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Only 2 Daily Flights Between Paris And Brussels?  
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 3004 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15368 times:

Is this true? All I could find for two random dates in February were two daily morning flights on Brussels Airlines on the CDG-BRU route; both served with Boeing 737-400 equipment. Air France does not fly to BRU and there is no service to Paris from CRL. It's hard to believe considering these are two major capitals in Europe. I realise that geographically these two cities are relatively close together but are there any other reasons for the lack of air service? Is it because high-quality/high-speed rail service is more convenient?


Shannon-Chicago
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15356 times:

Rail by Thalys is much faster by the time u factor in traveling time to CDG/ORY and BRU. Too many cities in Europe are already so close to warrant flight service other than international connections.

Even HND-ITM is now a much smaller form of its former self. Ditto for LON-PAR, GVA-LYS.... etc


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15294 times:

the train (TGV) is much more convinient. Bigger seats, walk around,internet, good meals, local train stations.



User currently offlineSamuP From Colombia, joined Jul 2010, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15169 times:

Plus, Thalys prices are very reasonable when bought in advance. I believe the trip takes only 1 hour from Paris Nord to Brussel Zuid.

User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 15125 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
Rail by Thalys is much faster by the time u factor in traveling time to CDG/ORY and BRU.
Quoting keesje (Reply 2):
the train (TGV) is much more convinient. Bigger seats, walk around,internet, good meals, local train stations.

I was going to suggest that for transfer traffic from CDG tro BRU, a more frequent air link would make more sense, but I looked it up and Thalys comes RIGHT to CDG airport. So that kills the air traffic right there.

As it should be. We should have such trains at least in our crowded Northeast corridor, and between L.A. and San Fran. European infrastructure is so far ahead.



I come in peace
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 15088 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

About 10 years ago, Air France stopped flying CDG-BRU and worked with Thalys, a high speed train company in Europe, to offer their customers connections to Brussels. Yes I remember back in the 90s when both Sabena and Air France were still flying CDG-BRU with B737 equipment.

The only reason SN still flies CDG-BRU is to encourage French people to fly with them to Africa, or other points in Europe. Who's gonna buy an airplane ticket CDG-BRU one-way or roundtrip? Nobody.

What I don't understand is why KLM is still flying BRU-AMS with multiple frequency each day as there is a lot of rail service to Schiphol.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 15050 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 5):

What I don't understand is why KLM is still flying BRU-AMS with multiple frequency each day as there is a lot of rail service to Schiphol.

The high speed rail link between AMS and Brussels is still not operational. Travelling by normal train is not so fast (2.5hours) and the Thalys also takes around 2 hours. Thus for many not time efficient


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 14847 times:

I traveled a lot between Amsterdam and Paris, first by air then switched to train. The longer travel times in the train can be used well though, contrary to the waiting times and lines everywhere in air travel.

The french influence makes sure the wine and food is uncompromised. I believe Eurostar is similar. The prices are relatively low, even in First. I guess a lot of public money goes into this..



User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 14831 times:

Sadly for those of us in the UK the indecision of successive Governments has meant that we still don't have anything like a viable high speed train network that could allow many domestic flights to be dropped in favour of rail like the example of Paris - Brussels and Madrid - Barcelona.

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 14794 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 6):
The high speed rail link between AMS and Brussels is still not operational. Travelling by normal train is not so fast (2.5hours) and the Thalys also takes around 2 hours. Thus for many not time efficient

Actually, in the current situation, the Thalys is almost running at it's highest possible speed. Amsterdam Central - Paris Nord is now 3:18 and Amsterdam - Brussel South is 1:54. The only segment that will be improved is Schiphol - Rotterdam, but this will only cut 5 more minutes from the total travel time. So in the final situation, Ams-Par Nord will be 3:13, and Ams-Bru South will be 1:49. The only improvement that's still to be made, is to increase the speed on the Amsterdam - Rotterdam segment from 160 km/h to 250 or 300 km/h. They can't do it now, as domestic train still run at 160 km/h on the route, so the Thalys can't effectively run faster.

AMS (Schiphol railway station) - Brussel South is now 1:39 on Thalys (the train route is Amsterdam Central - AMS airport - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussel South - Paris Nord), and this will become 1:34.

KLM is already reducing capacity on AMS-BRU, and offering connections with the train. However, for some reason, when trying to book from ZYR (Brussels South) on klm.com, tickets on the regular trains (2:35 travel time) are offered rather than Thalys. For W10 and S11, it looks like KL will fly AMS-BRU 5x daily on F70, whereas the last years, also E190s and F100s were used.

KLM is not participating in Thalys, but it holds a 10% share in the NS HiSpeed project, which will run trains on Amsterdam-Brussels using new V250 equipment, but the delivery of these trains is postponed over and over again. They were schedule for delivery in 2007, but now it seems like it will be 2011...


User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 14795 times:

I would add that the London-Brussels route at under 2h by high-speed train is also a hit as far as we're concerned.


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 14774 times:

Out of curiosity, if one were to fly, say, to BRU via CDG on AF/Thalys, will your luggage be transferred to the train?

Quoting theginge (Reply 8):
Sadly for those of us in the UK the indecision of successive Governments has meant that we still don't have anything like a viable high speed train network that could allow many domestic flights to be dropped in favour of rail like the example of Paris - Brussels and Madrid - Barcelona.

Same here in the U.S. If you connected HSR at ATL, for example, an airline like DL could just put their code on the train and a number of city pairs in the Southeast could be dropped. You would increase airport capacity without ever having to build a runway/gate.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1872 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14531 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 11):
Out of curiosity, if one were to fly, say, to BRU via CDG on AF/Thalys, will your luggage be transferred to the train?

no. You have to collect your bags at CDG

The train station is right in the middle of CDG terminal 2, below the Sheraton hotel. So it's a very convenient and fast connection from air to train or vice-versa. AF puts its code on the train segment, so you can buy a combined ticket XXX-CDG-ZYR, all AF-coded. Trip on-board the Thalys is always in 1st class, irrespective of your class of travel for the air segment. At ZYR, AF has a rather big Agency for ticketing and check-in. Duration of the trip CDG-ZYR is 1h10 min, so no wonder why there is no more flights.

Quoting SamuP (Reply 3):
I believe the trip takes only 1 hour from Paris Nord to Brussel Zuid.

actually, it's 1h20 min


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14387 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting joost (Reply 9):
KLM is not participating in Thalys,

Yes they are, although you don't get FF miles on the rail segment unlike with Air France. You can book a trip through KLM's website from Antwerp Central rail station to anywhere KLM flies, the rail segment Antwerp-Schipol is Thalys. It is included in your air fare. That's what I did when I flew KLM to IST in 2008, for 200 Euros taxes included.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 3004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14364 times:

Thanks for the answers!

Quoting theginge (Reply 8):
Sadly for those of us in the UK the indecision of successive Governments has meant that we still don't have anything like a viable high speed train network that could allow many domestic flights to be dropped in favour of rail like the example of Paris - Brussels and Madrid - Barcelona.

I would much prefer to fly domestically than take a train - highspeed or otherwise!



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 454 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13993 times:

AMS-BRU record on the F70 is 16 min flight time.

Quoting joost (Reply 9):
AMS (Schiphol railway station) - Brussel South is now 1:39 on Thalys (the train route is Amsterdam Central - AMS airport - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussel South - Paris Nord), and this will become 1:34.

1:34 - 16 min = 1:18 left for check in at BRU. so if you have a connection to take at AMS then taking the plane could stil make sense though if you were to live near brussels south it would make more sense to take the train to schiphol.



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinejamesjoyce From Belgium, joined May 2004, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12588 times:

These flights are necessary for people catching connections at CDG.

For example an 11am flight from Paris requires a Thalys departure in Brussels South at 07.46am. Parking facilities there are nil. That means you have to get there by local train and check-in at the Air France desk by 7am. That means I have to get up at 4am in order to get a train that will get me to Brussels at 06.45 or so.

Plus you have to lug your bagage through a trainstation which is larger than Amsterdam Airport judging by the jms you can walk there.

The BRU-CDG flights do not serve for SN's flights to Africa as they all leave very late in the day, not in the morning.

Other than that, I will never connect in Paris anyway.

And why there's no CRL-CDG service? Only Ryanair flies to CRL, it'll be a cold day in hell before seeing them at CDG.

KL's flights into Brussels are a blessing, they serve excellently to connect to their long-haul network in both directions. Check-in at Brusses is also less of a hassle than in AMS plus you don't have to worry about bagage anymore.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12266 times:

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 14):
I would much prefer to fly domestically than take a train - highspeed or otherwise!

Why? On routes as short and fast as these the train is much more convenient and comfortable. There's no comparison between a first class seat on the high-speed Thalys train and a cramped Y class seat on a flight. Also, if you're connecting at CDG from Brussels, check-in time for the train is only 15 minutes plus the fact that you're leaving from the city center, saving a lot of time. Why anyone would prefer to fly on a sector like that is beyond me when the train is so much more civilized.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
Even HND-ITM is now a much smaller form of its former self. Ditto for LON-PAR, GVA-LYS.... etc

There is no high-speed train service GVA-LYS. There are a few TGV trains that continue beyond LYS to other points in France but they use the regular tracks GVA-LYS which are far from fast. There hasn't been any air service GVA-LYS as long as I can remember. Operating any aircraft on a 53 nm sector would be very uneconomic. It's probably about 80 nm by road or rail.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11960 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

There is no high-speed train service GVA-LYS. There are a few TGV trains that continue beyond LYS to other points in France but they use the regular tracks GVA-LYS which are far from fast. There hasn't been any air service GVA-LYS as long as I can remember. Operating any aircraft on a 53 nm sector would be very uneconomic. It's probably about 80 nm by road or rail.

Plus, unlike BRU and CDG, neither LYS or GVA is a major hub, much reducing the demand (and the two cities are also much smaller). It is basically a 2 hour drive between Geneva and Lyon, downtown to downtown. In which regards train, train links aren't TGV but regional (TGV to GVA from Paris bypasses Lyon through Bourg-en-Bresse), kind of slow and bumpy train ride but they still get you there in less time it would take to check-in, clear security, taxi, etc... No sure why one would fly, except for the pleasure of doing it. Which is not quite the market that airlines target.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11780 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 18):
TGV to GVA from Paris bypasses Lyon through Bourg-en-Bresse, kind of slow and bumpy train ride but they still get you there in less time it would take to check-in, clear security, taxi, etc.

The fastest TGV Paris-GVA takes about 3.5 hours. Depending on the time of day you can often do it that fast or faster (city center to city center) by air, allowing a 1-hour check-in, usually about 45 minutes in the air (block time about 1 hour gate to gate). It also helps that it's only 6 minutes by train from the GVA city center to the airport.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2187 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11475 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Depending on the time of day you can often do it that fast or faster (city center to city center) by air

Have you accounted for the time it takes to get from central Paris to the airport as well? Add in another 15 minutes to wait for baggage on the carousel and the time difference narrows to the point where the price and any 'feel-good' factor for more responsible travel begin to tip the balance towards rail.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25999 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11361 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
Depending on the time of day you can often do it that fast or faster (city center to city center) by air

Have you accounted for the time it takes to get from central Paris to the airport as well? Add in another 15 minutes to wait for baggage on the carousel and the time difference narrows to the point where the price and any 'feel-good' factor for more responsible travel begin to tip the balance towards rail.

I was allowing 60-90 minutes for ground transportation at Paris, and EasyJet serves ORY which is somewhat closer than CDG. A high percentage of O&D GVA-PAR passengers are day-trippers or spending 2 or 3 days with no checked baggage. And even at CDG T2, you can be out of the airport and in a taxi/bus/train quickly after arrival, and with Switzerland now part of Schengen there's no passport control either way.


User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10239 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
The fastest TGV Paris-GVA takes about 3.5 hours.

Starting Dec 12th the TGV Lyria will use a shorter route between Bourg en Bresse and Bellegarde and the Paris to Geneva running time will be down to 3h05.



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlinevincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10089 times:

Same thing happened in Taiwan once High Speed Rail started, domestic flights such as TSA-KHH, TSA-CYI, TSA-TNN, and TSA-RMQ have disappeared. Although AE and GE still run TSA-KHH once a day during weekends. Nowadays, most local and domestic carriers in Taiwan depend on TSA-TTT, flights to outer islands, and cross-straight flights.

Now this leaves me thinking, if there're high speed rail networks out of LHR to Manchester and Scotland, perhaps they can free up a lot of slots for medium and long haul flights.

[Edited 2010-11-01 01:14:33]

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9838 times:

Quoting jamesjoyce (Reply 16):
These flights are necessary for people catching connections at CDG.

Huh? But these flights are SN flights, not AF. They can't be booked on the Air France website. So how does it work? Is it for StarAlliance carriers at CDG? Or is there any interline agreement between SN and AF that can be booked via travel agents?

Quoting vincewy (Reply 23):
Now this leaves me thinking, if there're high speed rail networks out of LHR to Manchester and Scotland, perhaps they can free up a lot of slots for medium and long haul flights.

That's often suggested. For now, the problem seems to be that focus on High-Speed rail in the UK is on serving only the downtown stations, and not linking the high-speed network to LHR. That makes connecting Rail Air very inconvenient.


25 LJ : You probably meant BRU. These flights connect perfectly with SNs departures to Africa (the first flight arrives in BRU at 09:30). Furthermore, SN ope
26 AirIndia : Must be getting some traffic to 9W onward to NA or Subcontinent.
27 varig md-11 : There's a time bomb called RFF (réseau ferré de France): the infrastructure cost has been hidden in this public corporation to which Thalys, SNCF,
28 Post contains images joost : This one is in service, and the Thalys is using it, although at a maximum speed of 160 km/h. The main problem is that the tracked is shared by the Th
29 Post contains images varig md-11 : Thanks for the update Also I believed that since I left Nederland the Traxx locomotives had gone and replaced by the real "Fyra" by Ansaldo Breda...I
30 Post contains links robffm2 : Maybe a little off topic: TAM and Deutsche Bahn have signed a Rail & Fly agreement, allowing customers to buy rail and flight ticket in one go. h
31 TGV : Out of topic, so people only interested in the initial subject, please do not read ! I agree with most of your analysis, except probably the “minim
32 Post contains links keesje : It will be hard to find privat investors to invest tens of billions over decades in public transport infrastructure. Combining it with nucleair power
33 AmricanShamrok : I phrased it CRL to Paris; I didn't specifically mention CDG. I don't know - never been a big fan of trains. Plus I've never experienced highspeed tr
34 Post contains links keesje : BTW I wonder who selected the dutch Fyra model. I and many others think almost all other high speed trains look better. http://www.bndestem.nl/multime
35 Post contains images varig md-11 : I used "minimal" purposedly semi-cynically They do pay a rent which, of course, they consider is expensive: the problem is with these rents, RFF is n
36 Post contains images r2rho : Then I strongly recommend you to do it - it will dramatically change the impression you have of trains.
37 LJ : The V250 trains are already in The Netherlands, but can't run as there are the problems (they foresee that the problems will be over December 2011).
38 Aesma : I also do but that's because I don't get to fly often and I really love it. Also, the two routes I most often fly are not that quick by train, and si
39 Threepoint : It would seem to make sense to many, but a legendary thread on that subject debating high-speed rail in the UK vs a new runway at LHR brings out frot
40 JCS17 : The thought that high-speed rail in the US outside the Northeast Corridor would somehow be profitable, efficient, and not reliant on state-subsidies
41 NYCFlyer : In a similar vein to the Thalys connections - Doesn't Continental book pax on Amtrak from EWR to Stamford and New Haven, CT? I have seen Stamford and
42 Bureaucromancer : Bull. California is about the same density as Spain, whose system has been remarkably successful. If you're so desperate to drive to the station don'
43 janmnastami : Considering that Ansaldo STS years ago won the bid to provide ERTMS level 2 on the LGV Est and on the Madrid-Lleida, I take your statement as a joke
44 Threepoint : Thank you for proving my point. The high-speed rail solution may not work for your individual needs, but apart from the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus t
45 JCS17 : California's cities have a much more undeveloped public transportation grid than most cities in Spain, which is most important. Great... Will I leave
46 yenne09 : The Thalys high speed train that is operating between Paris and Brussels covers the distance in 1 hour 30 minutes from city center to city center. The
47 varig md-11 : Yes it was a joke towards the Dutch who decided to venture into an Ansaldo train because it was the cheapest... But if Ansaldo systems installed ERTM
48 Post contains links joost : With heavily regulated purchasing legislations for companies that are (majority) government-owned, it can be quite difficult to ignore the lowest far
49 Bureaucromancer : Why don't you try the actual timing again? 2 1/2 hours on the train yes, but add to flight time travel to and from the airports in either city, secur
50 Post contains images djb77 : Dear all, Anecdote from me on this: When I lived in Brussels, I traveled by air to Aberdeen, via Amsterdam, on KLM cityhopper (F70) and Air UK on the
51 Aesma : But then I guess they spend their lives commuting. I hate commuting, whatever the means. When I studied in Paris I moved from my parents that live 25
52 a340jamaica : I keep asking the "HSR is useless" people in the US people what happens to airlines and travel demand when oil is $150 to $200 per barrel? If the US
53 sexyadonis : I lived in Brussels between 2001 – 2005 and was a regular on the Thalys as I headed home to Paris on weekends or on my way to CDG to catch an Air Fr
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