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Strange Takeoff Proceedings At LAX  
User currently offlineDLATL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 31 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15364 times:

Wanted to see if you guys could shed some light as to what occurred today at LAX and why. I fly out of LAX 60-70 times a year and have never seen this. Normal traffic always takes off to the west (over the pacific), except in rare circumstances (winds/early morning arrivals). Today however, something strange happened with Delta's A330-200 headed to NRT.

All takeoff proceedings were as normal to the west up to this point. Suddenly, at about 145pm, all take off traffic stopped for 5 minutes. Next thing I knew, I saw Deltas A330-200 bound for NRT speeding down the runway...taking off to the east! As soon as it lifted off, it turned south (not North!). 5 minutes later normal traffic routines restarted and all aircraft were taking off to the West once more.

What happened today?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB-787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 273 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15310 times:

This happens when there is a sudden change in wind direction. Happens mostly after 10pm. Just so these long range flights can catch a headwind.


722,732,73G,738,739,739ER,752,753,762,763,764,744,788,D10,M80,300,320
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2731 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15249 times:

My guess is that DL requested the eastbound departure (1352) due to a 8 knot wind from 110 degrees. There was a departure at 1350 westbound and again at 1354. Could it have been load limited with a slight tail wind?

User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2185 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15241 times:

Quoting DLATL777 (Thread starter):
All takeoff proceedings were as normal to the west up to this point. Suddenly, at about 145pm, all take off traffic stopped for 5 minutes. Next thing I knew, I saw Deltas A330-200 bound for NRT speeding down the runway...taking off to the east!

Likely had to do with takeoff performance. Remember 25R points uphill, so that 20 foot elevation change can throw their numbers out of whack. That and there was a slight tailwind. The Santa Anas are blowing out there today, no?

Their MD-11s did this frequently.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2731 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 15129 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 3):
I saw Deltas A330-200 bound for NRT speeding down the runway...taking off to the east!

If the airport was returning to west flow, then either a south or north departure would have to be coordinated with other departures prior to or after the eastbound departure. Flight Aware shows a fairly tight turn to the west crossing the shoreline over Torrance, meaning it was probably well above departing aircraft doing a left turn departure from the westbound runways.


User currently offlineMakeMinesLAX From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 15040 times:

I've seen this exception numerous times with the late-night flights to AUS/NZ.

I think I've found the situation you described on the LAX WebTrak site. If you start the replay around 13:50, you'll see a lone eastward departure at 13:51:45. The airline/flight data haven't filled in yet, but the flight path looks right.

Traffic was pretty light at the time, but it's interesting to watch how ATC punches a hole in the pattern.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 15031 times:

While not very common, its not unusual at all.

Aircraft unable to accept the prevailing traffic flow for whatever performance reason can request opposite direction departure. As mentioned prior this happens most frequently with late night Asia departures, but obviously in todays case the Delta A330 was unable to meet westerly traffic flow performance.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14683 times:

Very interested in hearing the above answers- last month in BNE one afternoon I saw all takeoffs/landings to the south. Then about 7 aircraft held at 3 different points on the runway (2 spots were with QF Dash 8's) and waited while a TG 772 from the international terminal just taxied to the end of the runway and took off to the north- never seen that before.

User currently offlineMDShady From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

I have nothing to add other than in my observation LAX is one well oiled machine.  

User currently offlinewhirleypig From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14402 times:

Today was our first strong Santa Ana wind event here in SOCAL for Fall, 2010, so instead of our onshore breezes we had an offshore breeze (or gust if you're inland) SNA also had departures and landings going 'backwards' today.

RCS


User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14367 times:

I saw this occur when 25R was being worked on. A NZ744 took off for AKL towards the east and did a real dramatic right turn pretty shortly after take off towards Hawthorne. Then 2 mins later a QF 744 did the same thing. But on the north side ops was still flowing westerly. Then after they both left it returned to normal ops. Really cool to see.


Go big or go home
User currently offlinespeedbrds From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13550 times:

From what I observed today, I saw the Delta A330 taxi from Terminal 5 and travel down towards 25L for a relatively normal departure via taxiway Bravo. As it arrived, from what I could see, at taxiway intersection Foxtrot and Bravo, it held it's position for a while. A bit later, it conducted a U-turn onto Charlie near Charlie 1 and made a slow taxi down to Tango via Charlie. Then after what seem like a long period of time and while intermittently occupying myself with something else, I heard the engines spool up and taxied onto 7L with an immediate departure made its way down 7L.

This entire procedure seemed to last for about 20 to 30 minutes. I could be wrong on timing. Yes, the Santa Ana's are blowin'; winds were around 8-10 knts with gusts at around 15+ knts. However, that did not seem to be prevalent for the majority of departures/arrivals.



spd


User currently offlinetriple7man From Thailand, joined May 2005, 763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13076 times:
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Several years ago I was at LAX and I saw the same thing...a DL MD-11 taking off for NRT to the east. It was the only plane I saw doing this, and I'm not sure why. It would seem to me it's more economical to take off to the west.
And another time I was flying AA DFW-LAX to connect to CX LAX-HKG. It was cloudy and when we broke out of the clouds later I noticed we were landing to the east. And when we took off for HKG later we used 7L for takeoff. All takeoffs and landings were to the east.



Have you kissed a 777 today?
User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1835 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12600 times:

This has got to the aircraft performance from time to time, especially on long range flights where performace/ ground clearence / single engine procedures require ir. In this case it was the tailwind that was a problem. You can bump off pax and cargo if you want to leave a tailwind, but at the same time you can take off towards the wind and not leave anyone/thing behind.


Earthbound misfit I
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11218 times:

Remember airplanes flying east are going into strong head winds. So they will be heavier than most other airplanes. If there is a sudden wind changing direction, and the heavy airplane needs a headwind, it will request to take off from the opposite end where it will be flying into the wind.

User currently offlinehamad From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1161 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9401 times:

i have seen this happen, years ago, at DCA.. it was a northwest DC-9, all the take offs were from runway 01.. however northwest took off from runway 18, then the rest of the airplanes kept taking off from 01 again..


PHX - i miss spotting
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9147 times:

Quoting DLATL777 (Thread starter):
taking off to the east! As soon as it lifted off, it turned south (not North!).

The reason why they would have turned South immediately was, one to avoid the flow of inbound traffic and second, most likely the first fix was most likely SLI (Seal Beach) so it would seem to be a bit more of a dramatic turn as opposed to departing to the west. I will have to ask a friend of mine who works at SOCAL if that's right and if he may have worked it.

FX1816


User currently offlineArcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9090 times:
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Don't forget, airliners are limited in the amount of tailwind they are allowed to have
on take-off AND landing. Always a factor.
I noticed this past February around 2 AM they were "over water" according to the controller.
Landing on 24/6 Left and right and taking off on the 25/7 Left and right.Both procedures
designed to keep the planes over the ocean. Pretty neat way to use the runways.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10352 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8185 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 14):
Remember airplanes flying east are going into strong head winds. So they will be heavier than most other airplanes.

Airplanes flying west are generally flying into strong headwinds (at least, in the northern hemisphere). The jetstream blows from west to east. That's why an LAX-BOS flight is usually around 45 minutes shorter than BOS-LAX.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8068 times:

Quoting Archer (Reply 17):
I noticed this past February around 2 AM they were "over water" according to the controller.
Landing on 24/6 Left and right and taking off on the 25/7 Left and right. Both procedures designed to keep the planes over the ocean. Pretty neat way to use the runways.

Thats a late night procedure for noise abatement to be a good neighbor not due to winds or aircraft performance issues.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6200 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 2):

Exactly! NW (delta) has same the same thing in San Francisco with a slight breeze from the east



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineaa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7983 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Thats a late night procedure for noise abatement to be a good neighbor not due to winds or aircraft performance issues.

After 12am I think is when ops switches. I took the last DFW-LAX flight one night. I think it landed at 12:35am or so, we landed on the north side, coming in from the west. While the south side was taking off toward the west.



Go big or go home
User currently offlinemrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7769 times:

This wasn't localized to just LAX, either. I departed out of BUR Monday afternoon and returned last night.. both the departures and arrivals occurred on rwy 33 (they normally occur out of rwy 15 with a climbing turn to 210). I've flown out of here hundreds of times, but that was a first. The turn to final was performed within 3 miles of the threshold and the crew flew the VASI right on down.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1392 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7583 times:

I remember this occuring quite frequently (use to live in El Segundo) on some late eve departures recently as well as years ago. I recall seeing the Qantas 744s doing this, a few Asian carriers recently & years ago Hawaii bound DL L10's, Qantas 747's and a few other carriers and DL MD 11's bound for Narita use to do this frequently.


Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently onlinephllax From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

Could also be that their anti-skid was inop, and with the slight tail-wind they had using 25R, they had to go out to the East. This happened to us a few years back on a 757 to SLC. Except this was at 7am, and after waiting by the threshold of 6R for 30 minutes, ATC told the pilot they couldn't get the ARRIVALS flowed to work us out, so twe went back to the gate and they cancelled. You would think departures would have been the issues, not arrivals.

User currently offlineMDW22L31C From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 218 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (4 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

I was on the 6am UA flight LAX to Denver 3 week ago we took off on one of LAX south runways to the west. After we were up in the air over the ocean I was that LAX north runways planes landed to the east. I was tail of a Qantas 747 on final and 4 more landing lights in the distance. UA Channel 9 I overheard traffic control telling the Qantas that a 767 was taking off on the south runway.

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