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Air Canada Launches MSY Service  
User currently onlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 51
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

Welcome back to the Big Easy, AC!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AIR-CA...-ONLY-cnw-2182569704.html?x=0&.v=1


Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1030 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

Hmmm guess this compared to the flights that WS have commenced to MSY, three times a week using 737s.... hmmm who will last. My guess is AC due to their smaller aircraft.

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5592 times:

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 1):
My guess is AC due to their smaller aircraft.

My guess is WS due to their much lower unit costs.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5276 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 1):
My guess is AC due to their smaller aircraft.

My guess is WS due to their much lower unit costs.

Not with only 3 flights a week on aircraft that are too large for the market, and with a very poor frequent flyer program and no business class or airport lounges. AC can also offer good connections to YYZ-Europe flights. No same-day connections westbound but they can offer other Star Alliance partner connections in that direction.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
My guess is WS due to their much lower unit costs.

Read it again. It's a Jazz operated service using a CRJ705. They'd give WS a run for their money if they flew three days a week, and will likely slay them by going daily.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Not with only 3 flights a week on aircraft that are too large for the market, and with a very poor frequent flyer program and no business class or airport lounges. AC can also offer good connections to YYZ-Europe flights. No same-day connections westbound but they can offer other Star Alliance partner connections in that direction.

Have you analyzed the market for connections, and EU traffic? Likely not. Let's face it...YYZ-MSY is a marginal low yield leisure market (like it always has been). Most travellers will be leisure with small work related convention traffic on deep discounted tickets. Not a high yield route.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
Read it again. It's a Jazz operated service using a CRJ705.

Correct, whose unit costs are even higher than AC mainline due to smaller aircraft usage. The spoils will likely go to the low cost provider, which is WS. 3x weekly supports the weekend type travel that this market warrants.

Anyway, my money is on WS.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4624 times:

WS should see the "Atlantic City" writing on the wall for this route.   

User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4406 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5):
Correct, whose unit costs are even higher than AC mainline due to smaller aircraft usage. The spoils will likely go to the low cost provider, which is WS. 3x weekly supports the weekend type travel that this market warrants.

Methinks ye paint the MSY market with a very broad brush. New Orleans is certainly not a business hub like New York or Houston, but it ain't Las Vegas either. I'd be very surprised if AC/Jazz/Chorus/whomever didn't do their homework properly this time. It also appears that you're stating as fact the cost structures at Jazz are identical to AC, whereas even the most casual observer will realize they are completely separate entities with very different structures.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5):
Anyway, my money is on WS.

On WS doing what exactly?



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

As is stands now, the WS service is only slated to be seasonal, operating 4 times/week through Apr 29th.

User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

Photo's from MSY's Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=245856&id=133355611002

They also have an album for WS's inaugural service.



Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

New Orleans is very much a seasonal market and quite dependant on convention traffic. Also as UA/AC rationalize routes some good connection possibilities from other centres to MSY might surface that will take some of WS connecting traffic with more direct flights. So instead of flying Winnipeg to YYZ to MSY on WS, you might fly Winnipeg-Chicago-MSY on AC/UA. I just picked those cities out of the air as an example of a possible connection.

User currently onlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3959 times:

Chances are AC would have still been in MSY were it not for the hurricane in '05. They flew there for seven years straight prior to that. With the global connectivity in YYZ on AC, plus a better sized airplane, I think AC's second tenure to MSY will be a long one. WS...I have my doubts that the airline will return next year, but who knows? MSY is a hot market.


Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4765 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3893 times:

I am guessing it wont be a CRJ705 operating this flight very long. With a CPA of .28 per seat mile, they have all but priced themselves out of the market. Air Canada's EMJ pilots have all been issued Jepp charts for MSY, so it wont be long until you see the E175 or E190 doing YYZ-MSY.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 12):
I am guessing it wont be a CRJ705 operating this flight very long. With a CPA of .28 per seat mile, they have all but priced themselves out of the market. Air Canada's EMJ pilots have all been issued Jepp charts for MSY, so it wont be long until you see the E175 or E190 doing YYZ-MSY.

Jazz doesn't "price themselves out" of any market. The CPA was renegotiated by AC and Jazz jointly. However, if you're an AC pilot I can see there would be a bias in favour of that view. And there are more costs involved in flying an a/c than just the pilots' salaries.


User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4765 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 13):
Jazz doesn't "price themselves out" of any market. The CPA was renegotiated by AC and Jazz jointly. However, if you're an AC pilot I can see there would be a bias in favour of that view. And there are more costs involved in flying an a/c than just the pilots' salaries.


Absolutely!

In fact pilot salaries are a very small piece of "the pie" when it comes to costs. That is why it should not come as a surprise that it would cost less to fly an E175 YYZ-MSY by Air Canada than a CRJ705 of Jazz, even though the Jazz Captain makes about $110,000 a year, vice $140,000 a year for the EMJ Captain at AC.

As for "pricing themselves out of the market", there is probably a reason the Toronto Island flying went to SkyRegional airlines instead of Jazz, even though both will fly the Q400.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
Chances are AC would have still been in MSY were it not for the hurricane in '05. They flew there for seven years straight prior to that. With the global connectivity in YYZ on AC, plus a better sized airplane, I think AC's second tenure to MSY will be a long one. WS...I have my doubts that the airline will return next year, but who knows? MSY is a hot market.

Yes and YYZ to MSY was my very last AC DC9 flight during that time.


User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 14):
Absolutely!

In fact pilot salaries are a very small piece of "the pie" when it comes to costs. That is why it should not come as a surprise that it would cost less to fly an E175 YYZ-MSY by Air Canada than a CRJ705 of Jazz, even though the Jazz Captain makes about $110,000 a year, vice $140,000 a year for the EMJ Captain at AC.

As for "pricing themselves out of the market", there is probably a reason the Toronto Island flying went to SkyRegional airlines instead of Jazz, even though both will fly the Q400.


Huh? As you point out AC pilots cost quite a bit more than Jazz ones. Add a similar if not greater difference in FO pay (don't Jazz FO's start out in the $30k range?) plus similarly lower wages for FA's, groomers, maintenance, are you seriously trying to argue AC has a lower cost structure than Jazz? Top it off with the fact the CRJ 705 is more fuel efficient than the E175 and your argument doesn't hold up.

As to Sky Regional, why would you expect Jazz to enter into a lowball contract for flying that would strain their capacity to serve Thomas Cook, and will very likely disappear once Porter has been driven out of business?


User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 804 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 16):
Add a similar if not greater difference in FO pay (don't Jazz FO's start out in the $30k range?) plus similarly lower wages for FA's, groomers, maintenance, are you seriously trying to argue AC has a lower cost structure than Jazz? Top it off with the fact the CRJ 705 is more fuel efficient than the E175 and your argument doesn't hold up.

FO's at AC start in the low to mid 30K range as well (I know this because my cousin is an FO on the ERJ. He was offered the right seat on the 763 when he joined AC three years ago because his in his previous employment he was a Captain on a private Citation X. He told me the starting pay was the same on the 763 as it was on the ERJ. He chose the ERJ so he would be home with his wife and kids more).
As for Jazz maintenance, they are close if not the same pay rates as AC AME's. I have heard some AC AME's leave AC to go to Jazz due to similar pay and in some cases better work environments. As for FA's I don't know what the pay rates for Jazz is compared to AC. Groomers and ground handling is mainly done by AC apart from a few smaller stations. Even then, at the Jazz stations, a Jazz ground handler makes the same as an AC ground handler.
So apart from some wage differences between AC and Jazz pilots, there is not much difference between other employee groups. That's mainly why Jazz has higher operating costs than AC.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 17):
Groomers and ground handling is mainly done by AC apart from a few smaller stations. Even then, at the Jazz stations, a Jazz ground handler makes the same as an AC ground handler.
So apart from some wage differences between AC and Jazz pilots, there is not much difference between other employee groups. That's mainly why Jazz has higher operating costs than AC.

Don't think that's true. I heard Jazz has their own groomers in YVR, so I assume its the same in other large stations. As to ground handling, there was a court case several years ago when they were trying to reduce former AC employees at Jazz stations to the Jazz rate of pay, so I assume the Jazz pay is much lower.


User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4765 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 16):
Huh? As you point out AC pilots cost quite a bit more than Jazz ones. Add a similar if not greater difference in FO pay (don't Jazz FO's start out in the $30k range?) plus similarly lower wages for FA's, groomers, maintenance, are you seriously trying to argue AC has a lower cost structure than Jazz? Top it off with the fact the CRJ 705 is more fuel efficient than the E175 and your argument doesn't hold up.



It costs AC around 0.14 per seat mile to send an E175, and 0.28 per seat mile to send a CRJ705. It doesn't really matter what each company pays the employees, its all about costs, and the bottom line is that AC mainline is cheaper than Jazz on a seat mile basis.

If Jazz pays their employees less, and that excess goes to Management and the Jazz Fund, so be it, but the bottom line is still the bottom line. So the point I am making is that even though Jazz pays their employees less, they still cost AC more!

You have probably heard about the enhanced trans-border Joint Venture with UA and CO, and a lot of people are wondering ... "so what's new?". One of the very subtle changes is that trans-border flying currently flown by Jazz no longer has to. And CO or UA can supply their own regional carriers for the code share flights. Why would they? The 0.28 per seat mile cost is a start. So even within the confines of the CPA you will likely see less flying for AC by Jazz.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 804 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 18):
As to ground handling, there was a court case several years ago when they were trying to reduce former AC employees at Jazz stations to the Jazz rate of pay, so I assume the Jazz pay is much lower.

When the last contract negots were done back in 2008, ground handlers at Jazz stations (ie: YFC, YSJ, YYG, YQM,etc) all reverted back to their previous AC wages. If a new Jazz station was opened in recent years and Jazz employees were hired, then they might be at a lower wage scale, but former AC stations like those listed above were reduced to Jazz stations after CCAA and thus AC employees there went to Jazz wages. That has however, changed. Those places are still Jazz stations, but with AC employees making AC wages.
Jazz may have their own groomers in larger stations like YVR, YYZ, etc, but if I recall, the ground handling is done by AC employees.



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

Quoting Longhauler (Reply 19):
It costs AC around 0.14 per seat mile to send an E175, and 0.28 per seat mile to send a CRJ705. It doesn't really matter what each company pays the employees, its all about costs, and the bottom line is that AC mainline is cheaper than Jazz on a seat mile basis.

If Jazz pays their employees less, and that excess goes to Management and the Jazz Fund, so be it, but the bottom line is still the bottom line. So the point I am making is that even though Jazz pays their employees less, they still cost AC more!

You have probably heard about the enhanced trans-border Joint Venture with UA and CO, and a lot of people are wondering ... "so what's new?". One of the very subtle changes is that trans-border flying currently flown by Jazz no longer has to. And CO or UA can supply their own regional carriers for the code share flights. Why would they? The 0.28 per seat mile cost is a start. So even within the confines of the CPA you will likely see less flying for AC by Jazz.

Yet AC was the one who negotiated the CPA, as the senior partner. What does that say for their negotiating skills? The .28 per seat mile is an artificial cost, which AC helped entrench.

As to there being less flying for Jazz, according to their investor statements, that same CPA guarantees Jazz a minimum amount of block hours, so its unclear to see how AC can reduce that amount of flying.

Forgive me if I seem skeptical of your claims, yet everyone who follows aviation in Canada knows the Air Canada pilots group has been out to "get" Jazz, and before that their predecessor regionals, for a very, very long time. If anything, your statements only seem to reveal it was extremely foolish of AC to give up control of Jazz, when they could have taken advantage of its true costs (vs CPA costs), which are lower than that of AC mainline.


User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 453 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

I believe Jazz was set up to attract investment funds since the mainline carrier was unable to do so after so many stockholders got burnt with AC shares (myself included).
Since the Jazz trust unit essentially guaranteed a high yield to investors it had to be built into the Jazz costs that were passed on to AC. These high costs are essentially due to the inability of AC to raise capital on their own anymore resulting in an an artificially high financing charge built into Jazz's operations.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 11):
With the global connectivity in YYZ on AC, plus a better sized airplane, I think AC's second tenure to MSY will be a long one.

There is virtually no connectivity to the southbound YYZ-MSY flight except from a few points in the immediate vicinity of YYZ.


User currently offlineLonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4765 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 21):
Yet AC was the one who negotiated the CPA, as the senior partner. What does that say for their negotiating skills? The .28 per seat mile is an artificial cost, which AC helped entrench.


For years, Air Canada Connector/Jazz were a convenient place to "hide cash". A profit at Jazz was a profit at AC. Then, when ACE aviation decided to "remove" equity from AC, that the public and the Canadian taxpayer put into the company during the previous decades, it became essential to make Jazz "look good" for investors. That very lucrative CPA was a way to do just that. Then those that negotiated the CPA, took off with the proceeds of the sale of Jazz.

Quoting multimark (Reply 21):
As to there being less flying for Jazz, according to their investor statements, that same CPA guarantees Jazz a minimum amount of block hours, so its unclear to see how AC can reduce that amount of flying.


That is entirely correct, the actual minimum number of hours is cast in stone. However, presently that number is exceeded ... so I see two things happening. The numbers will be reduced to the minimum. Also while AC continues to grow, using other sources as a regional feed the Jazz/AC ratio will continue to drop while the Regional/AC ratio stays the same.

The only thing that can change the CPA would be CCAA. And that threat alone is what made Jazz reduce hours and renegotiate the CPA in the last few years.

Quoting multimark (Reply 21):
Forgive me if I seem skeptical of your claims, yet everyone who follows aviation in Canada knows the Air Canada pilots group has been out to "get" Jazz, and before that their predecessor regionals, for a very, very long time. If anything, your statements only seem to reveal it was extremely foolish of AC to give up control of Jazz, when they could have taken advantage of its true costs (vs CPA costs), which are lower than that of AC mainline.


With the recently released 3rd quarter results, AC's mainline costs are 0.147 per seat mile. The CPA is 0.28 per seat mile. The only cost advantage Jazz offers is a "per airplane" cost on very small aircraft.

A third of AC's pilots have been hired in the last 9 years, a lot from Jazz itself, and half in the last 15 years. Rest assured, most don't give a damn what Jazz's pilots are doing, let alone being "out to get them". (that is funny!) There is however a small faction that remember the old "Air Ontario" days with bitterness. Much like there are some old "Air Ontario" dinosaurs kicking around Jazz right now. To most of us that is water under the bridge, and just like we ignore these old guys, I imagine they are ignored on the Jazz side as well.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Post contains images multimark : I must say I'm surprised that a union member would apparently be celebrating contracting out to a low-cost non-union outfit. I wouldn't think that wo
26 longhauler : No one is celebrating, and once again I have to wonder about your thoughts of an "Anti-Jazz" sentiment within the ranks of Air Canada Pilots. It simp
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