regional carrier, specialising in flying UK domestic flights, or short range european flights. They do not provide connections.

It is not a case that the Embraer is not profitable, but rather many airlines are moving away from the business model of providing connections to smaller airports. FlyBE do well with the Dash-8, yet many carriers have dropped these, many of their fleet came from BA, who have scaled back their domestic operations, even dropping Airbus and Boeing service to some UK destinations. That doesnt mean the Airbus/Boeing are not profitable, but rather the business model doesnt work.

Almost any aircraft is profitable when used correctly.



That'll teach you
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

I am not doubting that the E175 is not a shrink. But I am wondering where the E175 fits in cost-wise for a semi-LCC like Flybe when they already operate the Q400 and the E195.

The E175 is a 12,5% capacity increase over the Q400. Are the costs not more than 12,5%? If not, does Flybe feel that they can generate more revenue with them because they can serve markets not accessible with the Q400?


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10465 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 7):
They do not provide connections.

Flybe very much offer connections, both within their own network and onto other carriers



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently onlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1329 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10411 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Thread starter):
Some European airlines are already getting rid of their Embraer 170/175 and CRJ700s, e.g. Lufthansa, Finnair and LOT,

LOT is new for me, how many have left the fleet so far?



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10320 times:

They have dumped at least two to the air force (actually a lease).

User currently onlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1329 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 12 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10286 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 11):
They have dumped at least two to the air force (actually a lease).

Yes, I was aware of these two, but they will return to LOT in 2012.



'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (3 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10029 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 8):
The E175 is a 12,5% capacity increase over the Q400. Are the costs not more than 12,5%? If not, does Flybe feel that they can generate more revenue with them because they can serve markets not accessible with the Q400?

The E175's will be used on markets where a Jet would be more appealing to the customer and where competitors use Jets, an example would be the GCI-LGW service the aircraft will be launched on. The Embraer's will also help the carrier with it's next expansion plan into Europe.

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 7):
They do not provide connections.

Oh, but they do.

Quoting vfw614 (Thread starter):
I am asking because if the Embraer 175 is such a winner, they could have operated it since 2005 instead of ordering Q400s and/or E195 in the first place. Why the change of mind all of a sudden?

Although the E175's may replace a Q400 here or there, they will be used mainly for expansion. The Q400 will not be replaced as a whole as it is a perfect aircraft for Flybe, and the E195 is perfect for the longer Spanish routes in the summer, too.


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (3 years 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9952 times:

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 13):

The E175's will be used on markets where a Jet would be more appealing to the customer and where competitors use Jets, an example would be the GCI-LGW service the aircraft will be launched on. The Embraer's will also help the carrier with it's next expansion plan into Europe.

I see your point and I am aware of this. But still, if the E175 at 12,5% additional capacity has 12,6% or higher operating costs than the Q400 - which is always praised as an ultra cost-effective airplane -, it would be a less effective airplane - unless the fact that it is a jet allows it to generate higher revenues than the Q400 that offset the higher costs (or maybe the Q400 in the Flybe business model is such a mioney-maker that a slightly more expensive-to-operate E175 does still work).

I am not doubting that Flybe has done its homework. But the role the E175 will fill in Flybe's fleet is somewhat unique as the E175 until now is not operated in a high-density layout by a (sort of) LCC.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (3 years 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9920 times:

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 13):
The E175's will be used on markets where a Jet would be more appealing to the customer and where competitors use Jets, an example would be the GCI-LGW service the aircraft will be launched on. The Embraer's will also help the carrier with it's next expansion plan into Europe.

It will be interesting to see where they fit in a European expansion. The E175 has a small wing compared to the 190/195 model, and therefore it's engine-out ceiling is much lower. So much lower that AC will not operate the ir 175ts over the Rockies. So I would think that FlyBE's E175s would likely be ruled out of destinations like Lugano, Bergamo, Innsbruck, etc., should FlyBE wish to operate these destinations -- assuming they do not at this point.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineTimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1339 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9696 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 14):

Don't forget that the E175 offers more range than a Q400, so will allow BE to operate more routes that the Q400 just cannot do.


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