ER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 8 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 50985 times:
I posted this in part 2 just seconds before it was locked, re-posting here
Based on the photos, videos and posts here, can anyone make an educated guess as to how long it may take to get this aircraft repaired and back in service? Or is it just too early to estimate?
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15869 posts, RR: 66 Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 51013 times:
BOEING747400 said: Thank god that the A380 engines can be changeable to EA just in case RR T900 is found to be unsafe! Otherwise, it would have been a waste of aircraft!!
I think it is quite important that any aircraft can have all engines changed for safety reasons.
It would be far simpler and cheaper just to redesign the RR engines.
Even on the first day in service any new commercial jet engine design has flown for thousands of hours and been bench tested for further thousands of hours. It has had chickens thrown at it, ice thrown at it, water hosed through it and so on and so forth. The possibility of an actual design fault is very small.
SPECULATION: It seems far more likely that there is a manufacturing fault, either with this particular engine or with a certain batch of engines.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
dynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 765 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 50582 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 5): They send frozen chickens.
I don't know about engines, but for bird strike testing on structure they have to have live bids on hand to euthanise shortly before the test is conducted. My recollection is that the test has to be conducted within an hour of killing the bird.
AusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 50549 times:
With the recent SFO QF incident, it was interesting listening to the ATC audio (also vary calm captain in that case as well). Are the SIN ATC audio files available for listening anywhere?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16811 posts, RR: 57 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 50218 times:
SPECULATION: It seems far more likely that there is a manufacturing fault, either with this particular engine or with a certain batch of engines.
The latter possibility is the big problem. Another possibility is that whatever alloy they make their turbine disks out of may not be up to snuff. I'm not sure if RR forges their own or it's done for them by a supplier but that could well explain the T1000 and T900 failures.
anshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 478 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 50080 times:
In the video from Channel 9 News posted on the previous thread, the newsreader says that the the Rolls Royce engine costs $5 million. I know this is a bit off topic, but is this accurate? If I remember correctly, GE90-115B's cost $25 million a piece. Surely, there can't be so much of a difference in the prices, despite the size?
kalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 471 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 49810 times:
Disk becomes unusable for sure... But may there be a loss-loss situation? Combination of damages here and there is a dangerous thing with never-fail things going wrong. Like World Trade Center towers which should withstand both plane impact and fire.. but it turned out not their combination at the same time..
comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4671 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 49785 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): The latter possibility is the big problem. Another possibility is that whatever alloy they make their turbine disks out of may not be up to snuff. I'm not sure if RR forges their own or it's done for them by a supplier but that could well explain the T1000 and T900 failures.
Enjoying your stay at the Holiday Inn Express ?
The alloys in the turbine disks get tested up the yazoo - in aero structures it's all about crack propagation. I can assure you that there is no marking on the stress testing gauges called 'snuff'.
As for forging, there really is no difference between RR doing the forging vs. a supplier as the same inspections and quality control protocols are followed. Specialization of tasks and Learning Curve effects may favor the supplier actually.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6016 posts, RR: 55 Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 49534 times:
Quoting anshuk (Reply 14): In the video from Channel 9 News posted on the previous thread, the newsreader says that the the Rolls Royce engine costs $5 million. I know this is a bit off topic, but is this accurate?
Not accurate!
If you can find new Trent 900's at $5M, then please send me one. Then for sure I don't need to work more in my lifetime.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4777 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 49533 times:
Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 7): I don't know about engines, but for bird strike testing on structure they have to have live bids on hand to euthanise shortly before the test is conducted. My recollection is that the test has to be conducted within an hour of killing the bird.
Interesting. I'll look into that.
Quoting kalvado (Reply 9): My understanding of issue with this 380's accident is not that engine failed - but that engine tried to damage component which are not allowed to just fail
The engine failed in a rare way, but not a never seen before one. And I learned in the previous threads that it was taken into account when designing a plane : a turbine blade going postal shouldn't take out anything vital. Obviously that worked here, even if the damage is significant.
I found this interesting because some time ago I was asking about propeller planes and what happens when a blade decides to separate, and I was told it could slice through the cabin. There is some reinforcing of the fuselage but it's mainly against ice being thrown by the propeller, not blades.
So in both case the failure is known to happen, but no one tries to make it absolutely safe.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15869 posts, RR: 66 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 49489 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 20): And I learned in the previous threads that it was taken into account when designing a plane : a turbine blade going postal shouldn't take out anything vital. Obviously that worked here, even if the damage is significant.
A turbine blade would most likely have been contained. What seems to have happened here was a failure of the disc itself. The disc is the bit that the blades attach to.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4777 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 49407 times:
Sorry, with the bit about prop blades, I confused myself ! Shouldn't be up at 4am
The price of an A380 engine should be around 15 millions $, don't know if it's list price or closer to what is actually paid. Obviously you would buy at least 4, and thus far the airlines that use the Trents or the EAs bought them 48 at a time at least, so a serious discount is to be expected.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
XT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3129 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 49388 times:
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21): A turbine blade would most likely have been contained. What seems to have happened here was a failure of the disc itself. The disc is the bit that the blades attach to.
turbine blades are also hard to contain given small size and high velocity. Certainly far easier than the disk though.
Be interesting to see if they can figure out what parts made what holes where. Great opportunity to advance design incase of this kind of failure.
kalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 471 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 48878 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
The engine failed in a rare way, but not a never seen before one. And I learned in the previous threads that it was taken into account when designing a plane : a turbine blade going postal shouldn't take out anything vital.
As far as I understood, it's true mostly about control lines - and even then looks like there were issues with control of engine #1.
However I'm thinking more about structural effects. Extreme example - but still that's what actually happened with another plane due to uncontained engine failure: http://photos.palal.net/v/aviation/laxairport/AA762/IMG_5001.JPG.html
I believe it was mentioned that there was enough damage for the plane to fall out of the sky if only that happened in flight
blrsea From India, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1227 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 49480 times:
Can the FADEC or the FMS that sends signals to the engine cause the engine to behave abnormally? Or is there checks to ensure that it doesn't cross the design limits?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16811 posts, RR: 57 Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 50357 times:
Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
As for forging, there really is no difference between RR doing the forging vs. a supplier as the same inspections and quality control protocols are followed. Specialization of tasks and Learning Curve effects may favor the supplier actually.
So what you're saying is that it's not remotely possible that there's anything wrong with the manufacturing process.
jben From Australia, joined Aug 2006, 74 posts, RR: 4 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 50381 times:
Aw geez... not this again. Australia's favourite national sport of QANTAS bashing. Everytime someone has a heart attack onboard, engine surge, tire burst, a bad lunch, filght delay because of fog there is always national headlines, the same "shame QANTAS shame" letters to the editor or similar. It's umitigated bullshit.
Some of the articles make it seem like any aircraft with Rolls-Royce engines is a flying coffin. Also, the engine didn't actually explode. That would be quite different and with a much less happy outcome... Also, asking passengers what they think is wrong with the engine is just idiotic.
No carrier is going to change engines on their A380s. It would be very expensive and frankly totally unncessary. If every customer changed the engines on their aircraft everytime there was an uncontained failure or surge, could you imagine the chaos? Customers are compensated for this sort of thing at any rate. Even if a customer were so unhappy with their choice of engine they would change engine choice in a subsequent order (like BA did) or the manufacturer would replace the engines (such as in the case of the PW4098). Hell, RR had been paying QANTAS for years because the fuel consumption on the RB211-524G was above the amount on contract, and part of the reason why RR launched the RB211-524H/T (Trent technology insertion).
If anything, this incident is a wholesale endorsement of how well the A380 was designed/manufactured and how QANTAS crew are trained. It and they performed spectacularly well. Nobody was injured or killed. What more do you want?
RR has been doing this turbine thing for a little while now. They are rather good at it too. If there is an underlying fault with the Trent 900 family, then RR will fix it.
Aircraft engines are not designed to contain a turbine blade. They are designed to contain a fan blade, which makes its exit at a much lower energy level than an HPT blade. Also, every single turbine ever made has at least one AD.
As far as the turbine blades go, they are a safety critical part. This means that they are designed not to fail, as there is no practical way to contain them completely in the event of a failure. However, they can and do fail, as we have seen. There are alot of reasons turbine blades can fail, from problems when the alloy was originally forged (hard alpha inclusions), to machining problems, maintenance or lifespan issues.
In case you are wondering how strong a turbine blade is, you could hang a 100 ton weight from each turbine blade. If you then took the weight off, the turbine blade would not have stretched at all. RR is also rather special in that they use a combination of titanium single crystal blades (before the combustors really) and nickel superalloys (after).
Rolls-Royce does publish a list of things it does buy from outside (http://www.rolls-royce.com/suppliers/supplier_diversity/what_we_buy.jsp). The turbine blades are made by RR. There was actually a really neat TV show a few months ago about how RR makes engines and turbine blades on BBC2 (How to build... A Jumbo Jet Engine).
In summary, I think some people need to chill. RR is not going out of business. The Trent family remains incredibly safe and reliable. The A380 proved it is very well designed and built. QANTAS has proved that it has great crew. And I really wish people would stop with the QF bashing already. If you hate QF so much, just don't fly with them. Job done.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15869 posts, RR: 66 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 50235 times:
Quoting 413X3 (Reply 27): Has volcanic ash been ruled out as the cause?
Nothing has been officially ruled out, but I think it is safe to say that volcanic ash is not being considered. The incidents happened quite far away from any ash plume. Indonesia is a big place.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
25 DocPepz: I thought this is a very interesting take by Stephen Forshaw, an Australian who is former SIA VP Public Affairs and now Head of Public Affairs for Mic
26 413X3: The eruption in Iceland affected as far south as Spain.
27 flood: An update from The Australian: "ENGINEERS say an intermediate pressure turbine disc in the No 2 engine of QF32 failed, triggering the explosion that r
28 robffm2: How likely is it to encounter frozen chicken in flight?
29 Starlionblue: Granted. I was just reacting to the fact that some people seem to think that Singapore is right next to the volcano just because it is right next to
30 KFlyer: Flood, interesting link. Thanks. I believe Qantas could have better managed this crisis if they used social media.
31 Baroque: Just so as Rudyard Kipling famously wrote! I will be sure to let you all know when my rels report ash falling in Bandung which is about 150 km from M
32 tom355uk: A long, long time ago in the first thread I posted the following: Which means QF don't think that the failure is related to wear of the IP shaft coupl
33 art: True but the service celing of your average chicken is about 3ft.
34 Kaiarahi: A little off-topic, but see http://www.taic.org.nz/ReportsandSaf...G]skins/taicAviation/skin_aviation Full report has photos.
35 Baroque: And with the exception of a few diligent contributors, nobody has taken any notice of this hypothesis until the start of this thread??? [quote=flood
36 Klaus: Aren't we rather looking at a compressor disk having failed? From the photos so far, the turbine section of the engine appears to be completely intac
37 ltbewr: One of the other 'fallouts' of this A380 incident is that per news reports it has reduced the value of RR stock by 5%, or about $1 B USD. That in turn
38 Baroque: It does seem to be on the list of forthcoming attractions! Equally it has had a habit of calming down just as things looked really nasty. It is heavi
39 EPA001: With this many posts in three threads it is hard to notice everything. There are sadly enough many plane crashes which do not get near the same level
40 Starlionblue: I don't claim to be an expert on the engine. You may be right. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Yes, there was a one day dip. But the stock will r
41 KFlyer: Qantas to change engines The number three engine on an A380, registration VH-OQC, will be changed after an inspection in Sydney found abnormalities in
42 Kaiarahi: If accurate, this does suggest either a QF issue or an issue with a QF batch of engines, since SQ (and LH?) presumably carried out the same precautio
43 Baroque: Well according to reports from Alan Joyce, yes either late today (Sat) or Sunday. Not that clear which. However, the ABC posted an hour ago states "T
44 comorin: No, the point I am making is that we should not assume that RR is better at forging discs than a specialist supplier. All manufacturing processes are
45 Klaus: I'm of course no engineer in this field, but the large cutaway image in the RR brochure does seem to correspond to what we see in the photo. On secon
46 Starlionblue: It was posted earlier that QF has a higher powered version compared to SQ, so they are not exactly the same. Then again, that could be just a softwar
47 andrewtang: As far as I know, QF uses the same engines as SQ & LH but the EEC rating is different. QF (A380-842) SQ/LH (A380-841)
48 Kaiarahi: Good point. Does anyone know what the difference means in terms of temps? I'm also thinking of Baroque's point
49 Baroque: Please contact Stasium Polisi in Batam for further informasi about the IP stage!!! Or I think that is what it was. For me, looking at Fig 7 (which is
50 BOEING747400: Has the exact cause of the RR T900 engine failure been identified as of yet? If so, how will the correct the problem so that it doesn't arise again in
51 EstorilM: Agreed! Furthermore, if there is already an AD / TSB (not saying this issue is related to the already-published documents) listing issues with premat
52 Kaiarahi: Which other operators? There's only SQ and LH. As noted several times in this thread, SQ has carried out the inspection. And also:
53 trex8: The IPT is made by Rolls, the case by Volvo.
54 jetlife2: I have seen the one photo that was originally posted on pprune showing about a 1/3 sector of disk in the back of a pickup truck. Are there any other p
55 AustrianZRH: Are the higher thrust engines differently designed in some way or is it simply a couple of lines of code in the engine control software? Could the hi
56 tepidhalibut: Wrong. Every engine cert regulation I know of requires that ANY released single blade must be contained. JAR-E 810, CS-E 810, 33.94, all require the
57 traindoc: About the cost of the RR A380 engines. Apparently, Rolls Royce owns and maintains the engines for Qantas. They call this "power by the hour". Literall
58 747classic: To answer all questions over the higher thrust rating on the Qantas A380 aircraft : A380-842 aircraft (Qantas only) are equipped with RR RB211 Trent 9
59 TPAJAY: With all these engines being changed, I can't wait to see all the AN-124 traffic around the globe picking up and dropping off engines. I wouldn't thi
61 PYGMALION: That last photo shows the outboard side of the engine and the lost reverser structure. The turbine casing failure was on the inboard side closer to t
62 traindoc: The article from Flight Global also contained significant information about damage to the QF A380 caused by the engine failure. The pictures showing w
63 Klaus: At least the trajectory of the section that penetrated the wing. But the other pieces seem to have been quite busy all around...
64 Baroque: Ouch, seems I must practice a bit more reading from right to left. Sorry about that. Great response. There does seem to be a difference in the proble
65 PYGMALION: Once the big bang occurs, all kinds of things start to happen. The TR frame halves( not the translating parts) are linked at top and bottom. Once you
66 Klaus: Well, the question how much worse the damage would have had to be for that is still kind of crucial. The 380 like all large aircraft is multi-redunda
67 traindoc: To Klaus, That is why I said kudos to Airbus. Clearly the redundancies kept the plane in the air. By lucky, I mean that the failure was not catostroph
68 Klaus: The point of modern aircraft design is that even a severe malfunction such as this one is planned for and on its own must not be able to bring down t
69 cosmofly: In this particular incident, the luck is more about wing tank puncture than about engine trouble. If indeed the wing tank is punctured by a hot and s
70 Klaus: I'm not so sure. Exactly this kind of event is taken into account as far as I know when designing the wing and its systems. If a disintegrating turbi
71 cosmofly: The concord never exploded in mid air after its wing tank puncture. It caught fire and crashed.
72 lightsaber: Nitpick: If you can reduce the chance below a given threshold, than a severe malfunction could bring down the aircraft. For example, no plane would s
73 Klaus: a) Concorde flew on a grandfathered certificate. It would have had a very hard time getting one in more recent years. b) Concorde started burning bec
74 jetlife2: The following describes the general situation but I have no specific knowledge of the individual disk in question: Some engine OEMs have disk forging
75 airproxx: Why is this event so particular that it deserves a whole discussion on a-net, and a now three part thread?? Isn't it just another engine failure?? I j
76 aeropiggot: An uncontained engine failure is an engine manufacturer worst nightmare, and so too the airlines and the OEMs. The FAA and JAA etc. have stringent re
77 AusA380: I don't recall an A380 with such a significant issue. Major engine failure #2 engine, wing damage, fuel lines broken, #1 engine not fully controllabl
78 SEPilot: How about a precocious chicken? An uncontained failure is a big deal; this one is especially big because the engine is so new, and another RR engine
79 airproxx: Indeed.. But I can't stop thinking that if this didn't concern the A380, it wouldn't be such big deal. I recall the numerous troubles/failures occuri
80 tdscanuck: FADEC yes, FMS no. Yes, but that's what the FADEC does. If the FADEC itself goes bad, all bets are off. This situation is a design case...it's not lu
81 comorin: The #2 engine was quite controllable during flight. What happened was that the wiring for the fuel shutoff was affected and #2 could not be shut down.
82 Dizzy777: According to Airbus "This unique design also allows the Trent 900 to be transported easily, being the only A380 engine transportable whole in a 747F"
83 Klaus: The ATSB page has been updated: Qantas Airbus A380 inflight engine failure The new post contains a decent photo of the recovered portion of the turbin
84 DocLightning: This lends some credence to my theory that there is a repeatable manufacturing problem. Once is a fluke. Twice is not. Thrice (if you include the T-1
85 OldAeroGuy: It's probably about 33%. Disk failures typically involve the disk breaking into three nearly equal segments. The dispersion pattern of the disk segme
86 Klaus: No, that's quite a bit more than just 120°. You couldn't fit three of those into a circle. At the inner diameter it's not far from 180°. But that's
87 StuckInCA: Really? If a GE90 blows up mid flight and puts holes in a 777 wing then I'm guessing it'll get some buzz.
88 par13del: In flight shutdowns are common - in aviation terms -, how many of the GE90 problems were uncontained failures? I can think of at least two uncontaine
89 art: Still only about 3ft. Just gets there sooner.
90 par13del: Does this mean that they could not reduce fuel flow to zero, but were able to adjust for normal flight?
91 KFlyer: I'd be glad to learn what were the numerous issues. IIRC, there were only a few IFSD incidents - which is common for any type. I'm sure that no GE90
92 comorin: Yes. I'm the wrong guy to parse this but here goes: 1. The #1 engine responded normally to the FADEC/Throttle controls during all aspects of flight.
93 frmrCapCadet: Not asking for speculation. Just generic disk failures.
94 comorin: Point taken. The reason I bring this up is that forging a disk is like baking a cake - not a deterministic process! If we could get lattice structure
95 antskip: According to a report on Flight Global, another engine has been found to be wanting - the number three engine on VH-OQC - "The abnormalities in the nu
96 Baroque: You might need to give an expansion of that. I get the drift but not the exact meaning. As usual, more please. Nice way of putting it. Also presumabl
97 DocLightning: This is true, but the observation should inform checking of the disks in RR engines so as to bring them in line with GE/PW risk levels. Assuming that
98 XT6Wagon: They likely found signs of damage in accessable areas. Coked up oil, heat damage/markings, metal shavings, etc will show up even if you can't see the
99 Dizzy777: While it's NOT possible to inspect the disks without disassembling the engine, without knowing the scope and procedures of the inspection, one could
100 KFlyer: Australian safety board missing Qantas A380 engine disk evidence In particular the ATSB wants to retrieve the missing half of the number two engine's
101 astuteman: That pre-supposes they aren't already. GE or P+W could just as easily have 2 uncontained failures next year, and RR none. A funny thing, statistical
102 comorin: Very true, spoken like a true Black Belt?
103 gasturbineengr: Based on this photo I observe the following: The disk has separated into a classic hoop failure comprising 3 or more pieces. The piece in the photo m
104 Revelation: Thanks for making your first post an interesting one!
105 WingedMigrator: I always found Poisson statistics to be fishy.
106 Klaus: Interesting. Sounds like fun for the investigation team, especially if none or only a few of the blades can be recovered. How large do you estimate t
107 gasturbineengr: Very high. It seems that they have the primary fracture surface on this piece. This is extremely valuable. It is usual that the surface is heavily da
108 Klaus: That sounds very good under the circumstances. Not knowing the cause would certainly be one of the worst possible outcomes. That sounds the way it sh
109 Lumberton: At least five (!) engines being replaced according to this Australian news report. And not just QF's A380s, but it affects LH and SQ as well; first I
110 SEPilot: This is quite true. It is the one bugaboo about ETOPS; even though the likelihood of two unrelated engine failures on a single flight is vanishingly
111 Klaus: In such a case the decision would effectively be a political/psychological/economical one, depending on the response of the flying public to such an
112 Aesma: So, I hadn't to look far to find my answers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_gun It appears the chicken gun is used with recently killed chicke
113 Aesma: gasturbineengr : very good first messages indeed, welcome ! Isn't it possible that the recovered disk wasn't the cause of the failure, but rather suff
114 SEPilot: I will defer to gasturbineengr on this, but I would suspect that the failure originated in the disc. It must be designed so that the blades can break
115 OA260: Breaking news Qantas say they have found ''Anomalies'' in the A380's during testing 3 engines involved and the fleet will be grounded for longer than
116 rsomerfield: BBC reporting that Qantas thinks the A380 will be back in service within days... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11704166
117 gasturbineengr: It is certainly possible that the disk failure was caused by something else. So far we in the public know only "how" the disk failed, not "why". Ther
118 Baroque: Not sure if he is still repeating this: On Friday, Qantas said the engine failure on its flagship A380 might have been caused by a design fault or "m
119 Dizzy777: Yes it is the LATEST UPDATE......... Internal oil leaks are being investigated http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...tas-finds-issues-with-more-engi
120 DocLightning: First, gasturbineengr, let me echo everyone else in welcoming you aboard these merry and dysfunctional forums and for your very well-written and info
121 cpd: I doubt that will happen - and it'll only make things look worse. I think you'll see measured and careful responses in the media like we are seeing a
122 sunrisevalley: No, their 787's will be GE powered.
124 aussie747: Yes they were changing this engine on Saturday morning in SYD Small correction. Bank of Hong Kong owns all the A380 engines on Qantas, Yes Rolls Royc
125 biztravelr: Just found some breaking updates: Apparently Qantas will be changing out at least three of their Rolls-Royce Trent 900s on the A380. Lufthansa and SQ
126 Baroque: Indeed welcome, a timely addition to the a.net community. Higher temps presumably result from the higher rating on the QF engines. Could it be that R
127 cosmofly: The article said "Boeing's Trent 900 engine".
128 A480: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...-to-block-rolls-royce-engines.html Geez, RR is being attacked from all angles. Looks like they're having a BP m
129 Starlionblue: [/quote] Politics. What they say in public may well be a bit of PR. In private these companies have to work together for a long time to come. Souring
130 GRIVely: With these many Trents being removed for inspection how many replacement spares are available? Since the QF, LH, and SQ engines are different that mus
131 Dizzy777: IIRC they are the same base engine, thrust upgrades are gained through software upgrades.. I think it's mentioned somewhere further up in this thread
132 Starlionblue: Indeed. "All you need" is another electronic bit inside I believe. Can't take that long.
133 Dizzy777: It seems the engine failure on the QF A380 bears a striking resemblance to the incident where the Trent 1000 suffered a similar breakdown. http://au.n
134 tallguy14: What about the passengers? I'm envisioning thousands of frustrated Qantas passengers piling up at LAX. Is there a riot every night when the SYD and ME
135 aussie747: Straight out of QF big bosses mouth on Saturday however it is Bank of China (Hong Kong)
136 antskip: QF A380's grounded for at least 72 more hours, according to QF CEO on Australian ABC News channel. He is excellent.[Edited 2010-11-07 21:34:49][Edited
137 Starlionblue: I never doubt the capacity of either members of the press or upper management to get things wrong.
138 Baroque: Gawd help us all when he has a bad day then.
139 DocLightning: This is odd. If the fault is an oil leak, I wonder why the entire engine has to be removed. Unless the fault isn't an oil leak...
140 kiwimex: With the shortage of engines available and the wing damage to VH-OQA would I be correct in thinking they may pull engines #3 and #4 off VH-OQA to use
141 Singapore_Air: The articles are incorrect. Singapore Airlines has not replaced any engines as a result of the inspections conducted in the past few days.
142 mgmacius: Yeah, but what then? Drag it back to Tolouse? I think it would be much better to temporary fix number two and fly it to Airbus rather than using it a
143 ULMFlyer: Maybe they don't know yet where exactly the leak is originating. Or fixing said leak entails an engine tear-down anyway. Or perhaps if there's a leak
144 DocLightning: That would be difficult, I'd imagine. Would they not need to install some counter-weights to keep the whole thing from tipping up on its tail without
145 Baroque: Now why does that not surprise me? Not a moment to trust the run of the mill journos perhaps. But thanks for the information Singapore_Air.
146 kiwimex: Well, I'm thinking it's going to be some time before the wing is fixed. Are they going to fly that puppy with the wing damaged? Better off to get the
147 spacecadet: The quote that I saw on CNN was "what we found is slight anomalies, oil where it shouldn't be on the engines. And we are just trying to check what co
148 eggync: I saw that peple are comparing RR with GE/PW engines.....if I remember correctly, RR engines are with 3 shaft desidn........ LPT, IPT and HPT while GE
149 Klaus: No, that is correct. You can see the three spools in the schematic here: http://www.rolls-royce.com/Images/brochure_Trent900_tcm92-11346.pdf The inte
150 AirbusA6: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...a32e3e27d0d88287d6166f16570378.7e1 It does seem to be a problem with the higher thrust T900 version used by QF,
151 hawker: Mention in the TV news tonight that Qantas is facing a difficult repair job because of significant damage to the wing spar.
152 Starlionblue: Or perhaps they don't want to tell the reporters everything because reporters abridge, misquote and misinterpret more often than not. As mentioned ea
153 CHRISBA777ER: Just had an email from a contact at work, telling me Qantas A380-800 Nancy Bird Walton is going to be scrapped because the left wing join with the pyl
154 GBan: Well, if true that should put claims that we are talking about a minor incident to rest, I'd suppose. Even more reason to be glad about the outcome!
155 Flying Belgian: This would really be a crazy story, can't believe that such a damage (that didn't prevent the aircraft to land safely after a long holding period...)
156 mdword1959: Seems odd that such a momentous decision would be made so quickly.
157 jush: This obviously can't be true can it. Even if insurers wpuld not insure the 3 engine flight to Tolouse it would still be ok to get all the manpower to
158 Starlionblue: Ok so I'm not an expert but this triggers my baloney detector for several reasons: - Three engine ferries are not that uncommon. - Why would the pylo
159 CHRISBA777ER: My thoughts precisely. Just think its fairly sad that people are so desperate for it to happen that they make up emails about it and send them round
160 Klaus: Well, at least theoretically the disk could have caused massive vibrations before actually tearing apart. That might not be totally unbelievable, alt
161 mdword1959: Unless you thought the source was reliable, there was no real purpose in further disseminating this communication.
163 LifelinerOne: Even if this was true, I would think Airbus would step in and fly the plane under their insurance, or even buy it to sell it later as a VIP-plane. An
164 Burkhard: Such a decision is not taken in hours or a few days. It may be that someone has decided to propose this, but decisions about 200 00 000 $ are not take
166 slz396: I woudn't think so: the plane is sold to and operated by QF: if they think it is economically more viable to part out the plane than to do a costly s
167 tom355uk: Even less so from QF's point of view, as this would then become their very first jet writeoff. From memory, they spent an absolute fortune getting VH
168 Starlionblue: Fair enough. But in that case I think replacing the pylon is probably cheaper than scrapping a plane that is only a few years old.
169 Klaus: Again theoretically the pylon might have overstressed the wing structure, but this really sounds more and more dubious with each round...!
170 Baroque: Tempted to ask if you get many Emails from Leprechauns. But I will resist.
171 Burkhard: ... and all this payed by the insurance of RR ? Even if it were a clear writeoff, and for me it doesn't look like one, the discussion between the ins
172 2175301: I would not say that it would be too early to make an assessment like this if there was major structural damage (if the wing was obviously bent, etc)
173 kmz: just out of interest: have upper and lower wing panels been repaired already for big passenger jets and if yes, how would you do that? i can't recall
174 NAV20: I suppose that we are now entering the 'interesting phase' (the aftermath) of this incident. No-one got killed or even injured, and it looks as if th
175 Klaus: Indeed - all the excitement for us gawking bystanders and yet zero actual bloodshed! (Althought here will certainly be lots of red ink being spilled.
176 Revelation: I agree. It reminds me of the IB A340 in Quito that overran the runway. It took several different tours of experts and several months before it was d
177 NAV20: You bet, Revelation. Must confess to always having been 'lost in admiration' for the way that, despite the 'worldwide shortage' of A380s, Qantas (wit
178 SEPilot: That was my meaning; but I did not express it properly. Thanks for the correction. The legal status of aircraft defects is very different than other
179 747classic: The full rated Take Off''s, produced by the higher rated engines of the Qantas A380-842's, especially on the pacific routes, could have caused excessi
180 LTC8K6: So QF is running "overclocked" Trent 900's?
181 666wizard: jben - great post - welcome to my respected users list
182 Aesma: That's not really difficult, you just have to no forget about it.
183 PYGMALION: Normally the manufacturer writes a service bulletin and then the certification folks make that SB mandatory by AD. The service bulletin can be no cha
184 par13del: Well if we want idle speculation, AIG a former large insurer also owned an a/c leasing company, so internally the head company could look at switchin
185 BOEING747400: What is the thrust rating of the EA engines of the Emirates & AF A380 aircraft? Does EA have an identical or similar problem with oil leaks and/or
186 Bralo20: Isn't there much composite used in those areas?
187 virgin744: sounds like they're doing something different! Other airlines using Roll-Royce powered A380s have continued to fly them without any major disruption.
188 litz: Re: the wing damage, and fixing it ... At the absolute outside, a new wing could be fitted. It's been done before (and probably will be again). Most f
189 kanban: I agree we haven't seen the underside of the wing... and the way wings are manufactured, replacing the chords, stringers,and maybe the lower panel is
190 WingedMigrator: The logistics of moving such a large object as an A380 wing would be a major stumbling block.
191 OldAeroGuy: For the A380, I think you mean barge it in.
192 comorin: How is the fail-safe design of a disc implemented? I imagine failure occurs because of excessive torque, so does it make sense that to avoid this, spl
193 litz: Dimensionally, does an A380 wing exceed the interior cargo space of the AN225 ? If so ... well ... then it ain't gettin' there unless it's tied to the
194 fca767: No no no no! Please look below They get born like this in the first place on a barge Look go to 4 mins if you dont want to watch all of it http://www
196 mgmacius: That would be hysterical! But on the other hand it would be huge thing for both companies - they are finally working together (blah, blah, blah...) N
197 Revelation: The Dreamlifter is not a big enough dream to lift an A380 wing. 787 wings just barely fit into the Pickle: Whereas the A380 wingspan is 20 m longer t
198 SEPilot: From what I have gathered, the most likely cause of failure is the origination of a crack in one of the blade pockets propagating through the disc mo
199 antskip: An article on the front page of Australian newspaper this morning http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...oblem/story-e6frg95x-1225949668495 says that
200 AirbusA6: Airbus uses barges to float the A380 wings from Wales to Toulouse. Floating a replacement wing from Wales to Singapore would be a rather longer journe
201 antskip: The QF CEO seemed distinctly icy when RR's name came up in his PR conference yesterday. Did QF make a mistake when they chose RR? Would they have bee
202 Lumberton: Qantas A380s to be grounded through 11 Nov. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...20Through%20Nov.%2011&channel=comm "...until at least Nov.11"..
203 litz: Cross-ocean like this, I'd think it would almost assuredly go in a cradle, and into the cargo hold of a freighter ... Would have to be a pretty big b
204 Aesma: Ah ah, I like that analogy, posting from an overclocked computer ! It's not a perfect science. And I'm wondering, was the higher thrust Trent 900 tes
205 Starlionblue: SIN is not exactly a small airport in the middle of the boonies. Any repairs could likely be performed there, although it might be cheaper to perform
206 mal787: Well said, but unfortunately people will still bash the daylights out of QF , and some of them have/never will fly with them and see what a good airl
207 pliersinsight: What about the An-225? would a wing structure fit in there or maybe in a pod on top?
208 Aesma: Maybe he (and others) are confused because there is what I would call a barge on some of the route, using inland canals, see Revelation's picture abo
209 antskip: I am not sure the issue is about QF at all, but about Rolls Royce. If the latest reports are correct, it is increasingly likely there is a big proble
210 EPA001: I guess it will not fit in that giant either. Look at how thick and wide the A380 wing is at the join to the fuselage of the airplane. That is way an
211 Decromin: Buran-style perhaps? That would be interesting, but I think it's a little early to be expecting a full wing replacement. There probably won't be a de
212 EPA001: According to this link from Reuters RR is making progress with their analysis on what might have caused the Trent-900 blow on the QF-A380. http://www.
213 Baroque: So it is, and still a bit smaller than Airbus would have preferred for the A380. Well the Trent 980-84. is listed out to 84,098 lbs, way above the ra
214 ltbewr: I would presume that RR, Airbus, QF, supplier companies and all other parties all have insurance to cover there possible liability. I suspect the inve
215 tdscanuck: Yes. Any repair would be exterior flush...all the new material would be on the inside to preserve the mold line. Yes, if it's at or behind the spar.
216 Aesma: I'm not sure the 980-84 is certified, considering the A389 isn't even launched. Clearly they made the 900 family "evolutive", let's hope the incident
217 Baroque: Thanks for that. A much (MUCH) better article than the one from SKY which had a headline about "RR pinpointing" the problem, nothing about that. Just
218 comorin: Thank you for clearing that up. Thanks. IIRC, we have on mode of failure, involving cracks, fatigue and cyclic loads. The other is when the object is
219 2175301: A freely spinning disc should fail from the outer rim where the centripetal forces (stress) are highest. However, a complication arrises when a disc
220 JAAlbert: So if Qantas is replacing three engines, a few questions from your A-net lay audience: 1. Just how many extra of these massive machines does Qantas ha
221 Airvan00: I can answer the 4th question. Somewhere up thread it is mentioned that the engine can be transported by a 744 freighter. The 5 aircraft grounded are
222 antskip: not so, according to a report by John Ostrower on http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/ - which says that while the QF Trents have a 72,00
223 Dizzy777: "The three-shaft architecture inspired the Trent family evolutionary concept which makes the Trent 900 design simple with excellent performance reten
224 Starlionblue: The current variant has presumably been run at 80k or close to it for hours as part of certification. There's a big pad factor built in. It's not lik
225 Baroque: Being planned for the heavier variants does not mean that RR have not certified them at those ratings. John O does not say they have not, and RR (op
226 Baroque: Thanks, similar to what I was writing as you posted.
227 tdscanuck: Yes, although I'm not aware of any engine OEM that does their thrust determination in flight...that requires a specially calibrated load cell. To be
228 antskip: I think that is now seriously in question! This engine, as supplied to QF, does not appear to "take it"! And if the only difference between the QF ve
229 Baroque: You do persist. Either that or show QF in a poor light, or mayhap, more likely both in not such a good light.
231 DocLightning: Why? If they would like an aircraft in service and generating revenue ASAP, waiting for a new A380 delivery is hardly the way to go. It's not like th
232 astuteman: But by no means impossible. Either way, I suspect rumours of it being necessary to replace a whole wing will turn out to be, er, unfounded Airbus use
233 gemuser: Doc - I'm sure the engineers on here will give you a better answer, but the short answer is "mass". Your basic equation for this stuff is F=MA, that
234 tdscanuck: Although mass is certainly a factor, it's velocity that's the real problem. The smaller spools spin *much* faster (as much as an order of magnitude)
235 NAV20: Entirely depends on the extent of the damage to the airframe and the prospects for a 'perfect' repair, Doc. One has to bear in mind that Qantas (quit
236 Starlionblue: That's why I put "know" in quotes... It's not just the maximum rating that is different (by less than 3% btw). It is operations procedures, maintenan
237 Dizzy777: For QF it will also come down to saving face, Not wanting to have a hull loss. OJH cost a lot of $$$ to fix, more than what the insurance covered (wa
238 Burkhard: I expect the aircraft will get a temporary repair that will allow to fly it to Toulouse without payload and maybe a refuel in between, and be complete
239 Baroque: But what happens between maintenance events. That presumably is down to QF. Or does RR have an engineer based at EVERY airport where the A380 touches
240 AustrianZRH: I think that will depend on if QF has complied with all maintenance instructions I'm pretty sure they have been given by RR. If they did it's RR's fa
241 Panman: All I've done so far is oil em, change fuel/oil filters and send em on their way. Oh couple AOG component changes too. Nothing major. I presume the V
242 jupiter2: BTW Baroque, QF only fly the 380 to 5 ports, not exactly a lot for RR to cover even if they do have their own techs and if they do, the costs for them
244 gemuser: In a "power by the hour" agreement the buying airline normally has NO maintenance responsibility, it is entirely with the engine provider. The user h
245 kmz: does that also include the little checks you do between flights or where is the line normally drawn? (excuse my ignorance...)
246 Starlionblue: There was nothing wrong with the engine. The #2 issue had severed the fuel cutoff control line and thus the engine couldn't be shut down. This is a s
247 Baroque: Makes you wonder if they should have a little "reset" button on the end of the wing or somewhere safe to shut the damned thing down without flooding
248 kmz: does this mean that (in this case) the engine was under full control during the flight (as was suggested in an interview, IIRC) but they couldn't cut
249 SLCPilot: Maybe I have a simple misunderstanding of the way a gas turbine works, but there have been multiple references to the turbine blades having MUCH great
250 PITingres: The low-pressure turbine does. The high-pressure and (in a triple spool like the RR's) intermediate spools are running as much as 10x faster than the
251 Starlionblue: Perhaps. But the cost of a little reset button would be way to big for the marginal benefit. Also it would be subject to damage if, say, a turbine di
252 Baroque: Assuming by "fan" you mean the front element of the engine, for the LP turbine right, for the others wrong. Wrong for 2 spools and very wrong from 3
253 SEPilot: The outer rim of the disc has slots for the turbine blades. Any corner is a stress concentration point, and the most likely point for a crack to star
254 bikerthai: So Astuteman answered the question on whether a new wing can be shipped. To close out the barge question . . . Yes there are ocean going barges. The
255 Revelation: And if Abe Lincoln didn't get shot there, no one would have ever heard of Ford's Theater. Your point? Yes, but as above, after running an hour or so
256 comorin: Gentlemen, I'm very grateful for your taking the time to answer my questions. Intuitively, I leave with a visual model of concentric hoops being stre
257 Klaus: Showing our age a bit, are we? I doubt that many engineers today even know how to use these any more. (I actually do, but I was in the last generatio
258 moderators: This thread will be locked for further contributions. If you would like to continue your discussion on this topic, please feel free to contribute in p
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