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Delta Atlanta-JNB Performance  
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4999 posts, RR: 51
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16739 times:

Has anybody heard about DL's performance on ATL-JNB. This is the longest 777 flight, so I imagine that DL would need extraordinary yields to sustain this.

Thanks!

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16659 times:

my guess is that yields PER SEAT SOLD is high because people are more than willing to pay for comfort on such a long flight, but loads can't be that impressive.

You can already fly nonstop to JFK (O&D) and IAD (StarAlliance hub-to-hub), so your base is really corporate contracts that have sold themselves to SkyTeam (in which you're competing with low prices from AF and KL - e.g. LAX-JNB is only 6.7% longer via Paris than via Atlanta), and any kind of O&D, if any (how many Coca Cola employees need to go to JNB anyway)

And if you live in a large city, you have infinite options to connect via SouthAmerica (mostly GRU), Europe, and the middle east (if you're at SF, LA, CHI, Houston, DC, or NYC).

The only advantage i can think of the is the flat bed versus slanted in most competition on this route (sans BA).


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16657 times:

It's one of the better performing routes from what I have heard, and the cargo on it certainly helps. JNB goes full all the time in both classes, and this summer when they ran it 2 daily it was full as well, granted it was during the world cup but both upper and lower decks were full of revenue.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16621 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
but loads can't be that impressive.

The loads are not the problem; the thing runs 88% full on average. The fare appears to be decent so I imagine the flight does well on the revenue side, but it's also a costly flight to operate. I'd guess it is profitable but not printing money, especially when fuel goes up.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16590 times:

My good friend lives in JNB from Omaha/ Kansas City. Him and his wife fly back and forth several times a year always on Delta. He says the flight are packed absolutely every flight. He just bought a ticket for $1,500 and that was the cheapest he's ever purchased one. Most the time closer to 2k he said.

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16569 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):

Come to think of it: why is DL even in business, right???  

Ask yourself the question: why has DL invested in 777LR's?
Loads ARE actually impressive. This is a great route for DL.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5768 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16565 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
You can already fly nonstop to JFK (O&D) and IAD (StarAlliance hub-to-hub)

These are both nonstop in only one direction, unless SA obtains A345s as has occasionally been rumored.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16493 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 4):
My good friend lives in JNB from Omaha/ Kansas City. Him and his wife fly back and forth several times a year always on Delta. He says the flight are packed absolutely every flight. He just bought a ticket for $1,500 and that was the cheapest he's ever purchased one. Most the time closer to 2k he said.

then that's bad for DL too, cuz u're trashing yields AND sacrificing cargo rev for the sake of load factor

a random search for a Tues-Tues in March 2011 for OMA-JNB shows DL only asking for $1217....


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10601 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16281 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
(how many Coca Cola employees need to go to JNB anyway)

Or Home Depot or UPS or....................  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16227 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):
a random search for a Tues-Tues in March 2011 for OMA-JNB shows DL only asking for $1217....

Don't forget the times that he goes are mostly around holidays...4th of July and Christmas. In addition, I was just saying that prices have came down a bit over the past two years.

I just bought my own OMA-CPT ticket via FRA. I paid $1585. Not too bad if you as me for that many miles flown. Plus it was V class for that price!! I can use my system-wide upgrades...perfect!!


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9706 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16202 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Thread starter):
This is the longest 777 flight, so I imagine that DL would need extraordinary yields to sustain this.

If length was a major problem with the 777LR, DL could operate it out of JFK which is almost 500 miles shorter than ATL.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6312 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16073 times:

not to hijack the thread but I am waiting patiently to fly DL to NBO.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15965 times:

My goodness all the doubters every single time.

Delta has no competition on ATL-JNB. Do you really think they would still be running the flight if they were bleeding? Let's not forget SA operated this flight for YEARS. There is a pretty large local community in Atlanta and the surrounding southeast. The O&D is there. Not to metion the connections that they are able to capture...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15575 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 7):
then that's bad for SA)">DL too, cuz u're trashing yields AND sacrificing cargo rev for the sake of load factor

You have no idea what SA)">DL is doing regarding yields and cargo. Who said anything about sacrificing cargo revenue for load factor?  
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):
and any kind of O&D

ATL-JNB is actually a sizable O&D market, one of the reasons that SA (along with its codeshares with SA)">DL) decided to fly to ATL back in the day. Combined with having more seats from ATL than any other single airline hub on earth, it makes ATL-JNB work.

Jeremy


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15145 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Loads ARE actually impressive. This is a great route for DL.

Most have already realized that loads do not mean anything. Loads were very high a couple of years ago when airlines were losing big money. Load factors mostly indicate how aggressive and effective yield management is. If some flight is an extremely poor performer the airline might not want to reduce fares down the the level necessary to keep the flight full and it would probably not last long either. Only WN and some other LCCs tolerate low load factors on some flights to keep utilization up and simplify fares.

Long international flights are less flexible since there are fewer choices of aircraft for the mission but again yield management will keep fares at a level to fill the plane. There are also a few destinations where cargo is important enough that an airline will tolerate low load factors.

Regardless, I have little doubt that JNB is a big enough destination to keep the flight profitable. Back in the early 1990s it was difficult to get cargo on a flight because there was a rush to get into post-apartheid South Africa and there is probably still some of that business growth.


User currently offlineolli From Mexico, joined Mar 2001, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14635 times:

I just did the flight and both ways the loads were 100% in both classes.

Best Regards,


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13455 times:

Quoting olli (Reply 15):
I just did the flight and both ways the loads were 100% in both classes

How many were nonrevs? When I returned from SCL a few years ago both cabins were 100% yet only one passenger paid for the seat in Business Elite, all the rest were nonrevs.

[Edited 2010-11-05 15:59:38]


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineflyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12906 times:

Quoting olli (Reply 15):
I just did the flight and both ways the loads were 100% in both classes.

Same with me; even when I did the flight via DKR the aircraft was packed.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):
How many were nonrevs? When I returned from SCL a few years ago both cabins were 100% yet only one passenger paid for the seat in Business Elite, all the rest were nonrevs.

There are a few nonrevs that occassionally get in Business, but all summer long I believe DL had an entire embargo on non-rev travel travel to JNB - if not then definately for buddy passes. I have had friends that have been stuck there for over a week because cargo was taking a priority over filling seats. The cheapest ticket my wife and I have gotten has been $1400ish each, and for our trip there next year, the tickets are already priced for the lowest at about $2400 each. You also have to figure that there are enough regular travelers on this route, that many are cashing in their miles - which you earn quickly on this flight - for business class award seats which I believe go for 120,000-180,000 miles each. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8577 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12792 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 14):
Most have already realized that loads do not mean anything.

In this case loads are a huge indication. With so little competition between the US and S.Africa, SA)">DL would have had to abandon all principles of revenue management to not make a killing on this route. Yes there are options via Europe but most options require lots of hours in transit at an European airport as US arrivals are in the early morning and SA bound flights depart in the evening. SA)">DL would not operate to JNB twice daily in the Summer if it wasn't making lots of money on it.


User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12738 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):
How many were nonrevs? When I returned from SCL a few years ago both cabins were 100% yet only one passenger paid for the seat in Business Elite, all the rest were nonrevs.

There have been DL employees/family thereof on this board complaining because they want to take the flight but the loads are so consistently high they don't feel confident they'd be guaranteed to make the return. Of course, that says nothing about the fares people are paying, but it does say that people are paying.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12415 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 19):



Just from what a few members have already said on here and my own research, fares look like they average between $1200 and $2000 in the back.

Despite what a particular member may believe, I think it's safe to say Delta is doing okay on ATL-JNB   Like I said, they won't be flying such a long route if they were not making money. Especially given the fact that the route had been ceded a few years ago.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12330 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 19):
There have been DL employees/family thereof on this board complaining because they want to take the flight but the loads are so consistently high they don't feel confident they'd be guaranteed to make the return.

Count me among them. My uncle (a PMNW agent) wants to use his 2 PS tickets for us to go to JNB since my aunt can't fly. I made it to CPT in 2008 but got bumped on the way back in DKR. Hey, one more stamp in the passport.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11611 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Thread starter):
Has anybody heard about DL's performance on ATL-JNB. This is the longest 777 flight, so I imagine that DL would need extraordinary yields to sustain this.

I realize this thread pertains to ATL-JNB, but DLs longest 777 route belong to DTW-HKG, correct?


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11457 times:

DTW-HKG 7857
ATL-JNB 8439



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1616 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11445 times:

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 22):

I realize this thread pertains to ATL-JNB, but DLs longest 777 route belong to DTW-HKG, correct?

I don't know the actual flight distances, someone else with more knowledge can confirm, but from my knowledge of a map I would assume that ATL-JNB would be farther by a decent margin. Remember, the DTW-HKG route would take a polar path (flying almost directly Nouth then directly South), not a direct SW route over the Pacific.


25 Post contains images rwy04lga : More knowledge.. ...good one!
26 olli : I don´t have a clue, however I can tell you about myself and familiy (3) flew Business Elite and paid 7,000+USD. Regards,
27 BNAOWB : Does any alliance have service from North America to JNB that requires a connection in South America? Assuming that the only TATL flights from South
28 jfk777 : The 777-200LR is the only plane which can take-off from Johhannesberg's mile high altitude with enough fuel to fly all the way back to the USA. SAA A3
29 bobnwa : Are you sure the A340-500 can't do it? Seems it likely could.
30 kl911 : Would the A345 be able to do it? or the A380? just asking..
31 Post contains images SA7700 : I presume you mean with payload? IMHO the A343E and A346 are more than capable of reaching the USA without payload and a technical fuel stop..... Wit
32 jfk777 : What would be the point of SAA having an A340 fly nonstop to the USA with no Payload ? IF the A340 could do it SAA would have flown nonstop from JNB
33 MaverickM11 : Rest assured ATLJNB is very full, year round. ATLSCL, on the other hand, is not.
34 Post contains images SA7700 : You stated the following which is essentially incorrect: On another note: I have heard rumors that SA wants to start JNB-JFK non-stop with the A346,
35 aviationwiz : Nah, there's an SAAF BBJ for that, :P
36 andz : SAA will never get 345s. 346 can. It is more than a rumour, it is going to happen with the 346.
37 SA7700 : My apologies for going slightly off-topic here.... Hi Andz, Is there any indication yet, from SA, when we can expect to see these flights loaded in th
38 andz : No idea, I read it in the SAA flight operations internal magazine a couple of months ago.
39 rwy04lga : The SCLATL reference was just an example of what looked full but really wasn't, not to compare loads with JNBATL. To the original poster, his flight
40 MD88Captain : It has produced solid revenue since day one. I fly this route often and see the plane packed with people and cargo every flight. Open seats are seem r
41 jfk777 : SA 7700, Since SAA has had A340-600 for years, why would they do it now instead of 5 years ago when they received most of their A340-600 fleet ? SAA
42 SA7700 : IMHO they did not have a real incentive at the time to do so. SA obtained 5th freedom rights to fly to-and from the USA via DKR - thus increasing the
43 jfk777 : There was a book written a few years ago about the tenure of CEO Coleman Andrews, an American airline executive. It described many situations where t
44 pfletch1228 : SA7700 has nailed it. Its (mainly) about the Cargo. The A346 is capable of flying full pax load almost year round non-stop JNB-JFK, but the payload hi
45 LAXtoATL : I really have no idea if it will come back, but I heard that it was a terrible performer and it also affected the performance of the JNB flight...
46 SESGDL : If and/or when SA enters JNB-JFK nonstop with A346 equipment, I wouldn't put it past DL to try JNB-JFK on their 77L equipment. DL has become the #1 c
47 lucky777 : Absolutely...and with the extra cargo that the 77L can ride vs. the A340, the flight should to be all the more profitable to Delta.
48 Post contains images rwy04lga : I sure hope so Rats!
49 aerlingusa330 : Yep, I flew ATL-JNB on their 747-400 and then from JNB-CPT on an A300 in 2000. It was a comfy flight in the 747. Isn't the current IAD-JNB flight non
50 SA7700 : No. At this stage IAD-JNB is flown one-stop via DKR with the A343, whilst JFK-JNB is non-stop, also with the A343. Rgds SA7700
51 mayor : In this is a big change in DL's philosophy, too. Years ago, DL wouldn't have cared all that much about the cargo loads, caring more about the pax loa
52 mogandoCI : based on DL's past history with ATL-PVG/ICN, i'm not holding my breath (and we're talking about hub-to-hub for Seoul ICN and 15% shorter), not to ment
53 airbuske : or everyone with a functioning brain knows that the US-Africa market is underserved.
54 lucky777 : Since you put forth no facts that prove Delta is losing money on this specific route, i'll assume "pride" doesn't factor into their decision on wheth
55 pfletch1228 : I don't believe DL keep any routes out of "pride". If its not making money, it will have been gone a long time ago (witness what happened with the CP
56 Frostbite : Good conclusion, go with that. I wouldn't hold my breath for DL to quit ATL-JNB either.
57 airbazar : As pointed out above, no need. There was no competition. SA was the only game in town. Does DL have a spare pair of 77L's to operate a second route o
58 seabosdca : Dubai has no oil and is not a major center for the oil industry. On the other hand, it has the Colossus of all the world's hub-and-spoke airlines. I
59 mayor : The loads for the single flight were very heavy, BEFORE the World Cup. The second flight was added specifically for World Cup traffic.
60 Post contains images SESGDL : No, I don't think DL would move the flight from ATL to JFK, I meant in addition to ATL-JNB service. DL could move aircraft around, for example, ATL-D
61 mogandoCI : i'm not doubting ATL's monstrosity, but merely making the observation that ULH depends heavily on O&D, and that ATL-JNB doesn't fit the mold too
62 SESGDL : This argument doesn't hold water, as DL has been quick to discontinue other services, including the ULH JFK-BOM, ATL-BOM, and ATL-KWI routes. Longhau
63 bobnwa : How do you explain Delta is not depending heavily on O&D, yet it appears to be doing very well in the market? How do you explain that to the Delt
64 airbazar : It is where all the oil money from the region is kept, in part due to it's political and economic stability and a lot of business (oil related and no
65 LAXtoATL : I am no expert on the Middle East, but I am pretty sure that the business, political, and economic center of the U.A.E. is actually Abu Dhabi, Dubai
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