AlexA340B777 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2008, 136 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6381 times:
Having excellent train connections between Düsseldorf / Cologne and Frankfurt airport (ICE train, only little more than 1 hour travelling time), I was wondering whether LH's DUS-FRA-DUS route is still running profitable.
IIRC, trains between those cities are even running on LH flight numbers, so why are there still so many daily flights of LH between DUS and FRA?
So far travelled to 65 countries on 5 continents on 410 flights
Andie007 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 867 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6268 times:
Have you flown them in the past?
I fly this route quite regulary as feeder service to medium- and longhaul services out of Franfkurt. 2/3 of the plane is reserved for business class travel only (mostly fully booked).
I'm quite sure that from an overall perspective the service is needed (feeding of FRA // compete on a full business class fyling service against BA, AF, EK, AY, IB, KL, etc. // yield perspective).
None of the passengers are really flying only DUS-FRA-DUS...
USXGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6238 times:
the route itself may not make money, however it provides network revenue to the system by offering the connections. Airlines will always offer "unprofitable" routes as they support the rest of the system - which is why you hear airlines complain about some Hawaii flights, Key West, Bahamas, Cancun, etc... as the loss (revenue) on each flight is supplimented by the fact its keeping other routes afloat with the feed/connection traffic.
CO 757-300 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6222 times:
i am sure it is almost ALL connection beyond FRA..
with that said, although i'm not a local expert (but i have visited the region several times), here may be some reasons:
- some people may not be keen on the "change of transport type" regardless of how convenient it may be.
- as far as i know, you cannot check your bag through from NRT to DUS from an airbus 380 to a train at FRA and then claim it at the DUS station. instead just check it through and not touch your bag until arrival in DUS.
- people driving in from outside of the DUS/Dusseldorf immediate vicinity (it is a large metropolitan area, and i know some dutch use the airport as well), it may be just as easy to drive to DUS airport than to a local train station, then connect again to a flight at FRA.
- with the huge amount of people in the region, naturally, not everyone will choose the same option even if one makes slightly less sense. its just large numbers and statistics.
chootie From Germany, joined May 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6215 times:
...and by the way do you know how inconvienient and basically a pain in the a** it is to schlep your bags for a long haul flight from Germany to XXX on the train?? Sure, they have special seats blocked for baggagae transportation, but the wonderful aspect of checking in and getting rid of your luggage is oh soooooo sweet. (LH used to have Thru-checked in baggage via CGN rail center) ----Miss that service!!!!
And back to the topic, NRW in Germany has the most persons and money per capita. LH would be taking a GREAT risk to loose those passengers and revenue.
vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6161 times:
AIRail is only between FRA and Cologne central station, not Düsseldorf. Also the train service between FRA and Dusseldorf is much less frequent than between FRA and Cologne (some high-speed trains do not continue beyond Cologne while the rest goes in three different directions).
stylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2974 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5685 times:
in contrast to some views here the local demand between FRA-DUS-DUS is actually really high. the flight is not only feeding the system, but is also generating its own profits due to high yield Eco and Business fares.
INNflyer From Austria, joined Dec 2008, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5622 times:
I have flown FRA-DUS many many times and LH-Business Class was always fully loaded. Interestingly, for example on LH flights (from the neighbour town Cologne) CGN-MUC Business Class is mostly rather empty. As has been said, the commercial show is running in DUS (accordingly, full flights to FRA), while the volume appears to be at CGN. Also, most folks travel beyond FRA- do not forget, the largest "japanese" town in Germany is Düsseldorf.
flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5459 times:
As others have said, connecting traffic plays a big role in keeping these flights.
For connecting pax (and also local O/D pax, though I doubt there are many, for cost reasons) there are two main advantages to flying to FRA vs. taking the train:
1. For people living north or west of Düsseldorf (which includes several of its richer suburbs), the airport can be reached more quickly than Düsseldorf Central Station. The airport has its own train station with frequent service (some of it even long-distance service), so it is really quite well connected. There is little time that can be saved by taking the train for these passengers.
2. DUS is a lot smaller than FRA, and I find check-in and security to be quicker there than at FRA, which is often a zoo. Arriving at FRA off a connecting flight, with your onward boarding pass in hand, your luggage already taken care of and the security check already completed is a breeze compared to essentially being a local pax when coming off the train.
Oh, and one other nice thing: there's a transfer of liability of you fly to FRA. As long as you get to DUS on time, it's LH's responsibility to sort out problems that arise due to delayed flights or whatever. If you take the train down to FRA and the train is late, you're out of luck as far as LH is concerned (though you are protected if you're booked on a connecting ticket as an AirRail passenger from Cologne or Stuttgart).
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3966 times:
Quoting USXGuy (Reply 2): the route itself may not make money, however it provides network revenue to the system by offering the connections. Airlines will always offer "unprofitable" routes as they support the rest of the system - which is why you hear airlines complain about some Hawaii flights, Key West, Bahamas, Cancun
, etc... as the loss (revenue) on each flight is supplimented by the fact its keeping other routes afloat with the feed/connection traffic.
Your point is correct, your routes are wrong.
Hawaiian, Bahamas and Cancun are tourist/vacation destinations, they feed nothing.
If anything, other routes feed flights to them.
Typically unprofitable flights that are kept are those into a hub for further connections.
USXGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3631 times:
I was just highlighting routes that are not the "best revenue" performers based on what friends (in actual Revenue Management positions) have told me at USAirways & American. They said they do their best to at least cover the basic flight costs with revenue (using cash revenue) even though about 8-15% of the seats are frequent flyer redemptions.
Key West is a prime example - USAirways has always been one of the larger carriers, but when economics came crashing at USAirways in 2004, they had look at better ways of serving it once Air Midwest shut down. Hence the E170s and shuttling between FLL/MCO and eventually CLT. Fact is, US has never made a dime in Key West, nor has Continental... its there to exist as a link on the route map.
So my point was, using the above route, CLT-EYW may not make money for US, but MDT/BWI/EWR/BDL-CLT then continuing to EYW brings in network revenue to make it worthwhile.
123 From Bolivia, joined Nov 2003, 745 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3463 times:
I've used flights and LH-separate train wagon on the ICE. I would not think twice and always take the train for FRA/CGN/FRA services or even DUS (only 20 minutes longer).
You save a lot of time and money too, because you arrive at central stations.
If you use the LH separated wagon, their service in business class is outstanding and the sights are welcoming, specially if you come from overseas after a loooong flight, a trainride is a welcome change.
Luggage can be a problem, no doubt about it - if you don´t want´to carry too much, pack less. Easy!