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HNL Routes By Delta  
User currently offlinedldtw1962 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 393 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8118 times:

Hello everyone.
I just was noticing that DL will be canceling it's DTW-HNL on 02Jan11 and MSP-HNL on 16FEB11. This makes
it 4 routes to HNL that DL has done away with. The others are PDX and SAN.
Is this for good or is it sessonal only. I know Hawaii busy season is in the Summer.

Thanks
Chuck

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkyPriorityDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7392 times:

Quoting dldtw1962 (Thread starter):
DTW-HNL

This was canceled already... I believe the last day for the route was October 28th or somewhere around that date. Loads weren't that great at all!



Keep Climbing...
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

So is DL mostly ceding HNL to HA and UA? It was probably not a big cash generator and DL can re-allocate the aircraft to something else.

User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6951 times:

Does DL still fly SLC-HNL? I would think that route is better situated than some cities farther east.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

DL still flies quite a few seats into HNL domestic only they fly mostly 753s and 767 domestics which have alot of seats. PDX i think was exited purely cause AS moved in on the market

(of course varies by dates slightly)
757-300 SEA
767-300 SLC
333-300 ATL
757-300 SFO
2x757-300 LAX
767-300 to LAX


User currently offlineMNMncrcnwjr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6607 times:

They also serve

LIH - 757-300 LAX

OGG - 757 x2 LAX

KOA - 757 LAX

And there are alot of AS code share flights to the Islands from the Mainland ...



CV340/580DC3DC9super80MD88/90DC10717273747576777A319/20CRJ2/7/9F27AVROJET31CITAT5/7/XSAAB340YS11Dash8E135/45/75
User currently offlinekinglobjaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6426 times:

Quoting SkyPriorityDTW (Reply 1):
This was canceled already... I believe the last day for the route was October 28th or somewhere around that date. Loads weren't that great at all!

I see a DTW nonstop to HNL om 12/23.

-Kinglobjaw



Kinglobjaw
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 6535 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 2):
So is DL mostly ceding HNL to HA and UA? It was probably not a big cash generator and DL can re-allocate the aircraft to something else.



I would hardly call ceding the HNL market to HA and UA when you have 10 flights and about 2100 seats a day in the Hawaii market, from the mainland.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 4):
PDX i think was exited purely cause AS moved in on the market

AS announced the route a few days after Delta announced the cancellation. So there was probably something going on between those two. But it looks like DL initiated it.

Quoting kinglobjaw (Reply 6):
I see a DTW nonstop to HNL on 12/23.

And you will. If I remember my search results right, DTW-HNL returns for two more Sundays in November, one on either side of Thanksgiving and for three full 3X weeks in DEC/JAN covering Christmas. The last flight it just into January.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 7):

I would hardly call ceding the HNL market to HA and UA when you have 10 flights and about 2100 seats a day in the Hawaii market, from the mainland.

Compared to the summer of 2008, the last with NW/DL schedules, Delta has dropped capacity significantly. Of course the 764 mods required some changes, like LAX-HNL which was a 764 yet in May 08. By late February, it should look like this compared to July 2008.

ATL-HNL: 2X 764 > 1X A333
MSP-HNL: 1X A333 > 0
SLC-HNL: 1X 764 > 1X763
LAX-HNL: 2X 763, 1X 753 > 1X 763, 2X 753
SEA-HNL: 2X 753 > 1X 753
SFO-HNL: 1X 753 = 1X 753
PDX-HNL: 1X 753 > 0

By my rough math, that's 2,803 daily seats down to just 1,718 in less than three years. HA and the new UA have many more seats. UA/CO last summer had about 4,350 daily seats, which was very consistent with 2008 capacity. I don't know about you, but I'd say Delta is clearly letting Hawaii go to carriers like AS, HA, and UA.


User currently offlineMNMncrcnwjr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6048 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
I'd say Delta is clearly letting Hawaii go to carriers like AS, HA,

But there are sure a lot of DL Code shared AS and HA flights within and from the mainland which either partially replaces or surpasses what was reduced on DL equip .. and not knowing DL margins and what Dl margins are on Code shared flights, could be a sound business move IF faced with a perceived euip shortage / high utilization in 2011



CV340/580DC3DC9super80MD88/90DC10717273747576777A319/20CRJ2/7/9F27AVROJET31CITAT5/7/XSAAB340YS11Dash8E135/45/75
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5951 times:

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 9):
But there are sure a lot of DL Code shared AS and HA flights within and from the mainland which either partially replaces or surpasses what was reduced on DL equip .. and not knowing DL margins and what Dl margins are on Code shared flights, could be a sound business move IF faced with a perceived euip shortage / high utilization in 2011

Well I'm sure that's part of the replacement plan, the like the PDX-HNL swap with AS. Not the same as all Delta, but it helps. Either way the steady decline of flights since 2008 indicate a strategy that has little to nothing to do with available aircraft.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

while we're at it, between AA, new UA/CO, AS, HA, and DL of contiguous 48 to anywhere in Hawaii :

1. who has most flights (DL or new UA?)
2. who has most seats (i'm guessing new UA/CO)
3. who has most Hawaiian destinations (excluding intra-island only destinations) (new UA?)
4. who has most contiguous 48 gateways (i'm guessing DL)


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5829 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 10):
Either way the steady decline of flights since 2008 indicate a strategy that has little to nothing to do with available aircraft.

You do realize that DL has a limited supply of aircraft? That means that all decisions on which flights to operate and which flights to cancel are conducted considering the allocation of limited resources (airplanes) to their most profitable destinations. If an airline is making any decisions on which routes / markets to serve without aircraft utilization as a major part of that decision, that airline will not be in business very long. Airplanes are a limited resource for airlines and a very expensive to replace, how an airline chooses to deploy those assets (which airplanes to operate and on which routes) is the single most crucial aspect of running a successful airline.

[Edited 2010-11-04 12:58:57]

User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 12):
You do realize that DL has a limited supply of aircraft? That means that all decisions on which flights to operate and which flights to cancel are conducted considering the allocation of limited resources (airplanes) to their most profitable destinations. If an airline is making any decisions on which routes / markets to serve without aircraft utilization as a major part of that decision, that airline will not be in business very long. Airplanes are a limited resource for airlines and a very expensive to replace, how an airline chooses to deploy those assets (which airplanes to operate and on which routes) is the single most crucial aspect of running a successful airline.

Again, the evidence shows that this has very little to nothing to do with aircraft availability. Delta's Hawaii reduction has been steady since it started in 2008, years before "aircraft availability" and "Hawaii" were connected. I don't believe there has been a single Hawaii route that has seen an increase in capacity in that timeframe. Multiple routes have been cancelled. Neither has a new route started and survived since then. Look at the chart of the HNL routes I've posted above. The non-HNL routes are in a similar boat, either losing some capacity or all service. Every airline undergoes aircraft modifications and other downtime. If Hawaii was a still a priority for Delta, and the aircraft interior modifications were an issue, different aircraft would be shuffled around to at least provide similar service until they're back at full strength. What all this evidence shows is that Hawaii is not on Delta's positive list, and that's likely the #1 reason for the declines.

[Edited 2010-11-04 14:03:49]

User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
Again, the evidence shows that this has very little to nothing to do with aircraft availability. Delta's Hawaii reduction has been steady since it started in 2008, years before "aircraft availability" and "Hawaii" were connected. I don't believe there has been a single Hawaii route that has seen an increase in capacity in that timeframe. Multiple routes have been cancelled. Neither has a new route started and survived since then. Look at the chart of the HNL routes I've posted above. The non-HNL routes are in a similar boat, either losing some capacity or all service. Every airline undergoes aircraft modifications and other downtime. If Hawaii was a still a priority for Delta, and the aircraft interior modifications were an issue, different aircraft would be shuffled around to at least provide similar service until they're back at full strength. What all this evidence shows is that Hawaii is not on Delta's positive list, and that's likely the #1 reason for the declines.

You don't seem to get it. It has everything to do with aircraft availability, you are confusing the reason why they are cutting routes with the reason they are choosing to cut Hawaii routes. I will try this one last time and either you catch on or you don't. DL has apparently analyzed their network and decided that Hawaii is not as profitable as other destinations they can service with their airplanes and thus it is not a priority. However, to suggest that the cuts were made without consideration to aircraft utilization / availability is ridiculous. Once again, airplanes are limited resources. If the market has been served profitability (even if the profit margin on the route is minimal) or even if they have been serving at a loss to derive other network benefits for all these years - you have to assume that the airline would choose to continue to serve the market if they had unlimited resources. The fact that planes are limited and destinations are unlimited, decisions must be made with regard to which unlimited destinations a limited number of planes will serve. (If DL had 10 more A333s, I think it is safe to assume that MSP-HNL would still be on the schedule, but since they don't they have to decide which routes / destinations are a priority over others and thus determine the best utilization of their fleet).


User currently offlineMNMncrcnwjr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 13):
Delta's Hawaii reduction has been steady since it started in 2008, years before "aircraft availability" and "Hawaii" were connected.

Well IIRC overall airline Capacity has greatly been reduced system wide since the beginning of 2008 and the market downturn as "the economy" plays a very large roll.

As a DL internal notice (freely available as an iTunes Podcast) indicated in Sept. that DL (and some Euro carriers) are forecasting a robust 2011 Q2 an Q3 for international travel with higher WB utilization. With the removal of the -30's and -40's and the seemingly slow MD9K's additions AND the WB mods, one would think that DL's a/c utilization guru's are working overtime to match capacity to routes by all means necessary to maximize profit. Yes Virginia DL has airplanes, but sometimes not the perfect mix to serve all the current and desired markets on 6 continents.

[Edited 2010-11-04 15:43:59]


CV340/580DC3DC9super80MD88/90DC10717273747576777A319/20CRJ2/7/9F27AVROJET31CITAT5/7/XSAAB340YS11Dash8E135/45/75
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
1. who has most flights (DL or new UA?)

UA schedule for February;

HNL-
EWR 1 daily- IAH 1 daily- SNA 1 daily- LAX 5 daily- SFO 4 daily- DEN 1 daily- GUM 1 daily- ORD 1 daily- NAN 1 weekly- MAJ 4x weekly- NRT 1 daily-

OGG-
LAX 3 daily- SNA 1 daily- SFO 2 daily- DEN 1 daily-

KOA-
LAX 2 daily- SFO 2 daily- DEN 2x weekly-

LIH-
DEN 2x weekly- LAX 1 daily- SFO 1 daily

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
4. who has most contiguous 48 gateways (i'm guessing DL)

UA flies to Hawaii from LAX, SFO, SNA, IAH, DEN, ORD, EWR.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
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Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
1. who has most flights (DL or new UA?)
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
2. who has most seats (i'm guessing new UA/CO)

UA. UA has been the #1 airline in terms of seats and flights to Hawaii for around 50 years.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
3. who has most Hawaiian destinations (excluding intra-island only destinations) (new UA?)

AA, AS, DL, and UA all serve 4 Hawaii destinations: HNL, OGG, KOA, and LIH

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
4. who has most contiguous 48 gateways (i'm guessing DL)

This one is HA with 10 (SEA, PDX, SMF, SFO, OAK, SJC, LAX, SAN, LAS, PHX). DL (SEA, SFO, LAX, SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL) and UA (LAX, SFO, SNA, IAH, DEN, ORD, EWR) each have 7 at the moment.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 8):
LAX-HNL: 2X 763, 1X 753 > 1X 763, 2X 753

was 1x 752 1x 753 1x 763 after the merger. Post merger LAX has been upgraded to Hawaii(only city in the Network to say this).
went from
1x 752 1x 763 1x 753=HNL
1x 752=HNL
1x 752(5w 752 in off season)=KOA and LIH
to
2x 753 1x 763=HNL
2x 752=OGG(soon to go 1x 763 1x 752)
and LIH/KOA are now year round daily 757.

Quoting MNMncrcnwjr (Reply 5):
OGG - 757 x2 LAX

goes 1x 763 1x 752 on DEC 18.



yep.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5035 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 18):
was 1x 752 1x 753 1x 763 after the merger.

You're thinking of about May-June 2009, when the final 764 was pulled off of SLC-HNL, and a 763 was moved from LAX to SLC, with a 752 soon replacing the 763 at LAX. Then LAX-HNL was as you have listed. My comparison was from 2008, so it goes to back to when it was 2X 763 and 1X 753. Since summer 2008 it's never been higher than that, with some of that time even spent at just 1X 763 and 1x 753. So LAX has seen a decline to HNL, albeit slight as it stands right now. Overall to Hawaii, LAX has seen a small gain, but that gain has come at the expense of the SLC/SEA-OGG cancellations. In the end, non-HNL routes in the Delta network have seen significant declines as well.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 10):
Well I'm sure that's part of the replacement plan, the like the PDX-HNL swap with AS.

PDX-HNL was not a swap with AS, or at least it would have been illegal if had been. DL and AS are not permitted to coordinate schedules.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4744 times:

does anyone know when UA cancelled ORD-HNL (i thought that was the original intention of 77A) ? that gaping hole looks like an eyesore (compared to their comprehensive gateway list)

HA's 10 gateways (SEA, PDX, SMF, SFO, OAK, SJC, LAX, SAN, LAS, PHX) is really just 8 cities/metros.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 21):
does anyone know when UA cancelled ORD-HNL (i thought that was the original intention of 77A) ? that gaping hole looks like an eyesore (compared to their comprehensive gateway list)

United operates a daily ORD-HNL, and also has a ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD flight on 777s.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):

PDX-HNL was not a swap with AS, or at least it would have been illegal if had been. DL and AS are not permitted to coordinate schedules.

Not technically, no, but AS could have entered the route, prompting DL to end it and redeploy the aircraft somewhere else, and thus DL codeshared with AS to continue having a presence on PDX-HNL.

Jeremy


User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 16):
UA schedule for February;

HNL-
EWR 1 daily- IAH 1 daily- SNA 1 daily- LAX 5 daily- SFO 4 daily- DEN 1 daily- GUM 1 daily- ORD 1 daily- NAN 1 weekly- MAJ 4x weekly- NRT 1 daily-

OGG-
LAX 3 daily- SNA 1 daily- SFO 2 daily- DEN 1 daily-

KOA-
LAX 2 daily- SFO 2 daily- DEN 2x weekly-

LIH-
DEN 2x weekly- LAX 1 daily- SFO 1 daily

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
4. who has most contiguous 48 gateways (i'm guessing DL)

UA flies to Hawaii from LAX, SFO, SNA, IAH, DEN, ORD, EWR.

So UA no longer serves the 2nd largest city in the islands, Hilo?
I took a non-stop ORD-ITO back in the 80s.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
25 Cubsrule : Absolutely - I was just pointing out that it would have been illegal for DL and AS to literally swap it.
26 YULWinterSkies : When i flew it earlier in October, empty seats were few, if any. Admittedly, it was on a Saturday night and weekdays could have been much different.
27 United1 : Hilo has no service from the mainland any longer....UA moved everything over to Kona years ago to better serve the resort areas on the western side o
28 AADC10 : Perhaps, but UA/CO has 10 flights to HNL just from California plus flights from DEN, ORD, EWR and IAH. Some of those might disappear when the merger
29 MSPNWA : I should have said "swap". Of course they couldn't coordinate schedules directly. But I don't think Delta cancels PDX-HNL without expecting AS and th
30 SurfandSnow : DL still offers ample service to Hawaii, serving HNL from ATL, LAX, SLC, SFO, and SEA from our end as well as NRT, KIX, and soon NGO. Then OGG, KOA, a
31 CV880 : Like about 1500 seats from HNL-Japan pdew.[Edited 2010-11-05 13:41:43]
32 Post contains links MNMncrcnwjr : While not directly using some key words .. there is a sense of "coordination" between DL and AS expressed in this month's DL sky mag http://msp.imiru
33 ha763 : Because the U.S. West is by far the largest visitor market to Hawaii. The airlines only served ITO, usually as a tag on, because it was required due
34 CALPSAFltSkeds : I flew NR on UA to HNL about 1978. On the return, we had to get to ITO to fly home. It was a 747 ITO-LAX and I remember the gate agent telling me the
35 n7371f : Don't tell that to Delta pilots! Many of them firmly believe they're losing out on plenty of west coast flying that's being given to AS...and, honest
36 ha763 : UA has not added any flights due to the PHH contract. ATA did fine after losing the PHH contract because of their codeshare with WN. I have heard tha
37 Cubsrule : How so? Everything listed in there is completely legal.
38 HAL : And at HA's limited size, it was best to concentrate on where the biggest markets were. However as they expand, they are most certainly planning on f
39 7673mech : Disagree. They are able to fill a plane every day from each gateway. OAK/SFO/SJC/SMF while in close proximity to each other are still seperate gatewa
40 MNMncrcnwjr : Yes everything listed in the Dl SkyMag is completely legit and meets strict legal requirements .........................
41 MNMncrcnwjr : And I wouldn't then be surprised by an expanded DL advanced partnership arrangement (purely speculation on my part) similar to AS
42 Cubsrule : Let me be more clear: every type of cooperation listed in there is entirely legal and does not require government approval.
43 exFWAOONW : Same here. A year or two earlier or later, I can't recall which, we ended up taking a red-eye 747 ITO-SAN, then hopped DEN-ORD-FWA home in two days,
44 brilondon : That is before January when they will cease that flight. I am guessing that HA would have the largest number of seats available? I am not going to sh
45 bobnwa : I don't quite understand this remark as the DL330-300 have the same ratio of windows per passenger as does everyone else don't they? This is compared
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