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How's The ORD-LGA DL Shuttle Doing?  
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 863 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11967 times:

A recent topic that mysteriously disappeared from the forums brought up a question in my mind; after changing the DL Shuttle from MDW-LGA to ORD-LGA, competing against AA and UA's hourly flights on the same route..can anyone shed some light as to how Delta is doing on these flights? Have they been able to hold their own?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11886 times:

Have no idea about loads, but fares are way down. It's a bit of a bloodbath actually. Right now the kayak.com ad above my post is advertising $140 roundtrip. What's more, one-ways in the $100 range can often be had less than a week out. Great for me, probably sucks for the carriers involved.

User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7530 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11179 times:

I hope DL prevails. I will be living in NYC the next 3 years and I intend to travel to Chicago quite often, as I have friends who live there and I myself lived there several years ago.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10875 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 1):
Have no idea about loads, but fares are way down. It's a bit of a bloodbath actually. Right now the kayak.com ad above my post is advertising $140 roundtrip. What's more, one-ways in the $100 range can often be had less than a week out. Great for me, probably sucks for the carriers involved.

Having WN serving MDW-LGA has only made worse this "bloodbath." Between DL, UA, AA, WN, CO, and B6 all operated Chicago-New York in some form or another, it was going to be a tough fight, one that no single carrier is going to win. I doubt you'll see any of the aforementioned carriers leave the routing, so these cheap airfares will continue, very similar to what has can be seen on many New York-South Florida route pairings.

Jeremy


User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10657 times:

You think this market is bad now......wait until WN starts EWR-MDW service!

Then this route is gonna be even worse cause WN will offer those same super low fares plus no change fees and two free bags per passenger so the leisure passengers will be in heaven


User currently offlineChopChop767 From Italy, joined Aug 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

I flew the route Columbus day weekend, leaving on the 600am flight on Friday morning to LGA and then going up to Boston. Returned on the Monday. I would say the load in F was about 2/3 and the less for y, in both directions. I used miles for the trip hence the routing for Chicago to Boston. That flight I would think would be pretty full given the early departure.
Delta tried a similar service with shuttle America, although not a shuttle service, to jfk from ord. I know that they cut it pretty quickly and they had zero competition on that route. Actually, not certain, perhaps aa does fly that route as well, but I would be surprised if this one sticks around. I realize that the operating cost for the e70 is lower, so perhaps I'm wrong.
Of course it's just a shuttle service, but I'll take ua or aa over dl on this routing any day of the week. I'm glad I burned the miles to sit on a dirty plane, get a cold breakfast and get a nasty look when I ordered a second bloody Mary. Just my two cents.



this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8812 times:

Quoting ChopChop767 (Reply 5):
I would say the load in F was about 2/3 and the less for y, in both directions.

Aren't all of Delta's Shuttle routes low on the Load Factor side though? I thought I heard somewhere that by nature they aren't planned to operate as full flights. Or is that just the LGA-BOS and LGA-DCA shuttes?



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3512 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8695 times:

ORD-LGA is about the lowest fare out of O'Hare right now ... possibly even lower than ORD-MSP, which has been dirt cheap since WN started serving MSP from MDW.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8667 times:
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Quoting dbo861 (Thread starter):
ORD-LGA,

I flew it over the summer and it was just fantastic. I think the fare was $215, and we used the Maritime Terminal, which allows you to be out the in the street in like 10 min, and back at the gate in 5Min from the street.

Its amazing you can get in/out of an airport that quickly!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9385 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8311 times:

I really think DL will be the one to lose. There is no way UA/CO or AA are going to back off one of the highest O/D routes from their 2nd largest hub. They will keep fighting since they need to offer the service to stay competitive. UA and AA are very entrenched in ORD. What DL gives up in ORD, UA gives up at LGA, however UA still has tons of feed for the flight unlike DL which has almost none.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineaajfksjubklyn From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8099 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
Quoting dbo861 (Thread starter):
ORD-LGA,

I flew it over the summer and it was just fantastic. I think the fare was $215, and we used the Maritime Terminal, which allows you to be out the in the street in like 10 min, and back at the gate in 5Min from the street.

Its amazing you can get in/out of an airport that quickly!

Generally in flying this route nearly 12 times a year, my average fare is $216 on AA, and it has been for years at this same level. The most I ever paid was $306, the lowest was $129. All values in RT. My ticket next week is $246.

DL will exit this route. It makes no sense for them-doesnt fit their "plan". Its an odd ball attack on AA and UA only. Same way AA went into Love field.


User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1564 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8063 times:

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 10):
Generally in flying this route nearly 12 times a year, my average fare is $216 on AA, and it has been for years at this same level. The most I ever paid was $306, the lowest was $129. All values in RT. My ticket next week is $246.

DL will exit this route. It makes no sense for them-doesnt fit their "plan". Its an odd ball attack on AA and UA only. Same way AA went into Love field.

I disagree. DL's plan is to capture as much NYC O&D traffic as possible and NYC-CHI is a huge O&D route. The route was in no way started as an attack on AA & UA - in fact, they initially flew LGA-MDW to avoid direct competition with them. Once WN started its LGA service out of MDW, they opted to instead compete with UA & AA at ORD (which is naturally the higher yielding and more business oriented airport in Chicago).

Whether DL may drop the route or not, I don't know, but it won't be because it doesn't fit their "plan."


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7799 times:

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 10):

DL will exit this route. It makes no sense for them-doesnt fit their "plan". Its an odd ball attack on AA and UA only. Same way AA went into Love field.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
I really think DL will be the one to lose. There is no way UA/CO or AA are going to back off one of the highest O/D routes from their 2nd largest hub. They will keep fighting since they need to offer the service to stay competitive. UA and AA are very entrenched in ORD. What DL gives up in ORD, UA gives up at LGA, however UA still has tons of feed for the flight unlike DL which has almost none.

Not surprising, the usual speculation that DL fails on every route they operate. DL's LGA-ORD routing is actually less of a risk to operate than it is for UA and AA, as operating smaller, cheaper E-Jets is much more easy to fly profitably. DL's strategy was to gain a foothold among corporations and business travelers in the New York area, which they wouldn't have been able to do without a sizable presence on NYC-CHI. Operating 15 daily roundtrips each way between JFK/LGA-ORD has allowed DL to serve their customers and any corporate travel contracts DL may have, with 14 daily roundtrips each way with an F cabin, which business travelers demand. I can tell you that loads on DL, UA, AA, WN, B6, and CO are all within similar ranges, and fares are low among all carriers. It's likely that none of the carriers operating NYC-CHI are profitable on this route, but it's crucial to each's operation, which is why they won't be dropping the route.

Jeremy


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7711 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
as operating smaller, cheaper E-Jets is much more easy to fly profitably.

Maybe. What's their CASM like?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7686 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):

Maybe. What's their CASM like?

From what I've read here the E-Jets have one of the best CASMs among regional aircraft, and comparable with many newer mainline aircraft. Don't know how true that is, however, but that's been the consensus here among many posters with knowledge of the subject.

Jeremy


User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1385 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7639 times:

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
Then this route is gonna be even worse cause WN will offer those same super low fares plus no change fees and two free bags per passenger so the leisure passengers will be in heaven

Lol, definitely not many leisure pax on that route!


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7622 times:

Delta will keep the route as it is about more than this route. If they want to be a major player in NYC with corporate contacts, they need to fly this route.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22320 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
and comparable with many newer mainline aircraft. Don't know how true that is, however, but that's been the consensus here among many posters with knowledge of the subject.

It sure has - but it would not shock me to learn that a 738 has a lower CASM either.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 15):
Lol, definitely not many leisure pax on that route!

No, though OTOH the lack of change fees (on WN) is a big draw for business passengers.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7101 times:

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 15):
Lol, definitely not many leisure pax on that route!

Ummmm there is a ridiculous amount of O&D leisure travel on that route or any route with that large populations of cities and that low fares. Have you ever seen how many people live in those cities and have friends, family etc between them or vacation. The low fares bring out the leisure travelers even more. I have visited my friends in Chi town twice this year cause the prices were so low, why not. Even someone on this board posted about wanting to visit friends. There is no way on Earth that many people are traveling for business people to fill hourly UA, AA, and DL plus CO, B6 and WN from multiple airports in the NYC area and two in Chicago.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
I hope DL prevails. I will be living in NYC the next 3 years and I intend to travel to Chicago
quite often, as I have friends who live there and I myself lived there several years ago.


User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3512 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
It sure has - but it would not shock me to learn that a 738 has a lower CASM either.

Yes, when full. However, DL is running 13 flights a day on E-170s, each with less than 70 seats, which means they don't need to attract as many pax to get a full aircraft. And considering the E-Jets cheaper labor and slightly cheaper operating costs (minus labor), they're probably doing OK.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineORDFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6889 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
I hope DL prevails. I will be living in NYC the next 3 years and I intend to travel to Chicago quite often, as I have friends who live there and I myself lived there several years ago.

Not sure if I want DL to "prevail" but I love having a ton of seats on CHI-NYC; I like that they are targeting this route as it keeps the fares low/competitive. I make the trip to NYC at least a dozen times a year and it nice to have fares in the $200 dollar range.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
You think this market is bad now......wait until WN starts EWR-MDW service!

Then this route is gonna be even worse cause WN will offer those same super low fares plus no change fees and two free bags per passenger so the leisure passengers will be in heaven

Funny, you mention that, I took WN from MDW-LGA for the first time last week for $225 (same day depart/return). The trip to MDW from downtown is much faster (and smoother) on the orange line than to ORD on the blue. I was the second to last person to board and I got the second to last seat left (every seat was filled). Overall, I gotta give WN and MDW credit -- it was a good experience, though I would pay more to board earlier next time. What do you mean that the market is bad? Yields or prices? Every time I've flown CHI-NYC on CO, UA, AA, or most recently, WN, the planes are packed.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 18):
Ummmm there is a ridiculous amount of O&D leisure travel on that route or any route with that large populations of cities and that low fares. Have you ever seen how many people live in those cities and have friends, family etc between them or vacation. The low fares bring out the leisure travelers even more. I have visited my friends in Chi town twice this year cause the prices were so low, why not. Even someone on this board posted about wanting to visit friends. There is no way on Earth that many people are traveling for business people to fill hourly UA, AA, and DL plus CO, B6 and WN from multiple airports in the NYC area and two in Chicago.

Agree with nearly everything you said. Yes there is a lot of leisure traffic and CHI and NYC both have large numbers of transplants from each other city. But there are a ton of business people flying this route, too. A few times, I'd be on an early morning (6am-7am) departure from ORD and it looks like 2/3rd of the plane is middle-aged executives (some in suits, others business casual). A lot of times, I'll do the same day am outbound to LGA/pm inbound from LGA and a few of times I will see the some of the same guys from the AM inbound flight, doing the same thing as me. In smooth traffic, its closer to a 2hour flight and when I found out about DL doing the hourly shuttle I thought it was a great idea. Glad to have so many options on this route though.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

DL is definitely at a MAJOR disadvantage

AA, UA, and WN all can offer West-CHI-NYC or Midwest-CHI-NYC or just ORD-LGA O&D. (MDW for WN's case)

DL can only realistically offer O&D since it's a weird backtracking if you do ORD-LGA-Southeast (not much of a reason to use one of the most delay prone airports as your domestic transit hub other than price, which destroys DL's yields anyway)

CO's service is both for its loyal customers as well as extensive European/SouthAmerican network.

B6 is a token service purely for convenience of its frequent flyers (it's like a couple flights a day)

Nothing against DL in general, but market share for the sake of it is not worth chasing.

sidenote : i'm always against the concept of double hubbing in the same metropolitan : eg AA/DL with LGA/JFK .... duplication and weakening of hub.


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6521 times:

"sidenote : i'm always against the concept of double hubbing in the same metropolitan : eg AA/DL with LGA/JFK .... duplication and weakening of hub."


Out of all that, the only true hub operation is DL at JFK.

AA has a gateway operation at JFK. Both DL and AA have a large O&D driven operation at LGA


User currently offlineGlobalCabotage From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

NYC-Chicago is one of the most traveled routes in the United States. There is strong O&D (premium and leisure) as well as connecting traffic. ORD/MDW to LGA/EWR/JFK/ISP/HPN/SWF offers a ton of flights.

UA/AA/WN/DL all have markets they are targeting. B6 seems to be the odd one out. They fly ORD-JFK (probably the least desirable of all the NYC routes. LGA and to a lesser extent EWR and HPN is where the money is gonig to (tons of corporate business out of HPN). If B6 wanted to be a player, they would work on their own LGA-ORD shuttle (with E jets).


User currently offlineelbandgeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6109 times:

I find it funny that DL moved the flights to ORD because WN was trashing their yields and it didn't seem to do them any good. They really are at a loss compared to all of the other carriers flying CHI-NYC. Arguably AA is the strongest one since they have large FF bases on both ends. UA will have a similar advantage as the merger progresses. Both of them, along with WN (who obviously has a large FF base on the Chicago end) offer westward connection options for New Yorkers. B6 and DL both have their own FF bases on the NY side have to fight harder for Chicago O&D pax, but I'd give the edge to B6 simply becuase as far as the way they run their business, they're closer to WN than DL and things like the bag fees and livetv will make the difference for people unless they have *extremely* strict schedules or insist on going into LGA. The only real advantage I see DL having is international connections from JFK but ORD has plenty of service already and for markets it doesn't UA's newly inherited TATL network from EWR negates much of the advantage. To me it almost would make more sense to move the JFK flights to MDW.

25 Cubsrule : I guess I wonder why/whether dumping nearly twice as much capacity on the route and moving the service to ORD was the solution to the CHI-LGA "proble
26 GlobalCabotage : I predict B6 will maintain their current ORD-JFK service, but, will cave in and offer hourly service (on the 1/2 hour to differentiate from the others
27 washingtonian : Was TW really operating hourly flights here?
28 dbo861 : Why would they? What does this accomplish? They only have 3 flights a day currently ORD-JFK all on E190s. JFK really isn't very convenient for the bu
29 Kngkyle : Anyone have the number of flights and seats for CHI-NYC now? It's got to be one of the biggest routes in the country.
30 FutureUScapt : And how do you propose that B6 will find an additional 12-15 slot pairs to operate hourly LGA-ORD service?
31 NYCFlyer : Of course there are O/D leisure pax on NYC-CHI. There are probably a lot of leisure pax on, say, ORD-DFW too, but that doesn't make ORD-DFW a leisure
32 EricR : I'm not so sure DL will pull out of this important route. With the recent round of mergers, I think you will start to see the Big 3 (plus WN) serve im
33 Cubsrule : I think that's right - but it would not shock me to see 13 daily E-Jets become 5 or 6 daily 319s.
34 EricR : Well, this will be interesting to watch. Business travelers love convenience. In fact, it is my understanding the number 1 factor of business travele
35 Cubsrule : I suspect it will have as much to do with what else they want to do at LGA as it will with ORD-LGA (or CHI-LGA); if they need 3 or 4 slots to start s
36 WROORD : ORD-LGA is relatively cheap (mostly around $220 tax included), but AA, CO/UA compensate this with flights to EWR which are now around $700 or higher.
37 Cubsrule : I think one other question we have to ask is how much frequency is enough. It's pretty obvious to me that a DL loyalist isn't going to go over to UA
38 ScottB : This won't last past late March, though, with WN having announced MDW-EWR. Not just that, but the LGA-ORD flights are over at the Marine Air Terminal
39 EricR : From personal experience, I can say that if flights on a business route are spread more 3 hours apart, then it definately warrants additional service
40 Post contains images rwy04lga : Only Chicago will benefit. If you lived in NY and had some leisure time, would you really want to waste it in Chicago? Yeah, from ORD. Llike DL doesn
41 LAXtoATL : When did this start?
42 EricR : Funny. I noticed this error later, but too much time had passed to edit it. I must have had my wires crossed again. I was talking about DL just prior
43 LAXtoATL : Thanks for the response.
44 WROORD : Maybe not you, but you'd be surprised how many people come to Chicago both in summer and winter. Chicago is always one of top 5 tourist destinations
45 Cubsrule : On a route like CHI-NYC, I agree with you - 8 to 10 is probably a sensible answer.
46 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : Yeah i live in NY and i often visit friends in Chicago its an amazing city, the people are certainly nicer at a minimum. People who live in the NY ar
47 rwy04lga : Just kidding, I have cousins in Chicago.
48 N62NA : Yes. AA has been doing it consistently for decades. UA has for decades too, but not as long as AA. TW used to as well... pretty much all 727-100s, on
49 Carfield : I actually quite like Delta Shuttle, which is definitely a better managed part of Delta. I flew LGA to ORD a number of times, and the loading was okay
50 dbo861 : Stupid question: do UA and AA do this on the ORD-LGA flights?
51 Carfield : No AA and UA treat this flight as a normal mainline flight - you have to pay for alcoholic beverages and snacks. Pretty standard mainline service thes
52 IndyWA : That's odd - I find them nicer than a lot of mainline F/As
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