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CO F/A's Reject New Contract  
User currently offlineadxmatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 952 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10377 times:

I guess this will slow down an integrated contract.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ts-reject-new-contract-raises.html


"It became clear the flight attendants prefer a complete agreement that provides full recovery of items sacrificed in the previous round of concessionary bargaining, such as sick leave, vacation and 401(k) match,” Tim Higginbotham, president of IAM District Lodge 142 at Continental, said in the statement.

The union has notified Continental that it is ready to resume bargaining immediately, he said.


I can see the good and the bad of this.... what is your thoughts?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10330 times:

If the voting statistics in the article are correct I'm wondering why nobody voted. A 55 percent win with only 61 percent eligible voting. Sounds like most don’t care one way or the other.

User currently offlineairborne1 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting junction (Reply 1):

The reason the low turn out on voting was because you have to vote at one of the 3 bases IAH/CLE/EWR

Many on COLA Leave or out on medical and didn't vote because of the distance to the voting lodge.

Hope this clears up it Junction..


User currently offlinecoewrcrew From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9557 times:

In addition to having to vote at either EWR, CLE, or IAH in person, less than one week was given between the time the contract in full was presented to the f/a group and the time the voting began. I am hearing that EWR overwhelmingly voted it down, while the other bases were more or less 50/50. Contrary to what "Junction" stated above, this contract negotiation has been a very hot topic at work and we definitely care. Unfortunately, more than 2/3rd of EWR based f/a's live outside the NY/NJ area, and voting in person was just not doable for many. We'll see what the company comes back with?

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9506 times:

I think this is an interesting test case because while I don't support the "getting back" the pay rate you might have given up as a concession, mostly because that always assumes that the rate you were getting wasn't ever out of whack with the market sustainable rate, restoring things like forgone sick leave, vacation and 401k are reasonable requests. To me, those are truly temporary cuts, while salary reductions often reflect the "new reality" in the industry.

CO is turning a profit on the back of fees (or did before it became UA), and they can now consider returning some of these cuts.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1181 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9344 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 4):
CO is turning a profit on the back of fees (or did before it became UA), and they can now consider returning some of these cuts.

Not only on the back of fees but on the backs of their employees. These cuts that were taken as a part of the concessionary agreements allowed them to return to profitability as well.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9309 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 5):
Not only on the back of fees but on the backs of their employees. These cuts that were taken as a part of the concessionary agreements allowed them to return to profitability as well.

Sort of. My point was, that without the fees, the cuts actually only allowed them to break even or operate at a small loss. The airline didn't become profitable from the cuts. They became solvent. In the former reality of the industry, the cuts were necessary to survive.

But the airline has found a new revenue stream, and that means that some of that revenue can go to the employee benefit restoration.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5077 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

I think it is time that both the companies and unions in this industry sit down in a large room, and work this crap out. I mean, I seriously think a big convention of sorts perhaps. As far as CO is concerned, I think that it would be in all of the F/A's best interest to vote. Can they not mail in their ballots? It sends out mixed signals when you have a low turnout on voting. Just my opinions of course. The union obviously is failing at getting out and talking to its people. The union should have been all over trying to encourage voting.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):


Sort of. My point was, that without the fees, the cuts actually only allowed them to break even or operate at a small loss. The airline didn't become profitable from the cuts. They became solvent. In the former reality of the industry, the cuts were necessary to survive.

So the profits CAL made in 2006-2007 right after they threatened bankruptcy and achieved concessions from all the employees including freezing the pensions of the pilots on property and eliminating pensions from future pilots was some sort of fluke? There were no bag fees nor food for purchase in 2006-2007.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
As far as CO is concerned, I think that it would be in all of the F/A's best interest to vote. Can they not mail in their ballots? It sends out mixed signals when you have a low turnout on voting. Just my opinions of course

The FA's had to go to a base to vote. They could not mail in ballots or do it online for whatever reason. I am not sure if that is a function of how their union does the voting or what. Further, I don't think they had a lot of time from the announcement of the TA to the closing of the voting. There are many FA's out on leave of absence, sick leave, etc. I don't think a lot of those types had much chance to get to a base to vote.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1181 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6200 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sort of. My point was, that without the fees, the cuts actually only allowed them to break even or operate at a small loss. The airline didn't become profitable from the cuts. They became solvent. In the former reality of the industry, the cuts were necessary to survive.

But the airline has found a new revenue stream, and that means that some of that revenue can go to the employee benefit restoration.

No, not "sort of". Completely. The airline started taking from the employees before they ever started tacking on extra fees and taking amenities away from the customers. It is as much because of the employee concessions as the new revenue streams that the airlines are making money. Of course that probably offends your anti employee sensibilities but it is what it is. Don't try to pretend like the customers are the only ones getting the short end of the stick here - the employees were getting it long before the customers.


User currently offlinejunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5958 times:

Was wondering what the thinking is with this negotiation. Is the idea to get all previous benefits back at CO and then get together with the UA union to decide who has a better deal? Also, what if no agreement is reached between CO and mgmt before it becomes necessary to get CO and UA on one contract?

User currently offlinegoldenstate From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 573 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5915 times:

Quoting junction (Reply 11):
Was wondering what the thinking is with this negotiation. Is the idea to get all previous benefits back at CO and then get together with the UA union to decide who has a better deal? Also, what if no agreement is reached between CO and mgmt before it becomes necessary to get CO and UA on one contract?

It appears to me that the thinking is to be strong, take a hard line, and build a case as to why IAM should be the sole representative of the combined UACO flight attendant group.

There is going to be some labor friction in this merger. Probably not enough to do serious damage, but there will be some bumps.


User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5897 times:

Agreed ASFlyer. Larry and company took record bonuses that were based on certain increases in revenue etc. while the employees got pennies on the dollar in the form of "profit sharing" that in most cases, didn't come close to bringing the w-2's of the individual employees close to their pre- concessionary levels. The senior management bonuses were close to if not the highest in Continental history while the employees were working at reduced wages. We had senior captains who lost over $500,000 in their pension values being asked to stand on stage with senior officers celebrating profit sharing day. These guys were getting around 10K in profit sharing checks after losing about a half million in concessions and being told they were lucky to be participating in "profit sharing" while Larry and Jeff were raking in 4-6 million in bonuses. Tell those guys that the profits Continental made during that time were based on baggage fees....see what type of reaction you get.


That being said, Larry and Jeff would have been stupid to not take advantage of the economic environment and the bankruptcies at U.S. Airways(2) Delta, NWA, and United in order to win concessions from employees. Heck, the unionized groups gave back in record time. You never see increases in contracts take place in mere months do you? We(pilots, FA's, Mechanics, dispatchers) worked out concessionary contracts in mere months in order to help out our company. Now that times are good, the company wants to drag out negotiations once again in order to reap the rewards of lower labor costs as long as possible. Problem is, this merger is going to get ugly if the employees(union and non union) aren't taken care of quickly. Delta management did it right. Will UAL? Time will tell.

[Edited 2010-10-28 09:50:34]


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlinejunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5759 times:

Quoting iaherj (Reply 13):
Now that times are good, the company wants to drag out negotiations once again

Most of what you say makes sense except for this above. The union did come to an agreement with the company already.


User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5688 times:

I know what you are thinking junction but look at it this way. They came to a quick agreement and offered increases in wages that don't even bring the FA's back to where they were based on inflation. The company wanted to lock in what is basically a continued concessionary contract for our FA's for another 2 years. This would place them ahead of where UAL's FA's stand on compensation in the hopes that the UAL FA's would go for merging the contracts and become members of the IAM since the IAM did so well for the CAL FA's. Of course the IAM sent this TA out for a vote. If the FA's jumped on it the IAM is insured of another 2 years worth of dues and a seat at the table again when the FA's work on a joint contract. Unions are not always just looking out for the employees they represent. They have become institutions themselves. A quick look at the current ALPA tells the story of a bureaucracy that represents pilots of opposing interests(regional and major) and is just trying to exists to serve those within the bureaucracy.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5621 times:

For what it's worth, it looks as if the FA's will work out their representation issues first, then work out a joint agreement with UAL for the combined group. It will be at least 18 months before that happens according to most reports. I'm far from an expert on this so I will gladly defer to a FA or someone with better knowledge on this issue. I admit I'm getting second hand information here regarding the FA deal.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlinejunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5593 times:

Quoting iaherj (Reply 15):
I know what you are thinking junction but look at it this way. They came to a quick agreement and offered increases in wages that don't even bring the FA's back to where they were based on inflation. The company wanted to lock in what is basically a continued concessionary contract for our FA's for another 2 years. This would place them ahead of where UAL's FA's stand on compensation in the hopes that the UAL FA's would go for merging the contracts and become members of the IAM since the IAM did so well for the CAL FA's. Of course the IAM sent this TA out for a vote. If the FA's jumped on it the IAM is insured of another 2 years worth of dues and a seat at the table again when the FA's work on a joint contract. Unions are not always just looking out for the employees they represent. They have become institutions themselves. A quick look at the current ALPA tells the story of a bureaucracy that represents pilots of opposing interests(regional and major) and is just trying to exists to serve those within the bureaucracy.

Thanks. That sheds some light on things.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5533 times:

Quoting iaherj (Reply 13):
Agreed ASFlyer. Larry and company took record bonuses that were based on certain increases in revenue etc.

Larry compensation is irrelevant. Larry gets paid according to what the board thinks it is necessary to retain him. That is, what other companies may offer to attract him. It does not even matter if you think the system for setting CxO compensation is rigged. Maybe it is.

In the end F/A compensation is a very big line item. CO needs to make sure it is in most aspects comparable to F/A compensation at other airlines. Unless the F/As at CO can demonstrate that they can bring substantially more revenue than others.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineusa330300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5510 times:

Simply vote out the union and set up a F/A committee much the same as DAL. This is a much better method, and rids everyone of the union thuggery, while creating an even better work environment. Unfortunately the unions take a roll as "us vs. management." When in fact all (or most) employees, management and union alike, want a profitable company that will provide job security for years to come. At the same time employees want an conducive work environment that provides a fair wage for the work being done.

User currently offlinehiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2175 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Unions are the result of poor management...real or perceived.

User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 903 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting usa330300 (Reply 19):
and rids everyone of the union thuggery

What "thuggery" are you referring to? Do you know of some examples? I think everyone here
would like to learn about them.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 20):
Unions are the result of poor management...real or perceived.

How does that explain all of the unions at WN? Has WN been poorly managed into being one of the most unionized carriers in the U.S.? What probably made WN work has been the revenue sharing, along with consistent growth and no layoffs. DL is one of the least unionized large carriers. Are they best managed large carrier or perceived to be?

Quoting usa330300 (Reply 19):
Unfortunately the unions take a roll as "us vs. management." When in fact all (or most) employees, management and union alike, want a profitable company that will provide job security for years to come. At the same time employees want an conducive work environment that provides a fair wage for the work being done.

Labor vs. management goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Management wants to pay as little for labor as possible and labor wants to get paid as much as possible. Other semi-skilled jobs have been outsourced and Wal-Marted down to working poor levels. Transportation is one of the few industries with strong unions because they cannot be outsourced and they can disrupt the business with a strike. Profitable companies benefit management and owners. Labor does not care if the company is profitable as long as it does not go out of business.


User currently offlineiaherj From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 22):

Labor vs. management goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Management wants to pay as little for labor as possible and labor wants to get paid as much as possible. Other semi-skilled jobs have been outsourced and Wal-Marted down to working poor levels. Transportation is one of the few industries with strong unions because they cannot be outsourced and they can disrupt the business with a strike. Profitable companies benefit management and owners. Labor does not care if the company is profitable as long as it does not go out of business.

You know what, this guy is spot on. As a member of a labor group I should probably take offense but I just can't. This post is the most accurate post in this thread.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 567 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4493 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 18):
Larry compensation is irrelevant. Larry gets paid according to what the board thinks it is necessary to retain him. That is, what other companies may offer to attract him. It does not even matter if you think the system for setting CxO compensation is rigged. Maybe it is.

It is when everybody took a major hit when as soon as Gordon left and Larry came on board as leader......... Ask anybody about the 2005 cuts........

Seniority is going to be a major sticking point in this merger. All of the unionized workgroups will have to vote for unified contracts and one of the major issues IMHO will be seniority (and of course, pay restoration!)

Quoting iaherj (Reply 13):
Problem is, this merger is going to get ugly if the employees(union and non union) aren't taken care of quickly. Delta management did it right. Will UAL? Time will tell.

There's a big difference. Only the pilots are unionized at DL, and there are still representation issues that will be finally settled with the FA's and the ground workers. That makes it a lot easier to settle with everyone.

UA management know that they will have to "grease a lot of wheels" in order for this merger to work. Pilots on both sides will have to settle on the scope issue; FA's & ground workers will have to settle on one union with a strong contracts; the mechanics will have to get their union to unify on a contract; you know the rest.....

2011 will be a very interesting year at the "New United"

Quoting iaherj (Reply 23):
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 22):

Labor vs. management goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Management wants to pay as little for labor as possible and labor wants to get paid as much as possible. Other semi-skilled jobs have been outsourced and Wal-Marted down to working poor levels. Transportation is one of the few industries with strong unions because they cannot be outsourced and they can disrupt the business with a strike. Profitable companies benefit management and owners. Labor does not care if the company is profitable as long as it does not go out of business.

You know what, this guy is spot on. As a member of a labor group I should probably take offense but I just can't. This post is the most accurate post in this thread.

AMEN!!!!



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
25 junction : If this is true then my understanding of all this just went way out in left field. I can understand wanting a bigger piece of the pie, but labor does
26 THEBATMAN : Really? What about what happened at NWA? Mechanics went on strike, and NW replaced them in a heart beat. NWA - "You wanna strike? Go ahead. Buh-bye".
27 iaherj : What he is saying is that historically, labor has not been interested in the profitability of the airline unless it was going to result in concession
28 commavia : The upward pressure on labor costs is definitely in full swing in the airline industry - I suspect this is just the beginning. It will be interesting
29 Squid : Many people on airliners.net know that I am anti-union because I believe they tend to distort and prevent the true market from working. Flight attenda
30 ASFlyer : Blah, blah, blah. If you're not a FA then its not really your business. FA's get what they can command - same as any other job in this country.
31 FlyHossD : Just how would that happen? One of the oldest union axioms is that a company gets the union it deserves. In other words, many airlines have unionized
32 incitatus : That does not mean unions can drive up compensation. In the long run new companies are formed with much lower, market sensible, non-union, compensati
33 DualQual : Transportation (at least airlines) are one of the largest offenders of outsourcing. Where to begin? If you start your trip by calling reservations yo
34 incitatus : Besides outsourcing, there is another kink frequently ignored: Foreign competition. International travel is a growing slice of US carriers' business.
35 flyfree727 : Good for CO f/a's rejecting the companys latest offer which, according to the membership, doest NOT do enough to reinstate concessions giving. Accordi
36 Post contains images commavia : Except, notably enough, AA.
37 flyfree727 : Yes but this thread is regarding CO airlines. Good for them!!! AA is fighting its own battle with its unions, As to not hijack this thread, I'll leav
38 Squid : I take issue with this because the employee's at Continental, as well as all the employee's at all the airlines are referring to their pay and benefi
39 flyfree727 : Since you reference "all the airlines" I'll respond. AA asked for concessions from employees to keep the airline out of BK. To the tune of over 1 bil
40 DualQual : Since there is plenty of money to go around to pay Glen Tilton to basically act as desk scenery for two years and Jeff Smisek can pocket a 60% or so
41 ASFlyer : Well, in that same vain then perhaps the concessions or compensation changes reflecting the new economy should be limited to management since it was
42 ASFlyer : OMG, right?!?! I wonder if these same people get wrapped up in what the cable man makes or the cashier at the local grocery store. Do you think they
43 T5towbar : Management sure hasn't suffered, that's for sure. As I said before, when Larry came on board, all of the cuts started, except his compensation. He mad
44 commavia : No, I don't ask them directly what they make, nor do I ask you or anywhere else here that question. But I do ask how much it's going to cost - for th
45 Squid : You know what makes living in America great? You can go back to school to earn a degree that would allow you to enter management, and eventually with
46 boilerla : I don't know what you mean by this. Several LCCs, including the biggest—WN—have unionized FAs and pilots. The "pre deregulation cost paradigm" do
47 DualQual : Wow, neat. I've already taken advantage of that program, have a degree, and could enter the business world. I don't care how high the ladder is, no C
48 usa330300 : Really? The fact that I have to site examples shows you should stay away from Tuesday's election. I do not want ignorant people voting. Btr anyway I
49 ASFlyer : Sadly, there are many ignorant people voting this time around. Can you say Tea Party Express?
50 Style : ASFlyer, what does your post have to do with this topic? Not sure if your comment is a jab at the tea party or a compliment. Yes sadly there are many
51 flyhossd : I wasn't aware of this example, so thanks for that. More specifically, I was looking for an example in the airline industry. I should have been clear
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